Misconceptions

[Laura798]

oh and to add to that--an apostle is also a disciple, but a disciple is not an apostle.

 

[wattie]

Yes. Only the twelve were chosen for the foundations of the City. I think you go too far that we are opposing Christ by teaching there were more, though. Both Paul and Luke taught that there were, and certainly we agree that neither of them opposed Christ.

I would clarify regarding my own position that not everyone referring to themself as an "apostle" today actually is one, however. Maybe this is your concern?


Depends on what part of the world, but in Central and South America certainly. Probably also in Africa.

What is the importance of who the majority is, however?

The importance is in the argument that that a lack of belief or faith is what makes the sign gifts being not seen.

The problem with this is the majority of Christians would have a belief in seeing sign miracles and wonders.

Whether the signs and wonders is still going on is an objective.. not subjective thing. In scripture it wasnt always dependent on the level of faith or lack of belief in Christians.

 

[Vindicator]

"Undoubtedly, there were other apostles unnamed in scripture as well, but regardless all true apostles met the test of having witnessed the resurrected Lord and proved their office by the unique gifts of an apostle, including raising men from the dead, healing supernaturally, surviving deadly snake bites, etc.

I see you changed your avatar, LoL.

We actually disagree on one thing however:

Today, apostles no longer exist in the church, because there are no men remaining alive who can meet the test of seeing the resurrected Lord.

One thing to remember about this (though you don't have to agree with me), is that those whom He appears to in the end-times would in effect also be witnesses of the resurrected Lord as well, since they will be seeing Him alive from the dead. There are prophecies that He will appear to councils in person as He did with the twelve, and direct the affairs of the end-time church, and that they will therefore know just as the early church did just how alive from the dead He truly is.

All we need is advice from Laura798, who loves to mislead people. That's a lot more fun than sticking to the dull and sober facts.

Uncalled for. I don't think anyone is teaching anything here to titillate the ears. They are quoting scriptures to prove their case. No offense, but what's boring is read someone resort to false accusations and slander rather than offer scriptural support for their positions.

Speaking of which, you didn't answer my last post. Is that your only answer? I'd like to give you one more chance before I show you from the letter itself how you are mistaken?

 

[Aaron56]

I believe you've seen. But can you verify? It's like Bigfoot or space aliens; everyone has belief and stories, no one has proof.

I knew a woman in her 70s who walked with a cane for 10 years. Medically she was diagnosed with a spine issue that caused her to walk hunched over.

One day, a certain man who was an apostle, preached about forgiveness and the consequences of unforgiveness. After he finished the woman with her husband approached the man. She told him she had unforgiveness in her heart against a close family member and wanted to deal with it. By this time there were several people gathered around the man and the couple.

The man led the woman through the confession of her sin of unforgiveness. He then addressed the enemy who, by right because of her sin, had harassed the woman for many years. She was tearful as she thanked the Lord for forging her sin.

When he was finished he laid a hand on her back and said, “By your confession and by the grace of the Lord the weight of this sin is now off of you. What was crooked the Lord has made straight. You will walk upright now, the Lord has restored you.” From that moment on she never walked with a hunch again. All who were present began praising the Lord.

 

[CS1]

The importance is in the argument that that a lack of belief or faith is what makes the sign gifts being not seen.

The problem with this is the majority of Christians would have a belief in seeing sign miracles and wonders.

Whether the signs and wonders is still going on is an objective.. not subjective thing. In scripture it wasnt always dependent on the level of faith or lack of belief in Christians.

That is not true. the Gospel of Mark 6:4-6 states

"4 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching. NKJV

the NLT says

4Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his relatives and his own family.” 5And because of their unbelief, he couldn’t do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their unbelief.

You make these claims that are not Biblical. Faith is a noun Belief is a Verb

Hebrew 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

WE are to always ask in faith always. IF you are not asking in faith what are you doing?

 

[Aaron56]

The original 12 were to be witnesses to the Lord’s ministry, death, resurrection and ascension. This was important because of the Jewish requirement for witnesses (to whom they immediately preached).

Yet, when Barnabas was chosen, with Saul, they did not meet this criteria and the Lord was already in heaven. Yet the Spirit chose them as He did Timothy, Silvanus, etc. Today, the Spirit also choses apostles and sends them out.

 

[Vindicator]

Ha, ha! What was that guy's name again--was it Marv Newland?

Marv apparently has a morbid sense of humor, LoL.

For Timothy and Silvanus, we have no record found in the Bible that they were eyewitnesses of Christ even after the resurrection, unlike Paul. It is much of consideration that young Timothy pastors a church

This may well be correct, and it is why I still don't take a hard line on the idea that witnessing Christ resurrected has to be a criteria for being an apostle. I think it may simply boil down to those whom God Himself specifically directs verbally (including through the Holy Spirit) to go preach the gospel to a particular region as His ambassadors.

The importance is in the argument that that a lack of belief or faith is what makes the sign gifts being not seen.

I think you may be speaking more specifically of the Faith crowd here, who have their own set of beliefs, and IMO corrupt a proper understanding of how and why the gifts operate in us. I do not hold that we simply "believe" them in, or "believe" that they are happening. I hold that they must be prayed for, and intensively and earnestly for what might be years, depending on the individual. Operating in the gifts is a spiritual responsibility, as through them one's influence grows. But no, I am not one who champions the concept of easy believism with regard to the gifts. Doesn't happen that way.

Whether the signs and wonders is still going on is an objective.. not subjective thing.

Absolutely correct, and I wish more people saw it this way. I am a Charismatic, but it never sits well with me when people talk a big talk as if great things are happening, but don't actually manifest anything of any real substance. I wish more people who believed in the gifts and profess that they are for today would be praying for them to manifest through them with objective evidence of their reality. Talk is cheap.

 

[Vindicator]

I knew a woman in her 70s who walked with a cane for 10 years. Medically she was diagnosed with a spine issue that caused her to walk hunched over.

One day, a certain man who was an apostle, preached about forgiveness and the consequences of unforgiveness. After he finished the woman with her husband approached the man. She told him she had unforgiveness in her heart against a close family member and wanted to deal with it. By this time there were several people gathered around the man and the couple.

The man led the woman through the confession of her sin of unforgiveness. He then addressed the enemy who, by right because of her sin, had harassed the woman for many years. She was tearful as she thanked the Lord for forging her sin.

When he was finished he laid a hand on her back and said, “By your confession and by the grace of the Lord the weight of this sin is now off of you. What was crooked the Lord has made straight. You will walk upright now, the Lord has restored you.” From that moment on she never walked with a hunch again. All who were present began praising the Lord.

This is why Paul taught that we are one body with many members, and that all the gifts should be in operation together. Word of wisdom and apparently the casting out of demons were necessary here for the gift of healing to operate, since she was blocking it by continuing to hold on to her resentments.

 

[Laura798]

The original 12 were to be witnesses to the Lord’s ministry, death, resurrection and ascension. This was important because of the Jewish requirement for witnesses (to whom they immediately preached).

Yet, when Barnabas was chosen, with Saul, they did not meet this criteria and the Lord was already in heaven. Yet the Spirit chose them as He did Timothy, Silvanus, etc. Today, the Spirit also choses apostles and sends them out.

Dear Brother,

Barnabas wasn't chosen to be an apostle, only to go with Paul on his missionary work--he was already an apostle. Timothy is never called an apostle--Paul calls him a 'brother' and 'co-worker' (Colossians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Romans 16:21) Same with Silvanus (1 Peter 5:12)

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out"
--Acts 14:14

To be an apostle, a disciple must meet a certain set of criteria;

1. They must be commissioned by the Lord Himself to spread the gospel before His ascension
2. They should show evidence of their apostleship by the working of miracles
3. They must have been EYE WITNESSES to his miracles, ministry, and resurrection.

There is no one currently alive that meets this criteria.

 

[Laura798]

And I want to add that I too at one time, assumed there were only the twelve apostles until someone pointed out to me there were upwards of 25. I looked it up and then also found the 70--it's funny, but as soon as they told me, I knew in my spirit it was true.

This verse makes it even more clear that there were the 12 apostles as well as other apostles --

In the following verses it gives the order in which the risen christ was witnessed by others--it says he appeared to Peter first and then to the 12 and then later says, "then to ALL the apostles."

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.”--1st Corinthians 15:`-9

 

[Laura798]

I see you changed your avatar, LoL.

We actually disagree on one thing however:


One thing to remember about this (though you don't have to agree with me), is that those whom He appears to in the end-times would in effect also be witnesses of the resurrected Lord as well, since they will be seeing Him alive from the dead. There are prophecies that He will appear to councils in person as He did with the twelve, and direct the affairs of the end-time church, and that they will therefore know just as the early church did just how alive from the dead He truly is.


Uncalled for. I don't think anyone is teaching anything here to titillate the ears. They are quoting scriptures to prove their case. No offense, but what's boring is read someone resort to false accusations and slander rather than offer scriptural support for their positions.

Speaking of which, you didn't answer my last post. Is that your only answer? I'd like to give you one more chance before I show you from the letter itself how you are mistaken?

Thanks 'big brother' for standing up for me!

Yes , I changed my avatar--However, I wish the sword was a little more imposing...

Marv--okay it was funny mainly because he had all those rolling credits all with his name on it--I imagined a guy in solitary confinement getting a free film app--he did a pretty good job -- and glad he left out all the blood and guts!

About Apostles at Christ's coming...um. no I dunna think so....

We we will all witness Christ at his coming and we won't need apostles anymore because they were eyewitnesses of Jesus's ministry and of his resurrection. Eyewitnesses presented their evidence--now the case is closed. As far as the church, my take is,

Scene 1:
1. Second Coming
2. Woopee! Here we go!--for some of us... and the rest?....
3. Boom Pow BANG--earth, stars GONE--and the unbelievers with them--for them it's lights ON one minute and LIGHTS OFF the next.
Scene 2: New Heavens and New Earth...and Eternity with HIM!

 

[Gideon300]

Really? Kindly send us all a list of the GENUINE apostles and prophets which are in the world today. And if you are unable to do so, then have the grace to say that those spiritual gifts have ceased. Self-deception helps no one.

If the gifts have ceased, and there are manifestations that are exactly like the gifts, where do those manifestations come from? I have had the spiritual gifts myself. They are not the exclusive domain of prophets and apostles. Now either the gifts are Satanic, because they are sure not natural, or they are of God. You cannot have it both ways. If you want to accuse me of being of the devil, that is your right. However, you will answer to God for your accusation.

Paul did not talk to the prophet or apostle of Corinth about spiritual gifts. He spoke to the brethren. This idea that only the original apostles could do signs and wonders is false. Stephen was not an apostle. He was a deacon. Philip was an evangelist. He performed miracles and deliverance also. Or were they out of line and operating in demonic power? I can't be intimidated. I know the truth.

 

[Vindicator]

In the following verses it gives the order in which the risen christ was witnessed by others--it says he appeared to Peter first and then to the 12 and then later says, "then to ALL the apostles."

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Very good! More proof.

I have personally never believed there were only twelve. The whole theory sounds too Cessationist for me, for lack of a better word. Sounds like something concocted merely as a way to refute the claim that there are apostles in the modern era, but in the process it tramples the word of God to do it.

Thanks 'big brother' for standing up for me!

Absolutely! I have great respect for women of God. I occasionally confront them myself, but I far prefer coming to their defense whenever I can.

Yes , I changed my avatar--However, I wish the sword was a little more imposing...

LoL. The one I gave you is still there. Can't miss that one, even if she doesn't have any bangs.

We we will all witness Christ at his coming and we won't need apostles anymore because they were eyewitnesses of Jesus's ministry and of his resurrection. Eyewitnesses presented their evidence--now the case is closed. As far as the church, my take is,

Scene 1:
1. Second Coming
2. Woopee! Here we go!--for some of us... and the rest?....
3. Boom Pow BANG--earth, stars GONE--and the unbelievers with them--for them it's lights ON one minute and LIGHTS OFF the next.
Scene 2: New Heavens and New Earth...and Eternity with HIM!

I like the picture you added. Nice touch, LoL.

Yeah, until we see some truly powerful men of God again, I don't know that it's worth arguing about much right now. And I do have a problem with many of those who presently call themselves "apostles" yet are not. I have a Hispanic pastor friend who got heavy into Guillermo Maldonado, and he calls himself an "apostle." In reality, he's just a Kingdom Now teacher, which means he basically takes Biblical prophecy and just chews it into a million pieces and then spits it out. I don't like to judge, and I don't limit God even in the present here and now, but I don't think the return of genuine apostles to the earth has arrived just yet. We've barely seen much of a return of the prophets, despite many making that claim as well.

So we'll see.

Anybody gives you any trouble, bring it to my attention. If there's any way I can defend you, I will.

And to think I just chose my site name on a whim, LoL.
Vindicator

 

[1ofthem]

Anybody gives you any trouble, bring it to my attention. If there's any way I can defend you, I will.

And to think I just chose my site name on a whim, LoL.
Vindicator

Just kidding....lol

 

[Aaron56]

Dear Brother,

Barnabas wasn't chosen to be an apostle, only to go with Paul on his missionary work--he was already an apostle. Timothy is never called an apostle--Paul calls him a 'brother' and 'co-worker' (Colossians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Romans 16:21) Same with Silvanus (1 Peter 5:12)

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out"
--Acts 14:14

To be an apostle, a disciple must meet a certain set of criteria;

1. They must be commissioned by the Lord Himself to spread the gospel before His ascension
2. They should show evidence of their apostleship by the working of miracles
3. They must have been EYE WITNESSES to his miracles, ministry, and resurrection.

There is no one currently alive that meets this criteria.

Barnabas was chosen by the Holy Spirit to be sent with Saul as an apostle. He was first a prophet or a teacher as was Saul.

"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

During a time of fasting a praying, the Spirit instructed them to set apart Barnabas and Saul.

"As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The Elders acknowledge the work of the Spirit, lay hands on them, and send them out. Then this is recorded:

"So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus."

Ultimately, they were sent out by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit chose them. And the definition of "apostle" is "sent one". Barnabas did not meet the criteria set by Peter and the disciples. (I'll come back to that)

Regarding Timothy and Silvanus.

In the introduction of the first letter to the Thessalonians this is written:

"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

These are the authors of the letter.

It continues:

"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers..."

Who is the "we"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"And you became followers of us and of the Lord..."

Who is the "us"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"..that our coming to you was not in vain."

Who is the "our"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel..."

Again, the "we" is Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.

"For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness."

This is a letter written by three men, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. So it is written from the perspective of three men addressing the saints in Thessaloniki.

The next verse is this:

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

Who are the apostles of Christ? Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy

Regarding the standard set forth by Peter and the apostles. This is said:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

This standard was necessary because of the legal traditions of the Jewish people. With the witness of 12 Jewish men a matter was considered irrefutable. And, in the Lord's timing at Pentecost, they first witnessed to the Jews. All 12 stood up with Peter as he delivered the message. By tradition, this was a sign that all 12 agreed with the one speaking. Peter then gave an account of Jesus' ministry, his death and resurrection, and ascension.

Do you see it now?

 

[Vindicator]

Just kidding....lol

That post just made my day, Lol!

 

[Laura798]

Barnabas was chosen by the Holy Spirit to be sent with Saul as an apostle. He was first a prophet or a teacher as was Saul.

"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

During a time of fasting a praying, the Spirit instructed them to set apart Barnabas and Saul.

"As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The Elders acknowledge the work of the Spirit, lay hands on them, and send them out. Then this is recorded:

"So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus."

Ultimately, they were sent out by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit chose them. And the definition of "apostle" is "sent one". Barnabas did not meet the criteria set by Peter and the disciples. (I'll come back to that)

Regarding Timothy and Silvanus.

In the introduction of the first letter to the Thessalonians this is written:

"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

These are the authors of the letter.

It continues:

"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers..."

Who is the "we"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"And you became followers of us and of the Lord..."

Who is the "us"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"..that our coming to you was not in vain."

Who is the "our"? Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It continues...

"But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel..."

Again, the "we" is Clearly it is Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.

"For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness."

This is a letter written by three men, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. So it is written from the perspective of three men addressing the saints in Thessaloniki.

The next verse is this:

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

Who are the apostles of Christ? Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy

Regarding the standard set forth by Peter and the apostles. This is said:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

This standard was necessary because of the legal traditions of the Jewish people. With the witness of 12 Jewish men a matter was considered irrefutable. And, in the Lord's timing at Pentecost, they first witnessed to the Jews. All 12 stood up with Peter as he delivered the message. By tradition, this was a sign that all 12 agreed with the one speaking. Peter then gave an account of Jesus' ministry, his death and resurrection, and ascension.

Do you see it now?

Yes, I see that both Silvanus and Timothy are called apostles--thank you for pointing that out. These then must have been witnesses of Christ's ministry and resurrection--as I said in a previous posted there are 82/84 that are numbered in the gospels; the original 12 and then the 70/72 that were sent out by Christ. So then they may have been in this number. I see what you are saying about Barnabas--since he was first called a prophet-teacher before he was called an apostle. I hadn't noticed that before.

I still believe an apostle must have been alive and been an eyewitness to Christ's ministry and resurrection. If these conditions are met then I believe they could be sent out by the Holy Spirit.

In any case you've given me more to consider and study, thank you.

 

[Laura798]

Just kidding....lol

A picture is worth a thousand words....

 

[Laura798]

Very good! More proof.

I have personally never believed there were only twelve. The whole theory sounds too Cessationist for me, for lack of a better word. Sounds like something concocted merely as a way to refute the claim that there are apostles in the modern era, but in the process it tramples the word of God to do it.


Absolutely! I have great respect for women of God. I occasionally confront them myself, but I far prefer coming to their defense whenever I can.


LoL. The one I gave you is still there. Can't miss that one, even if she doesn't have any bangs.


I like the picture you added. Nice touch, LoL.

Yeah, until we see some truly powerful men of God again, I don't know that it's worth arguing about much right now. And I do have a problem with many of those who presently call themselves "apostles" yet are not. I have a Hispanic pastor friend who got heavy into Guillermo Maldonado, and he calls himself an "apostle." In reality, he's just a Kingdom Now teacher, which means he basically takes Biblical prophecy and just chews it into a million pieces and then spits it out. I don't like to judge, and I don't limit God even in the present here and now, but I don't think the return of genuine apostles to the earth has arrived just yet. We've barely seen much of a return of the prophets, despite many making that claim as well.

So we'll see.

Anybody gives you any trouble, bring it to my attention. If there's any way I can defend you, I will.

And to think I just chose my site name on a whim, LoL.
Vindicator

Thanks Clint! Oops...I mean Vindicator--I appreciate your offering to come to my defense. And I hope we never come to fisticuffs on this site. I generally don't--that is until I feel I'm under attack. I realize it's rather futile to get angry. Sometimes we need to overlook an offence, but I also think there are times when we need to STAND UP TO THE BULLiES.

Yes your pic--it IS a little more imposing...but a bit too VaVoom! for me. I like to think of myself as POWERFUL..yet understated.

You said 'powerful men of God again,' You mean like this?:


Lord help us all! Yes that is a real pastor--sorry if you follow him...but just sayin'...

The church is just WEIRD--there's either the 'empty philosophy' or the false prophets...or the DEADNESS. As I said before churches are run more like business--I want to go to a first century kind of church--simple. The bible says the same power that rose Jesus from the grave lives in us, but you rarely hear that taught in church.

 

[montana123]

This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more..

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity is greater than faith and hope for charity will go on forever but faith and hope shall cease for they are not needed in heaven.

People can still speak in tongues, there is still prophesy that is yet to happen, and there is still knowledge to attain, but in heaven none of these things will be needed.

God said my people perish for lack of knowledge so why would it cease now.

Why would tongues cease when the Church is the Church and if they could speak in tongues back then they can speak in tongues today.