More pieces fall into place
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As a brief overview of the New Apostolic Reformation, allow me to share the following:
1. The NAR doesn't have a central headquarters like most traditional denominations, with a brick and mortar building located somewhere. It's a network of like-minded people and churches.
2. It does, however, have recognized leadership. C. Peter Wagner is the acknowledged founder of the NAR as we know it today. Wagner's the one who coined the name "New Apostolic Reformation." But its roots go back to the 1950s to the Latter Rain movement and the Manifest Sons of God. Names in these movements include William Branham and even Jim Jones.
3. There's an organization comprised of some of the NAR's top leaders: the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. So there is a recognized group of leaders.
4. The goal is to reform the church from the inside out. Gone is the traditional (and Biblical) model of elder and deacon leadership; in is the authoritative leadership of the apostle.
5. NAR churches aren't necessarily governed on site by an apostle. More frequently an apostle is the head of a network of many churches and local pastors; some of these networks number in the thousands.
6. C. Peter Wagner claims that the NAR movement is a spontaneous move of God in these latter days. However, all one has to do is read some of Wagner's books and you can see a game plan being developed—not from God but out of his own mind. In fact, Wagner is really the intellectual father of the NAR and most of their beliefs and practices can be traced to him. See for example his contribution to The New Apostolic Churches, 1998: https://www.urbanleaders.org/620Leadership/92Readings/articles/Wagner-New Apostolic Churches.pdf (Direct download).
7. NAR groups aren't just in the US but are worldwide. They are by far the fastest-growing movement, surpassing even Pentecostalism.
8. The NAR is not part of Pentecostalism; however, it's an outgrowth of Pentecostalism and the Assemblies of God. The assemblies of God didn't want anything to do with them. Recently evidence has surfaced that Bethel Church (formerly Bethel Assembly of God), under the leadership of Bill Johnson, is infiltrating certain AoG churches and taking them over. This, really, is the ultimate goal for all churches.
9. There's an article NPR did with C. Peter Wagner in 2011 here: https://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics. Wagner shares his views on such things as the apostle's authority, dominionism and the Seven Mountains Mandate, among other things. It's clear from his responses the goal is a silent coup, a takeover from within. I found his response to the subject of evangelism pretty interesting: "Well, we respect all religions, but we also respect the freedom of exercising our religion. And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God." Sounds good but he forgot about the first part before you walk with Jesus: repentance and the new birth. Judas was a "follower of Jesus." And by "kingdom of God" he doesn't mean a spiritual kingdom but the kingdom of dominionism which he, and others, strive to usher in.
10. Below is an excellent video on the roots of the NAR and the NAR today. All this only scratches the surface, but it's enough to show that it's a thing. It's players and origins can be identified. It's in plain site and most people have no clue what's going on.
1. The NAR doesn't have a central headquarters like most traditional denominations, with a brick and mortar building located somewhere. It's a network of like-minded people and churches.
2. It does, however, have recognized leadership. C. Peter Wagner is the acknowledged founder of the NAR as we know it today. Wagner's the one who coined the name "New Apostolic Reformation." But its roots go back to the 1950s to the Latter Rain movement and the Manifest Sons of God. Names in these movements include William Branham and even Jim Jones.
3. There's an organization comprised of some of the NAR's top leaders: the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. So there is a recognized group of leaders.
4. The goal is to reform the church from the inside out. Gone is the traditional (and Biblical) model of elder and deacon leadership; in is the authoritative leadership of the apostle.
5. NAR churches aren't necessarily governed on site by an apostle. More frequently an apostle is the head of a network of many churches and local pastors; some of these networks number in the thousands.
6. C. Peter Wagner claims that the NAR movement is a spontaneous move of God in these latter days. However, all one has to do is read some of Wagner's books and you can see a game plan being developed—not from God but out of his own mind. In fact, Wagner is really the intellectual father of the NAR and most of their beliefs and practices can be traced to him. See for example his contribution to The New Apostolic Churches, 1998: https://www.urbanleaders.org/620Leadership/92Readings/articles/Wagner-New Apostolic Churches.pdf (Direct download).
7. NAR groups aren't just in the US but are worldwide. They are by far the fastest-growing movement, surpassing even Pentecostalism.
8. The NAR is not part of Pentecostalism; however, it's an outgrowth of Pentecostalism and the Assemblies of God. The assemblies of God didn't want anything to do with them. Recently evidence has surfaced that Bethel Church (formerly Bethel Assembly of God), under the leadership of Bill Johnson, is infiltrating certain AoG churches and taking them over. This, really, is the ultimate goal for all churches.
9. There's an article NPR did with C. Peter Wagner in 2011 here: https://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics. Wagner shares his views on such things as the apostle's authority, dominionism and the Seven Mountains Mandate, among other things. It's clear from his responses the goal is a silent coup, a takeover from within. I found his response to the subject of evangelism pretty interesting: "Well, we respect all religions, but we also respect the freedom of exercising our religion. And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God." Sounds good but he forgot about the first part before you walk with Jesus: repentance and the new birth. Judas was a "follower of Jesus." And by "kingdom of God" he doesn't mean a spiritual kingdom but the kingdom of dominionism which he, and others, strive to usher in.
10. Below is an excellent video on the roots of the NAR and the NAR today. All this only scratches the surface, but it's enough to show that it's a thing. It's players and origins can be identified. It's in plain site and most people have no clue what's going on.
No worries.
that’s the ultimate goal of life no worries
“Be careful for nothing;
but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”
Philippians 4:6-8 KJV
Peace and no worries , offense and grudges left behind is central to our faith
God bless and no worries for sure
I'm not going to be pulled into an argument about the gift of prophecy, but just give an explanation as I've experienced this. Jaume also gave what I know is true.
One who speaks through the Spirit of God, speaks pure if not adding or subtracting from what is inspired.
Sometimes the words may seem foolish to the speaker, but is revelation to the hearer. Then the temptation may come from ones flesh nature to add. Also, the Word given may be for some time off in the future, so then those hearing may be tempted to disbelieve. Thats when we "put the Words on the shelf" so to speak. And wait.
We always put our faith in the Lord, not the man. Man is fallible, can be immature in the gifts and in faith. That is why Paul said to let those mature then discern. And instruct in love, not law.
The mature can tell what is of God and what is not.
One who speaks through the Spirit of God, speaks pure if not adding or subtracting from what is inspired.
Sometimes the words may seem foolish to the speaker, but is revelation to the hearer. Then the temptation may come from ones flesh nature to add. Also, the Word given may be for some time off in the future, so then those hearing may be tempted to disbelieve. Thats when we "put the Words on the shelf" so to speak. And wait.
We always put our faith in the Lord, not the man. Man is fallible, can be immature in the gifts and in faith. That is why Paul said to let those mature then discern. And instruct in love, not law.
The mature can tell what is of God and what is not.
There are very few churches that function as those of the first fellowships.
Here's an aspect to this I may have overlooked. The Prophetic Standards Statement was released on April 29, in the wake of many failed prophecies claiming Trump would be elected to a second term. Did someone say damage control?
https://religionunplugged.com/news/...c-standards-to-address-false-trump-prophecies
https://religionunplugged.com/news/...c-standards-to-address-false-trump-prophecies
Without getting into an argument about the gift of prophecy, can you tell me from where exactly in scripture this comes?
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Experience is the best teacher for experience is Holy Spirits anointing on man.
OK, coming back to this thread, and I am in agreement with you on post #9. This is why any charismatic with any sense rejects NAR wholesale, and distances themselves from it.
But now, let me give you a sense of why prophecy is still needed and not just teachers. I belong to another forum where the moderator received several dreams about it coming under spiritual attack from several different factions. I interpreted for him, and those dreams ended up coming true, and they helped us protect people from being effected by it. There have been numerous attacks that I've received dreams about that also came true. One I referred to in yesterday's post in the "end-times" thread.
The point is this: The word of God is our first and foremost defense, yes. But things like prophecy and word of knowledge about what the enemy is planning are the Spirit's way of forewarning us in very specific ways about what we are about to have to deal with in the 21st century, so when the events actually get here we already know what was coming and have already prepared for it in advance.
Does this mean two consecutive terms? 2024
My personal opinion is Trump is the elected President but it was stolen from him.
If I may be more specific, you said. . .
What examples in the New Testament do we have of this?
Also you said. . .
Are there examples of any New Testament prophets struggling with this?
I don't recall anything about being "immature in the gifts." Does it talk about this in the New Testament?
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but where does Paul say this?
What examples in the New Testament do we have of this?
Also you said. . .
Are there examples of any New Testament prophets struggling with this?
I don't recall anything about being "immature in the gifts." Does it talk about this in the New Testament?
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but where does Paul say this?
Excellent post, Aaron.
If you could, tell me what you think of Post #29. I believe the gift of prophecy is still of immense value in the spiritual war, and I personally think the things the enemy has done through people like the Kingdom Now crowd have helped serve to dissuade people from it, and in doing so disarming the church.
Btw, I had pastor friend who got deeply into Guillermo Maldonado, and I was appalled. What those people have to do to Biblical prophecy to make their theology work is just frightening.
I warned people in that church about following that business, and it was not long afterwards that Myles Monroe, the founding father of Kingdom Now, died in a plane crash in 2014. My pastor friend has since backed off it somewhat, thank the Lord.
Yeah, that's what I mean. A lot of NAR prophets did prophecy a second term in 2020; some of them even "apologized" for their failure. Others doubled down on how they couldn't possibly have been wrong.
God isn't the author of confusion. True prophets don't make mistakes like this. None of them predicted COVID-19, though some have tried to backtrack after the fact and say they did.
No response to Post #29, RA? That was directed to you first and foremost.
Do you think such things can still serve an important purpose today, or no?
I said experience is the best teacher. We go from grace to grace and grace means the divine influence upon the heart with its reflection in the life, including gratitude. Have you yourself known all the Word there is to know, or do you have to study? Seeds need watered, sunlight, prepared soil to grow. Our Spirit man grows also.
The baptism of Holy Spirit is an experience with the Lord, same as the new birth with the instant change in our life. And it's for all of His body.
You want me to explain the moving of the Wind among our midst. Ask the Wind.
but this I feel to be important:
"That is why Paul said to let those mature then discern. And instruct in love, not law."
1Co 14:29 Let(G1161) the prophetsG4396 speakG2980 twoG1417 orG2228 three,G5140 andG2532 let theG3588 otherG243 judge.G1252
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
Total KJV occurrences: 19
The baptism of Holy Spirit is an experience with the Lord, same as the new birth with the instant change in our life. And it's for all of His body.
You want me to explain the moving of the Wind among our midst. Ask the Wind.
but this I feel to be important:"That is why Paul said to let those mature then discern. And instruct in love, not law."
1Co 14:29 Let(G1161) the prophetsG4396 speakG2980 twoG1417 orG2228 three,G5140 andG2532 let theG3588 otherG243 judge.G1252
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
Total KJV occurrences: 19
Here is the difference, not many get this and I have stated that the Old Testament Prophet or the "Thus Saith the Lord" Prophet is different from the New Testament Epistle writers like Paul who were not saying in their mere letters, Thus saith the Lord so much as they were guiding their flock as a Pastors with the Holy Spirit. SO.......What is the difference?
Paul and most New Testament writers stayed around humans, most Prophets of old, in order to hear from God, separated themselves from humanity, they went into the desert, or wilderness, etc., etc., and thus they tuned out everything except God. When we are around other men, Satan can use them to sway our thinking via peer pressure, it's subtle, but it's there. We see darkly now but will see as we are seen once we get to heaven. So, the Prophets had ZERO DISTRACTIONS, today's Holy Spirit-led guy can be of the Church/of God and misled because we cannot do as the prophets did and spend months in the desert because our job 1 is to save souls.
So, yes, indeed modern men of God can at times hear the voice of Satan, as Peter did when Jesus said
"Get Behind Me Satan", Peter wanted to FIGHT after Jesus had told him his kingdom was ot of this world, so Peter heard Satan's small still voice. If he had been in the desert for months with Jesus and had not been around other men who were probably telling him the Messiah is supposed to SAVE Israel from the coming Fourth Beast. That was Judas' problem, he wanted Jesus to be a political savior, thus Satan not only deceived him but entered into him.
When Paul says that the Anti-Christ will enter into the Temple and call himself God, I don't think that jibes with what Jesus said nor what Daniel 12:11-13 says. Jesus in Matt. 24:15-17 says when that which ought not stands in the temple (AoD) you need to flee Judea and don't look back. Jesus here is intimating that he's speaking about an IMAGE, the same one we see that the Fase Prophet places into the temple in Rev. 13. The 1290 in Dan. 12 happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ even conquers Israel at he 1260, so the 1290 event can't be the Anti-Christ. It is instead the Jewish HighPriest/False Propet that throws in with the Anti-Christ who places the Image of the Beast into the Temple and stops Jesus Worship (takes away the Sacrifice). I defy anyone to tell me why God Almighty would reference a meat sacrifice in the end times, which He deems an Abomination !!
So, I agree with the premise, Old Testament Prophets had to get things 100 percent correct because all other men did not have any other GUIDANCE (Holy Spirit). Now EACH MAN has access to the Holy Spirit, so everything doesn't have to be exact because we can all TRY THE SPIRITS to see if they are of God. In other words, instead of having men spend months in the desert to get everything 100 percent correct, God prefers to have us around other human beings, leading them unto Crist Jesus, and when we do make minor mistakes because we see DARKLY, other people can ask the Holy Spirits guidance to correct that situation. I have learned never to profess a thought as FACTS until the Holy Spirit affirms it unto me. That stops mistakes in full. Never profess a GUESS is if God.
I said experience is the best teacher. We go from grace to grace and grace means the divine influence upon the heart with its reflection in the life, including gratitude. Have you yourself known all the Word there is to know, or do you have to study? Seeds need watered, sunlight, prepared soil to grow. Our Spirit man grows also.
The baptism of Holy Spirit is an experience with the Lord, same as the new birth with the instant change in our life. And it's for all of His body.
You want me to explain the moving of the Wind among our midst. Ask the Wind.
"That is why Paul said to let those mature then discern. And instruct in love, not law."
1Co 14:29 Let(G1161) the prophetsG4396 speakG2980 twoG1417 orG2228 three,G5140 andG2532 let theG3588 otherG243 judge.G1252
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
Total KJV occurrences: 19
Well, I agree you base things more on experience than God's word. But I disagree experience is the best teacher. One's experience may lead a person far astray from God's will.
Acts 11:28 says: "And rising up, one of them named Agabus, foretold by the Spirit of a great famine about to happen in all the world, which also came to pass in the time of Claudius Caesar."
Agabus didn't say, "I forsee great darkness; something bad is coming, sometime in the future; it will affect a great multitude; buy my book and I'll give you the details."
Agabus didn't say, "I forsee great darkness; something bad is coming, sometime in the future; it will affect a great multitude; buy my book and I'll give you the details."
Agreed. If this was in reference to Post #29, that sort of thing is not what I was talking about. Much of what I have shared with them has been very specific, though for the sake of privacy I will not spill another forum's business.
No, it was an addition to my post #33 really. I wanted to edit that post but time ran out.
