My Last Ditch Effort

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As far as I can tell from visiting far too many churches it is usually a small subset of Christians, in these
churches that are genuine Christians.

And more true for online forums as well, a very small subset.
I am not a institutional "churchy" kind of person but I do think the behaviour of the congregation often reflects on the very poor leadership of the pastor.
Sadly, most people fall into the "cult of personality" pit which does not help.

The churches are not my concern they are the Lord's concern.

I see it as... since we have the epistles written to believers, that the "ekklesia" is our concern as well and the leaders of the church have been given a framework to follow, the failure to follow the guidance of scripture is why we are where we are.
But really it did not take long for the Good News to become corrupted, just read the writings of the so called "early church fathers."
The gathering is for believers, because they are the called out ones.
 
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You realize that Paul was running into some of the problems that you noticed.

That is why he wrote some of his letters to clear up so many issues, swirling through the churches.

Because people don't change the way they behave then, it holds true, that the church will operate
in a similar manner.

As far as I can tell from visiting far too many churches it is usually a small subset of Christians, in these
churches that are genuine Christians.

Christian Forums are fun.

You may have a far to lofty expectation of Christian churches in general.

The churches are not my concern they are the Lord's concern.

Your commentary is valid and always will be but remember we are saved by grace in the first
instance. We do not boast but we only boast in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Surveys say that about 4% of churchgoers are born again. Billy Graham in his later years said much the same thing. Having said that, believers are supposed to be salt and light. Sometimes we need to say something of the truth in love. We can either ignore the problem, be part of the problem or be part of the answer. You are a member of the body, like it or not. So yes, the church is your concern. If nothing else, pray for the church.
 
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Surveys say that about 4% of churchgoers are born again. Billy Graham in his later years said much the same thing. Having said that, believers are supposed to be salt and light. Sometimes we need to say something of the truth in love. We can either ignore the problem, be part of the problem or be part of the answer. You are a member of the body, like it or not. So yes, the church is your concern. If nothing else, pray for the church.

4%.. I figured it was low, but woah......explains a lot.
 
And more true for online forums as well, a very small subset.
I am not a institutional "churchy" kind of person but I do think the behaviour of the congregation often reflects on the very poor leadership of the pastor.
Sadly, most people fall into the "cult of personality" pit which does not help.



I see it as... since we have the epistles written to believers, that the "ekklesia" is our concern as well and the leaders of the church have been given a framework to follow, the failure to follow the guidance of scripture is why we are where we are.
But really it did not take long for the Good News to become corrupted, just read the writings of the so called "early church fathers."
The gathering is for believers, because they are the called out ones.

If you read the epistles, especially Paul's, nothing in today's church is a new problem. The problems you see today are roughly 1990 years old, i give the church a small grace period before the problems start arising, but I would not be surprised to find out I am being far too generous towards the church.
 
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4%.. I figured it was low, but woah......explains a lot.
Back in the 70's my late mentor was saved, about the same time as me. He had an appreciation for the Lord that I lacked and a close relationship that few have even after years. He was attending a Pentecostal church. Oddly, I became a member there just after he left.

He was troubled by what he observed. God showed him a vision of two radar screens. They were both covered in green dots. But one screen had a few red dots. The Lord said to him that the red dots were those that He identified as believers. In that place, it was about 3%. He told me this several years after I left that church. It explained a great deal.

I met my mentor a few months after I left the Pentecostal church. We had a small, home based fellowship for nearly 30 years. The others moved away and only my wife and I are left of the original group. One day we may start up again, but we wait on God for that.
 
1) A married junior pastor who seduced the married women he was supposed to be counseling.
2) A senior pastor who covered up a junior pastor seducing women he was supposed to be counseling and let him start a new church instead of calling the police.
3) That same junior pastor, starting a new congregation with my friends.
4) Me and my wife attending this church, recognizing something was amiss because the pastor was running the church on his personality and not the Spirit of God, and leaving this church.
5) My friends deriding us for leaving because we had no "evidence" of wrongdoing.
6) My "friends" discovering the truth about the pastor and ignoring what they said to and about us.
7) Us finding a church with another pastor being adulterous.
8) Us finding and leaving another church running on the personality of the pastor, which fell apart years later.
9) Us finding a church with a private school for our children. The school admittedly hired teachers out of a sense of ministry. One teacher had severe mental issues, but the school overall was incompetent and allowed cheating and misbehavior. We left that church. The school fell apart, and the principal of the school acknowledged we were right, only years later, and the pastor had fired her in the meantime for trying to clean it up.
10) Churches that wouldn't address grievances or follow Matthew 18. They didn't allow or deal with dissent.
11) Churches that allowed cliques, gossip, backbiting, destroying of relationships, etc...
12) Churches that allowed shacking up.
13) Embezzlement.
14) Extreme materialism with the pastor.
15) Definite racism.
16) A promise that their church wasn't a Word of Faith church, and then the next Sunday, being told by the pastor about a man who didn't want to tithe because of financial hardship, tithed anyway, and that next year, bought a recreational vehicle. The pastor then told the congregation that if they started tithing, he would return their money if things didn't go well for them.
17) Churches where members don't even try to understand the Bible.
18) Parents with children who had severe mental and physical retardation, being encouraged to put as much money as they could into large Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets to prove their faith and get their children healed.
19) "Christians" in my family telling us about gold dust falling from the ceiling and miracles occurring in groups like "Women Aglow". Prophets, prophetesses, prophecies, words of knowledge, tongues, and interpretations, phony gold tooth miracles, other false miracles, false teachings, declarations of demonic possession and deliverances, declarations of healings without evidence,
20) Witnessing ministries like Jehovah's Witnesses, Joel Osteen, Mormonism, The PTL Club, Charisma Magazine, The Christian Broadcast Network, Paul Crouch and the Trinity Broadcasting Network, more Charismatic preachers than you can shake a stick at, and on and on... The point being, they thrive while barely being challenged.
21) Most recently, a church that rejected my appeal for a very MINOR bit of help with my wife, who has dementia. No "Christian" in our ten years of dealing with dementia has ever asked what my wife is experiencing or made a serious attempt at finding out if they can help. They do, however, ask how she is. They are satisfied when I say, "She's in good spirits." I never say anything different, and no one has noticed.

Reading through your list makes me think that living a righteous life wasn't even on their bucket lists.
 
And more true for online forums as well, a very small subset.
I am not a institutional "churchy" kind of person but I do think the behaviour of the congregation often reflects on the very poor leadership of the pastor.
Sadly, most people fall into the "cult of personality" pit which does not help.



I see it as... since we have the epistles written to believers, that the "ekklesia" is our concern as well and the leaders of the church have been given a framework to follow, the failure to follow the guidance of scripture is why we are where we are.
But really it did not take long for the Good News to become corrupted, just read the writings of the so called "early church fathers."
The gathering is for believers, because they are the called out ones.

I have read some of those letters (early church fathers) and I am not impressed.

Paul said that the church would be corrupted.

Acts 20:29
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

We were warned but we did not understand.
 
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Thank you all for your generous patience with me.
Don't lose heart. Lord Jesus is building His church. Nothing can stop Him. The true church has not been corrupted. It is Christ in us the hope of glory. God has always had the remnant that remain clean and who overcome.

Many years ago I was complaining about the state of the church. The Lord told me, "I have 7,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal." No, I'm not Elijah, but I know how he felt.
 
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I have read some of those letters (early church fathers) and I am not impressed.

Paul said that the church would be corrupted.

Acts 20:29
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

We were warned but we did not understand.

I agree, I think it was corrupted before Constantine.
We still do not understand. :(
 
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I agree, I think it was corrupted before Constantine.
We still do not understand. :(

I would place the change in the church to around 70 CE after the Jerusalem temple fell. According to Acts the temple was important still to the church into the late 50's at least and "God's house on earth" only fell when God's people were not doing the proper things according to the OT. That meant revise what is being done rapidly, quite plausibly causing a split with one group supporting the Law against those who did not and the other group seeking to emphasize the Law as no longer of major importance. And quite plausibly both groups emphasizing that some things could not be admitted to the Romans, so keep those things quiet by any means necessary.
 
I agree, I think it was corrupted before Constantine.
We still do not understand. :(

One of the most profound events in earth's history.

A bundle of fairly simple letters written to some churches.

Yet, even though they are fairly simple to read no one can agree on anything they say.

How does that work?
 
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One of the most profound events in earth's history.

A bundle of fairly simple letters written to some churches.

Yet, even though they are fairly simple to read no one can agree on anything they say.

How does that work?

It really is something.

Sadly, we cannot even agree on the simple Good News.
 
I would place the change in the church to around 70 CE after the Jerusalem temple fell. According to Acts the temple was important still to the church into the late 50's at least and "God's house on earth" only fell when God's people were not doing the proper things according to the OT. That meant revise what is being done rapidly, quite plausibly causing a split with one group supporting the Law against those who did not and the other group seeking to emphasize the Law as no longer of major importance. And quite plausibly both groups emphasizing that some things could not be admitted to the Romans, so keep those things quiet by any means necessary.

Well there we go "new converts" unable to break away from the law and we are still in the some place today.
 
I am not a institutional "churchy" kind of person but I do think the behaviour of the congregation often reflects on the very poor leadership of the pastor.
Having worked "business to business for most my life, I've observed that the head of any organization will for the most part set the tone for those in that organization. If a company owner is kind and polite, the people will tend to be that way. When the owner is stingey and demanding, the same thing, the people will tend to be that way.

Our church has very solid teaching by pastors that live it. And by the same token I've been in churches where the pastor is shallow, and the people tend to be that way.

Much love!
 
It really is something.

Sadly, we cannot even agree on the simple Good News.

I know we can't because there are so many versions of the gospel.

And more importantly, they all think there's is the correct gospel.

Even if you can prove that they are incorrect that makes no difference, they just ignore you.

This is a form of madness; you understand this don't you.

We are not discussing politics or economics we discuss the subject of immortality!
 
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The reason for this thread is that I am on a quest.
I have been looking for Christians who have had similar experiences to mine and have come to the same conclusions. Hopefully, to find people who walk in the same spirit as me, and to be able to support and encourage each other.

I will give you these two scriptures and let you research, pray, and meditate for more on your own. I know the whole thing about "there is no such thing as a perfect church" and "the church is a hospital for sinners", and "if you find the perfect church, don't join it because then it won't be perfect". Please avoid all the cliches and stereotypes.
Matthew 5:48 and Ephesians 5:27 are just a few reasons I pursue perfection. I won't copy and paste scriptures for you. Those tactics are fruitless. I doubt many people go through those lists.
I know what people think about perfection, but that shouldn't preclude them from acting beyond reproach as God's Spirit prompts them.

It occurred to me that maybe, since the church is basically corrupt and too ill to walk with God, in my view, there is a faction of people who are still committed to waiting out this spirit of evil that has taken over the organized body of religion, hoping for revival. They obey the scriptures of meeting with "believers" until the true believers can figure out how to identify each other and become serious about the calling that Christ has placed on their lives.

I recently interacted with a "bishop" of the new Global Methodist Church. He left what he calls the evil of the United Methodist Church to begin this brand new denomination. The people starting this new "moral" church are the same people who allowed the old denomination to become corrupt financially and sexually.
He insisted that I should be a part of an organized church, preferably the GMC (Because it is of the John Wesley tradition. He loves the word "tribe".), and obey the chain of command and bureaucracy.

He never explained how denominations relate to 1 Corinthians 1:12.

In other words, they used to belong to the true church when the UMC used to be healthy, and let it become evil, and now they belong to the new, healthy church. I guess if that church is recognized as bad, they will start a new healthy church, and on and on.

It reminds me of when I was accused of being a church butterfly by people who, years later, left their churches.

So, does anybody here belong to a healthy church? I have never met anyone who doesn't think poorly of and make excuses for their own churches.
The church where I got saved, the pastor patted me on the back, and that was the extent of my discipleship.

The counsel I have received here on this site is that I am just looking for someone to blame for my personal problems, so I've already heard that. We will call that "Stereotype #1" to save time. Just post Stereotype #1 and don't make me read anything more. I've heard it all.

Here were my church choices over the past 50-some years:

1) A married junior pastor who seduced the married women he was supposed to be counseling.
2) A senior pastor who covered up a junior pastor seducing women he was supposed to be counseling and let him start a new church instead of calling the police.
3) That same junior pastor, starting a new congregation with my friends.
4) Me and my wife attending this church, recognizing something was amiss because the pastor was running the church on his personality and not the Spirit of God, and leaving this church.
5) My friends deriding us for leaving because we had no "evidence" of wrongdoing.
6) My "friends" discovering the truth about the pastor and ignoring what they said to and about us.
7) Us finding a church with another pastor being adulterous.
8) Us finding and leaving another church running on the personality of the pastor, which fell apart years later.
9) Us finding a church with a private school for our children. The school admittedly hired teachers out of a sense of ministry. One teacher had severe mental issues, but the school overall was incompetent and allowed cheating and misbehavior. We left that church. The school fell apart, and the principal of the school acknowledged we were right, only years later, and the pastor had fired her in the meantime for trying to clean it up.

The closest they come to telling me they would like to help is that they aren't good at texting. (In a text.)

At this site, Christian Chat, I only see vain arguments, quarrels, and members talking past each other in petty pursuits. I don't see resolution or communication, much less a body working together. If there is anyone here looking for solutions, I haven't found them. Just page after page of blather.
I guess this is my last-ditch effort, hoping that word can get around and maybe I can find one or two people who can relate. You would have to repent of being a member here.
Maybe I'll get banned. If I do, I'll have my answer.


I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU GO ALONG TO GET ALONG IN THE "CHURCH" AND HAVEN'T KNOWN WHAT TO DO!!

To be fair, it seems like your opening monolog was much of what I have seen too from churches that are not firmly rooted in the word of God and "NOT Spiritual."

Gal 6:1 says: 6 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

The context of the one who is "Spiritual" means a mature elder in the faith. "Perfect" as Jesus was saying to be in Matthew 5:48 means complete. Perfect doesn't mean:

One has arrived where there is no more temptation or testing, or they are now out of the sanctification process. Everything you listed in the negative experience the Lord Himself spoke on you will find that in MATTHEW CHAPTER 23.

Sexual sin by pastors or ministers is far from removed from the church. FYI Paul addressed this in 1Corintians chapter 2:13-16, 3:18-23, 5:1-12.

When one doesn't deal with the sin in their own life that which is in the heart hidden from men but not God. That kind of sin is waiting to manifest in the person and will come out in Sexual, stealing, abusive sins.
The Satan will always send devils to cause an effective church many issues: division, deceptiveness, and delusions.


how does one fight this?

1 Constant and effective prayer
2. Adhering to and teaching the full word of GOD
3. Protect the children and the youth from predators and create an environment where this is taught and known we all are watching.
4. wise counsel and appropriate interaction at all times with the opposite sex.


Things that should never be done as a minster: (some of these things are from my own requirements that I believe to be praiseworthy you do not have to agree)

1. counsel opposite sex without an elder man with men or an elder woman with women
2. Allow men who have an addiction to pornography to continue minister and not receive godly counsel from a minimum of 1 -2 years
3. Not removal of anyone in ministry who has had an adulterous affair.
4. Not to removal anyone from ministry who has made it known they have an addiction of any kind
4. not to report any abuse to authorities of children, women or men when it has been made known to you.
5. cover up any abuse in the church


You a who are "spiritual" means mature in the faith, one of a good report and beyond reproach are to restore one weak in the faith.

How do you restore one in the faith?

They must be separated and removed from the office until they have repented and surrendered to GOD and set free from the sin.
this can be done in many ways and the use of many tools to help. Removal from the church building doesn't mean kicked out of the body of Christ. Depending on what has happened will determine what can be done.

sexual addiction: if they are a single man or women there are many programs that are very successful that are Christ centered. I had one young man who had been sexually abused by one of his own family members. This was a very tormented young man. Because he was 17, I had to seek legal advice to ensure all were protected. We provided counseling, support, and report to the family of what was said and how we could help heal the family. This is not a popcorn session where one allows those in the pews to know all. But there are to be a accountability for all involved.
Rubbing with oil and a crying at the alter two Sundays doesn't mean one is healed and set free.

It takes weeks and even years in some cases. But if the person doesn't what your help or is not submissive to correction that person will be asked to leave to ensure protection of the whole fellowship. Protecting the person doesn't mean covering up it, means helping one overcome.
There is no perfect church. IF you find one, when you get inside it will no longer be perfect.

However, there are wise, prudent and mature churches. I say pray and support the local fellowship.

IF you see and issue, ask the pastor how you can help them overcome. Instead of running all over saying how bad one's experience in church is "You who are "spiritual." What are you doing to restore one weaker in the faith as you have discernment of what the problem is what are you doing about it?

sound of the ball dropped in your court........
 
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I'm getting closer to understanding what this is that is so difficult to reconcile.
You should see the things I write that I don't post. No, you shouldn't.
I'm in the process of reading and rereading your posts.
I'm shaking off some rigid attitudes; it's taking me a minute.
Y'all have written some good stuff.

In the meantime, please read this essay I wrote for a Health Care company's contest entry.
It won a runner-up prize among almost 600 contestants. $250.00 gift card. Not too shabby.

I was pleased with it. I think it captures the kind of relationship I had and now miss very much.

https://www.shieldhealthcare.com/co...al-caregiver-story-contest-runner-up-tracy-d/
 
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