My Last Ditch Effort

[Aaron56]

FYI, my water feature is a pond-less kit with water flowing through large stones on top of crates to the pump sump.
I do not operate it continuously but only while I am viewing it, and I do not have an auto-refill capability, so I turn on
the hose while viewing to compensate for water loss due to splattering, evaporation and micro-cracks in the cement
that I missed patching or occur later in the operational season when it is too hot for me to want to bother repatching.

Sounds nice. We have upper and lower ponds with a 7 foot sluice between them. The water falls into the lower pond. I relined it last year. My pump went out (5 years old) so I'll be replacing it this year.

I almost filled it in. I'm glad I decided against it. Everyone who visits is drawn to it.

 

[pinebeach]

Here is the link to the actual thread in case anyone cares to read it. I don't blame you if you don't.

Controversial or finally the truth

I posted a link to a very long video about Bethel Church in Redding, CA. Nothing to do with anyone in this forum, but a video about the responsibility of the leaders in that church to be forthcoming about the false prophets and the way they have supported them.
If anyone knows anything about this church, you know it's way out there. A few yrs back, there were discussions in this forum about that church and other false and misleading Charismatic movements including IHOP which has gone down in flames.

I simply wanted to make known what is happening in some circles and the, finally, way leaders in this movement are being called to account, not for their actions, but for hiding the actions of those who have hurt people and abused them spiritually.

So along comes mr underdog and posts this:

Thank you for this thread, it's the main reason I joined here. post 11 in that thread

Please keep in mind I was not inviting people to generally come on board and discuss all their gripes and complaints with churches in general. I specifically just wanted to point out the ongoing challenges at Bethel.

If you want to see his entire post, what follows after that, please go to the thread because his response is personal and I don't even know all these organizations he went on and on about.

He did end that 1st post with: I have too many anecdotes to share here at one time. As I get to know each of you, I'm willing to tell them.

I was surprised, but having had a bad spiritual experience myself, I at first, was empathetic. You can read how I responded to him in post 12, even telling him I was glad to have him there.

More to follow

 

[Underd0g]

Be careful when you reference casual encounters for you do not know how long I associated with specific churches and/or their pastors. Some of these "casual" encounters covered years, the pastor was incapacitated for a time and I covered for him. Subsequently I was the desired backup when he was not available for one reason or another. Now if you call that casual ....

As for "sins", we can all find individual actions we object to in others or ourselves, while ignoring multiple others. Personally, I recognize what specific Sin drives in myself, and since the Bible and modern science both imply that the exact same issue is at play in ALL humans, I mitigate what I get excited about to the most extreme examples of the actions or non-actions this all-trouble-causing Sin provokes, as no one will become totally free of it while living on this earth. Self-righteousness is merely one specific example of this foundational Sin.

If your self-righteousness is a reference to me, then it would be impossible for anyone to confront anybody else for any of their sins.
I'm following my conscience.
What sins do you condone in the church, and what sins do you condone in yourself?
Why would perfection not be a goal?
Where do you draw the line?
I admit it's a tough question. Gray areas and existentialism are something everyone deals with on their own. I have only a small amount of influence or responsibility. I'm trying to do right. As you disagree, I listen. If I don't change my mind, we'll go on our way.

I'm not taking anything personal; I hope neither are you. (Referring to the self-righteousness comment.)

I have a list somewhere of a bunch of scriptures that encourage maturity and perfection.
So what if I don't accomplish absolute perfection?
I've conquered addictions and inclinations, and I could help others do the same.
If they don't want to shed themselves of those sins, so be it. If they are self-satisfied, then that is how they will live their lives.
My responsibility isn't with anyone but those within my sphere of influence. It might be with some here and others not.
This conversation will pass.

 

[pinebeach]

Post 2 regarding
Controversial or finally the truth

From there, since he saw he had an audience with a sympathetic ear, myself, he listed 'suggestions' as to how the church could be 'improved.'

here is #3 of that list:

3) Expand Matthew 18: 15-20 to include interchurch relationships. I did my best to resolve conflicts with my brother, who went to a different church, but I was rejected. I followed the most gentle of protocols. I know someone is hiding something if he won't meet with his pastor in a conflict.

The most gentle of protocols as you did here? You have never expressed anything to me regarding your complaint you have expressed here so kind of doubt you were 'gentle' to others as well.

and here is #4 of the same list:

4) Require all legitimate questions be answered and issues be addressed publicly when necessary. This, I would think, is self-explanatory. The resolution of almost every argument I've had has been thwarted by the muddying of waters and obfuscation.
When both parties are forthright, the subject matter doesn't get lost in the trivial.
Trust the congregation to decide if a grievance is simply based on selfishness or mental illness.

For the record, mr underdog forgot to talk to me privately if he had a 'grievance' against me as scripture directs but instead went public in this forum and it seems he may have done the same in, his words, many churches he has attended. Now I don't know about others here, but I have actually been in ministry for years, worship leader, counsellor, teacher, sunday school and so on. I say that because if anyone else here has had that experience, I am sure I don't have to tell you about certain people who cause problems, want to make a big show about it and label the pastor and others as guilty. Such, seems to be mr underdog.

My response to that in post # 18 same thread in question

He also gave another poster in that thread a hard time, misunderstood him and told him he belonged to a 'false' group.

Continued in another post

 

[Underd0g]

Here is the link to the actual thread in case anyone cares to read it. I don't blame you if you don't.



So along comes mr underdog and posts this:

Three snarky sentences.

...and I don't even know all these organizations he went on and on about...



More to follow

More snark.

 

[Underd0g]

Post 2 regarding
Controversial or finally the truth

From there, since he saw he had an audience with a sympathetic ear, myself, he listed 'suggestions' as to how the church could be 'improved.'

here is #3 of that list:



The most gentle of protocols as you did here? You have never expressed anything to me regarding your complaint you have expressed here so kind of doubt you were 'gentle' to others as well.

and here is #4 of the same list:



For the record, mr underdog forgot to talk to me privately if he had a 'grievance' against me as scripture directs but instead went public in this forum and it seems he may have done the same in, his words, many churches he has attended. Now I don't know about others here, but I have actually been in ministry for years, worship leader, counsellor, teacher, sunday school and so on. I say that because if anyone else here has had that experience, I am sure I don't have to tell you about certain people who cause problems, want to make a big show about it and label the pastor and others as guilty. Such, seems to be mr underdog.

My response to that in post # 18 same thread in question

He also gave another poster in that thread a hard time, misunderstood him and told him he belonged to a 'false' group.

Continued in another post

This is too convoluted to follow.
Your profile is private.

It's not mr underdog, and Underd0g should be capitalized.
More disrespect.

 

[pinebeach]

After his suggestions and the way he jumped on the other poster (you can see that in the thread) I responded this way: post 18

Maybe we need to back this up abit? I think you gave the wrong impression here. I understood you had a positive experience as did JaumeJ. This is not my favorite expression, but let's not throw that proverbial baby out with the backwater.

Underdog, tell me if I am wrong, but I get the impression you may not have anything good to say about Charasmatic circles? Again, please feel free to correct me because I truly do want to understand. So, I am just going to ask a straightforward question and I would like a straightforward answer please.

Now do I sound like someone who does not care or someone who just jumps around and makes problems? Anyway, you can read the rest of what I said in post 18.

 

[pinebeach]

Here is his response, post 19 and yes it's long.

Good and valid questions.
Of course, I believe in the gifts of The Holy Spirit.
I believe the miracles stated in the Bible.
I believe that God can suspend the laws of physics, and there is the possibility that He has done it in modern times.

What I have never experienced is a Charismatic who has maintained a balanced and rational view of a spiritual life.
To a man, when challenged, they have muddied the waters on their assertions and have refused to answer questions.
If someone tells me they heard God tell them do thus and such, I have no way to disprove that.
It's frustrating when this same person participates in gossip that poisons relationships and is unwilling to hear correction.

I relent, no one is perfect, but how do you test the Spirits when the automatic response is that I am defying The Spirit of God?

I guess it's charitable to believe there are sincere Christians among the multitude that attend Joel Osteen's church, but what does that say about their discernment?

Who are the respected leaders of the Charismatic movement?
They are falling like dominoes. Who is left to carry on the principles of Charismatic beliefs?
What are those beliefs?
I don't know one name. I don't know one healthy belief other than the beliefs I hold to already.

No, I can't disprove that they didn't see someone raised from the dead, that a leg was elongated, or that an interpretation of tongues isn't spot on.
Proving a negative is problematic.
It would have been helpful if the supposed balanced ones denounced the frauds all along.
What are the odds that in 50 years and all of my encounters, I never met one?
The time spent on seeing angels, demons, and talking audibly to Jesus Himself drains their credibility.

Jaumel denounced the group himself.
This is compatible with my observations. Everyone outs their own churches and the hypocrisy that exists in them.
They just don't see it in themselves.

If God is unable to build a perfect church beyond reproach, He shouldn't have promised to.
That bride is meeting Jesus without spot or wrinkle; I guarantee it because God did.

Look, I've been avoiding sharing this because I haven't wanted to be viewed as an object of sympathy.
Everyone's lives have unique challenges, and these challenges shape how they think.
People with traumas are influenced in certain ways.

My situation is that my wife of 45 years is in the 6th stage of early onset Frontotemporal Dementia.
As a result, I have lived a life of intense isolation. This disease drives people away.
I have never been asked what my wife is experiencing or what I go through.
My opinions of Christianity aren't limited to Charismatics. I believe the entire church body is shot.
The "normal" Christians in our lives told us early on that they are "bad at texting". A couple told me how strapped for money they were when I had never solicited financial support. They wanted to head things off.

As a result, I have determined to go through this on my own. I have never used in-home nursing or respite care.
I have chosen not to administer medication because that would weaken her.
As a result, my wife talks nonstop for hours at a time, unintelligibly. This puts people off to the extent that when she could walk, neighbors would duck into their apartments, and now that she can't go for walks, it freaks people out, so they don't visit.

This progression is something we have been going through for ten years without a single Christian thinking anything of it.
Once I let it slip to one of my sons that I don't have significant conversations with people in person for weeks and months at a time.
I listened to his verbal incredulity expressed as this soaked in, but it didn't alter his behavior.

No, I'm not judgmental of every relationship in my life. Only leaders and people who state their values from their own mouths.
If a Charismatic has a book or a teacher that I can examine, it's never been offered to me before.
Trump promoted Kenneth Copeland.
Mainstream pastors get excited about people coming back from the dead without even considering that these authors might be scamming. They want so badly to believe. It tickles their followers' ears.
Fox News has promoted all kinds of false teaching.
Speaking of which, Fox News promotes all kinds of profane and depraved humor and has corrupted the Christian women anchors who normally would have had a decent Christian witness.

The church is more ill than most can even imagine.

Back to my situation. I have spent the majority of my Christian experience writing about my observations and reexamining them over and over. Especially in the past ten years, I have become more convinced that before the miracles, repentance, and revival are going to occur.
This isn't a prophecy, just a speculation. I want repentance over miracles anyway.

I know I'm not crazy because my wife understood what I was saying before my complete thoughts left my mouth.
She is the only person I would bank my life on her salvation.
She never obfuscated in our conflicts. My first indication of her dementia was that we started going to bed with unresolved issues.
It was because she couldn't follow the conversations or arguments. Before that, without exception, we came to agreement before going to sleep.
All our friends and relatives knew this.
This is what I'm searching for to be the norm in the church. This might be my last-ditch effort.

I can be fun, and I can be empathetic. I have no doubt of this. I dread confrontation and would rather go through my suffering without anyone thinking about me.

Suffering brings one closer to God. My God shall supply all our needs. We need suffering, it's no strange thing.

But to take your suffering and interpret it through the lens of miracles isn't healthy.
This is the state of the Charismatic movement.

Look at which threads get attention. Does that say anything to you about the mindset and character of Christians?

I have decades of observations I would refer to as insights. I have no reason to avoid them being vetted.
It's just that I get banned from churches before they will examine them.

But I would be more than willing to investigate the best of the best of Charismatic teachers and authors.

And the next time I hear, "No such thing as a perfect church", my reply will be, "Only because they serve an imperfect God."

 

[pinebeach]

My response to that in post 21 was short but certainly not rude or uncaring

That's alot to take in (as I'm sure you know) and I never expected so much info. I don't take any of what you stated lightly and I'm not going to avoid talking about it. You have said an awful lot and I have questions about some of it. I would never give all that info out in this forum or basically anywhere because I am a little too well versed in some of the things you mention and I have already discussed many concerns with people I trusted but I don't think I would even do that today. Will respond later and no, I don't say that and not mean it.

More to follow

 

[pinebeach]

This, post # 28, was his response to me.

I tend to overwhelm.
Personally, I think it's because so many issues never get addressed.
My wife used to keep me from humiliating myself.
I just discovered that it requires a subscription to PM people here.
I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew.
I appreciate the ear, never experienced that before.
Might be why I overshared.

I responded in post # 29

Well I won't deny a little restraint could help. You cannot jump on everything and pour out frustrations and disappointments and want answers for that. See, you are basically talking about personal (I'll use the word values here but it's not the best word) values and wanting others to fulfill them for you. You want answers that jibe with your expectations. Doesn' come. You want people to change when you point out scripture to them that they are not following. Doesn't come. Actually, you want change that only God can effect. But like I said, going through your concerns a little slower should help and maybe give you time to think about your own responses without that emotional overload.

So no worries. Going to continue on with my response.

 

[studier]

It's my interpretation that it is God's goal as well.
Not the 144,000 or some such interpretation. I don't go there.

I see the same thing. I think many do. The only thing I've ever been able to reconcile by looking around is that He knows who are His no matter where they are and there may not be as many as we think there are - while we're likely all certain those other than us are suspect.

 

[pinebeach]

I responded in detail, posts 30-33 to all he posted and even though I did so with care and obviously not being rude or condescending and I fully expected a decent response as he indicated he wanted discussion, all I got for my care was this:

There's no way I would overwhelm you with a response like that.
You nailed it and ironically proved my point.
I needed someone to listen.
You were right on with so many insights.
A couple of issues you may have missed context because you don't know me perfectly, but they didn't matter.
I feel this huge sense of relief.
Because I interacted with you, I received significant clarity.
I no longer regret it.
Don't get a big head.

Not another word. At first I just said 'ok then'. I was kind of put off that he would just act like that and basically brush everything off. It seems I might have just been strung along by someone who is a professional trouble maker.

The next day after I thought abit more about the exchange, all honest answers I gave and thought he was actually looking for answers and someone to talk to, I said this: post #337

I too have received some significant clarity. Some people think you have as much time to waste as, apparently, they do. I see a pattern of self inflicted problems and no resolution other than to blame everyone else. May have got too close to home. shrugs

Live and learn I guess.

In other news, if anyone is interested, Bethel church is issuing apologies for their lack of honesty, integrity and responsibility. The actual main focus on the video was so called personal prophecy and the harm it does when operating through a false prophet. Bethel has been off the rails for many years.

 

[pinebeach]

So draw your own conclusions. I totally understand how churches have banned him, his own son won't talk to him and all friends he says he had have divested themselves of his company.

I would have been agreeable to disussing further with him if he had complaints about my response(s) but he just posted what I consider a joke and dropped off everything and now he appears here and tries to hold some kind of Matthew 18 judgement seat with the forum as an audience because people have responded with awww poor baby only taking his word for how wonderful he is while everyone else, now including me, is a reprobate.

 

[pinebeach]

Again I don't blame others for not want to get involved; I am not asking anyone to get involved, unlike the op who would like to have me blacklisted apparently for being kind and truthful with him but not agreeing with him on everything. Go read what I said to him. I gave him good advice including about his wife.

I find this thread to originate from someone who really does need someone to care and yet be truthful with him. But in person.

But I suspect that has been tried and not ended well. For me though, it ends right here.

 

[pinebeach]

This is too convoluted to follow.
Your profile is private.

It's not mr underdog, and Underd0g should be capitalized.
More disrespect.

One more thing actually. You betcha my profile is private. And other people also have private profiles rather than deal with people like you in private wherein you can say things and then deny you said those things. I know other people here who have made their profiles private. Good for me and good for them.

 

[Underd0g]

My curiosity and conscience are satisfied.
I don't think I can add anything worthy that I haven't said already.
I will be signing off until Sunday night, when I will read the comments.
The odds are that I will be saying thank you for your participation and goodbye.
If there are compelling posts, of course, I will address them.
I'm sure I won't address them all.
Understanding compromise is important to me.
I totally understand any suspicion of my character.

 

[rewriter]

If your self-righteousness is a reference to me, then it would be impossible for anyone to confront anybody else for any of their sins.
I'm following my conscience.
What sins do you condone in the church, and what sins do you condone in yourself?
Why would perfection not be a goal?
Where do you draw the line?
I admit it's a tough question. Gray areas and existentialism are something everyone deals with on their own. I have only a small amount of influence or responsibility. I'm trying to do right. As you disagree, I listen. If I don't change my mind, we'll go on our way.

I'm not taking anything personal; I hope neither are you. (Referring to the self-righteousness comment.)

I have a list somewhere of a bunch of scriptures that encourage maturity and perfection.
So what if I don't accomplish absolute perfection?
I've conquered addictions and inclinations, and I could help others do the same.
If they don't want to shed themselves of those sins, so be it. If they are self-satisfied, then that is how they will live their lives.
My responsibility isn't with anyone but those within my sphere of influence. It might be with some here and others not.
This conversation will pass.

I did not accuse you of self-righteousness, is your response an indication that you perceive that as a potential problem?

As for sins I tolerate, either in others or in myself, I tolerate any that are not too blatant as sins are merely necessary outcomes of Sin, and I must tolerate that in myself and others because I recognize that no physical person is capable of avoiding it. This is the same attitude I try to take towards anyone with a physical disease, I do not blame them for coughing or having a fever or sneezing. Now if they consciously make no effort to prevent their sputum from a cough or sneeze from landing on another or consciously make no effort to keep from infecting others, I blame them. I attempt to avoid conscious sins, and I call on others to do likewise, but citing specific sins becomes judgmental, if a passing grade is 100%, 99% is just as big a failure as 1%. In many professions where one has to receive a passing grade on a required test, they do not tell anyone what their grade was beyond passing or failing, with Sin, a single sin gives one a failing grade, no matter what it was, how do you then judge which one specific sin is to be tolerated or not?

 

[Eli1]

My curiosity and conscience are satisfied.
I don't think I can add anything worthy that I haven't said already.
I will be signing off until Sunday night, when I will read the comments.
The odds are that I will be saying thank you for your participation and goodbye.
If there are compelling posts, of course, I will address them.
I'm sure I won't address them all.
Understanding compromise is important to me.
I totally understand any suspicion of my character.

My friend, i read all those links and the comments thereafter and i honestly don't see how Pinebeach has done anything wrong.
I also wanted to add that taking care of others is a very demandin things to do mentally and physically. Even if you are an introvert and with God on your side, the caring of a loved one will take its toll when it goes on for years without a break.
It's a difficult thing and i don't have much words but i think you're both great and i pray that God gives you a Miracles.
Big hug and take things one day at a time, in-prayer and talking to God.

 

[Inquisitor]

The reason for this thread is that I am on a quest.
I have been looking for Christians who have had similar experiences to mine and have come to the same conclusions. Hopefully, to find people who walk in the same spirit as me, and to be able to support and encourage each other.

I will give you these two scriptures and let you research, pray, and meditate for more on your own. I know the whole thing about "there is no such thing as a perfect church" and "the church is a hospital for sinners", and "if you find the perfect church, don't join it because then it won't be perfect". Please avoid all the cliches and stereotypes.
Matthew 5:48 and Ephesians 5:27 are just a few reasons I pursue perfection. I won't copy and paste scriptures for you. Those tactics are fruitless. I doubt many people go through those lists.
I know what people think about perfection, but that shouldn't preclude them from acting beyond reproach as God's Spirit prompts them.

It occurred to me that maybe, since the church is basically corrupt and too ill to walk with God, in my view, there is a faction of people who are still committed to waiting out this spirit of evil that has taken over the organized body of religion, hoping for revival. They obey the scriptures of meeting with "believers" until the true believers can figure out how to identify each other and become serious about the calling that Christ has placed on their lives.

I recently interacted with a "bishop" of the new Global Methodist Church. He left what he calls the evil of the United Methodist Church to begin this brand new denomination. The people starting this new "moral" church are the same people who allowed the old denomination to become corrupt financially and sexually.
He insisted that I should be a part of an organized church, preferably the GMC (Because it is of the John Wesley tradition. He loves the word "tribe".), and obey the chain of command and bureaucracy.

He never explained how denominations relate to 1 Corinthians 1:12.

In other words, they used to belong to the true church when the UMC used to be healthy, and let it become evil, and now they belong to the new, healthy church. I guess if that church is recognized as bad, they will start a new healthy church, and on and on.

It reminds me of when I was accused of being a church butterfly by people who, years later, left their churches.

So, does anybody here belong to a healthy church? I have never met anyone who doesn't think poorly of and make excuses for their own churches.
The church where I got saved, the pastor patted me on the back, and that was the extent of my discipleship.

The counsel I have received here on this site is that I am just looking for someone to blame for my personal problems, so I've already heard that. We will call that "Stereotype #1" to save time. Just post Stereotype #1 and don't make me read anything more. I've heard it all.

Here were my church choices over the past 50-some years:

1) A married junior pastor who seduced the married women he was supposed to be counseling.
2) A senior pastor who covered up a junior pastor seducing women he was supposed to be counseling and let him start a new church instead of calling the police.
3) That same junior pastor, starting a new congregation with my friends.
4) Me and my wife attending this church, recognizing something was amiss because the pastor was running the church on his personality and not the Spirit of God, and leaving this church.
5) My friends deriding us for leaving because we had no "evidence" of wrongdoing.
6) My "friends" discovering the truth about the pastor and ignoring what they said to and about us.
7) Us finding a church with another pastor being adulterous.
8) Us finding and leaving another church running on the personality of the pastor, which fell apart years later.
9) Us finding a church with a private school for our children. The school admittedly hired teachers out of a sense of ministry. One teacher had severe mental issues, but the school overall was incompetent and allowed cheating and misbehavior. We left that church. The school fell apart, and the principal of the school acknowledged we were right, only years later, and the pastor had fired her in the meantime for trying to clean it up.
10) Churches that wouldn't address grievances or follow Matthew 18. They didn't allow or deal with dissent.
11) Churches that allowed cliques, gossip, backbiting, destroying of relationships, etc...
12) Churches that allowed shacking up.
13) Embezzlement.
14) Extreme materialism with the pastor.
15) Definite racism.
16) A promise that their church wasn't a Word of Faith church, and then the next Sunday, being told by the pastor about a man who didn't want to tithe because of financial hardship, tithed anyway, and that next year, bought a recreational vehicle. The pastor then told the congregation that if they started tithing, he would return their money if things didn't go well for them.
17) Churches where members don't even try to understand the Bible.
18) Parents with children who had severe mental and physical retardation, being encouraged to put as much money as they could into large Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets to prove their faith and get their children healed.
19) "Christians" in my family telling us about gold dust falling from the ceiling and miracles occurring in groups like "Women Aglow". Prophets, prophetesses, prophecies, words of knowledge, tongues, and interpretations, phony gold tooth miracles, other false miracles, false teachings, declarations of demonic possession and deliverances, declarations of healings without evidence,
20) Witnessing ministries like Jehovah's Witnesses, Joel Osteen, Mormonism, The PTL Club, Charisma Magazine, The Christian Broadcast Network, Paul Crouch and the Trinity Broadcasting Network, more Charismatic preachers than you can shake a stick at, and on and on... The point being, they thrive while barely being challenged.
21) Most recently, a church that rejected my appeal for a very MINOR bit of help with my wife, who has dementia. No "Christian" in our ten years of dealing with dementia has ever asked what my wife is experiencing or made a serious attempt at finding out if they can help. They do, however, ask how she is. They are satisfied when I say, "She's in good spirits." I never say anything different, and no one has noticed.
The closest they come to telling me they would like to help is that they aren't good at texting. (In a text.)

At this site, Christian Chat, I only see vain arguments, quarrels, and members talking past each other in petty pursuits. I don't see resolution or communication, much less a body working together. If there is anyone here looking for solutions, I haven't found them. Just page after page of blather.
I guess this is my last-ditch effort, hoping that word can get around and maybe I can find one or two people who can relate. You would have to repent of being a member here.
Maybe I'll get banned. If I do, I'll have my answer.


The first person who says, "I'm sorry for the things you've gone through", will be called out for not reading this post seriously. I'm not looking for sympathy; I'm looking for Christians who agree. I won't fight. If you tell me you belong to a healthy church, I will require you to give me the email of your pastor, or I will call you out for being a liar and a hypocrite. We can figure out a way to privately exchange emails.

"I'm sorry for what you've gone through" can be "Sterotype #2."

"I'm praying for you" is "Stereotype #3".
I don't need to know you are praying for me. Pray in private. God knows when you ask something of Him and what you pray for daily. If you use this stereotype, just know that I am picturing you with your thumbs under your armpits, flapping your elbows as everyone online reads that you "care".

I'm looking for people who have the creativity that comes from God.
Spoiler alert: You will most probably have years of journaling things that never get discussed in church or even in public. You will have plenty of anecdotes of your own. You will have solutions in mind as you read this.

I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU GO ALONG TO GET ALONG IN THE "CHURCH" AND HAVEN'T KNOWN WHAT TO DO!!

You realize that Paul was running into some of the problems that you noticed.

That is why he wrote some of his letters to clear up so many issues, swirling through the churches.

Because people don't change the way they behave then, it holds true, that the church will operate
in a similar manner.

As far as I can tell from visiting far too many churches it is usually a small subset of Christians, in these
churches that are genuine Christians.

Christian Forums are fun.

You may have a far to lofty expectation of Christian churches in general.

The churches are not my concern they are the Lord's concern.

Your commentary is valid and always will be but remember we are saved by grace in the first
instance. We do not boast but we only boast in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Snackersmom]

You are so kind!

Living beyond reproach isn't "Stepford Wives", it's fun and Godly. That is a common misconception.
I'm fun, interesting, and creative. People want to have wholesome fun.

They are afraid of giving up their "guilty pleasures". They can't imagine not being able to watch New Jersey Housewives.
People interested in fun and community would stray away from those attractions.
Conflicts are necessary, and iron sharpens iron, but the result is Godliness. And then those conflicts quit happening.

If you let the sins of those you love roll off your back, that's being complicit.
So they spread gossip and ruin relationships. What if it is about you? Is that a line you draw, or do you allow lies to fester?
Who in your life do you not care if it hurts?

I wish someone stood up to my brother when he was abusive to my wife, besides just me.
I'm estranged from my siblings. That's the result of looking the other way.

Hi Underd0g, I did not mean to imply that becoming sanctified makes us boring lol. I must not have phrased that very well. I do seek to live above reproach and I do not find it boring. I was just saying that a healthy church has a constant supply of new converts coming in, and with new converts comes spiritual immaturity. I'm in youth ministry, several kids in our group were in trouble with the law before they met Jesus. Yes, they had a lot to learn when they started coming. But watching them grow and be conformed to the image of Christ has been amazing.... I never get tired of seeing Him work. The majority of our parishioners are mature Christians who behave as such, but the ones I am called to are still rough around the edges. I do not see that as a problem as long as they are still growing, rather I embrace it. I think I would get bored in an assembly of believers who all felt they had "arrived", so to speak.

I'm sorry for what you went through with your brother, that sounds very difficult. Yes, there's definitely times you should stand up, call out, defend, expose, etc. When I said I let things roll off my back I was specifically referring to people I disagree with on the internet. Online there's only so much they can affect you unless you let them. In person is a whole other story. I'm glad you stood up for your wife, she is blessed to have you!

Best!