Misconceptions

[Nehemiah6]

I see my numbers are off 12+72 = 84 Apostles!

Make that an even 100 (a nice round number which goes with the Metric System) and have fun. This is called playing fast and loose with Scripture (your specialty).

 

[Vindicator]

He is specifically referring to the other eleven apostles. And here is another Scripture to confirm that: Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? (1 Cor 9:5)

You are in a different letter, LoL. The specific question is, show me where any of the other eleven are mentioned in 1st Thessalonians.

I'll be back. God bless.

 

[Laura798]

Thanks for the laugh, LoL. With that, I do believe I will check out for awhile. Always good to end on a positive note : )

P.S. If it gets bad enough, you can always change your avatar, LoL.

Ha, ha! Perfect--except I have bangs!

 

[Laura798]

Make that an even 100 (a nice round number which goes with the Metric System) and have fun. This is called playing fast and loose with Scripture (your specialty).

A piece of advice. Study the scriptures first before responding. Here is an article explaining what apostles actually are--there are myriad of others you can find for yourself:

https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/more-than-12-apostles

Excerpt:

"Undoubtedly, there were other apostles unnamed in scripture as well, but regardless all true apostles met the test of having witnessed the resurrected Lord and proved their office by the unique gifts of an apostle, including raising men from the dead, healing supernaturally, surviving deadly snake bites, etc.


Christians say there were 12 apostles, but we can find more than twelve apostles mentioned in the Bible (like Paul & Barnabas) Where did these other apostles come from?

The office of an apostle is one Jesus instituted and only He can appoint those who hold the office. The term apostle means "one sent with a message," and the Lord is the One Who sends an apostle.
Clearly, Jesus appointed more than 12 men as apostles, as you pointed out. In fact, in the Bible there are two groups of apostles. First there are those who were called "the twelve." The twelve apostles stand apart from the rest of the apostles, since they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel:
Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Specifically, the twelve apostles are the eleven men Jesus chose while He walked the earth before His death (not counting Judas, who died), and Matthias, who the Lord chose after His acsension through the means of lots:

Today, apostles no longer exist in the church, because there are no men remaining alive who can meet the test of seeing the resurrected Lord.

 

[Laura798]

Since I have said no such thing, please listen up:

1. The apostles are limited to just the twelve (Paul included). Their names are in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Indisputable evidence.

2. There were no apostles after the twelve. Church history confirms this.

3. The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul.

4. Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history.

5. Paul prophesied that (a) prophecy, (b) tongues, and (c) knowledge (supernatural) would cease. Once the Bible was complete those gifts ceased. Again check out Church history. John warned in Revelation that nothing more was to be added.

6. If God said that some gifts would cease, why are Christians unwilling to accept that decision? Because they think they are wiser than God.

The apostles are limited to just the twelve (Paul included) < Your words.

Here you have included PAUL making your Number 13 and not 12--and you have mistakenly included him as one of the twelve. In your own words you have admitted that Paul too was an apostle-- in that case there can be any number of apostles as long as they were eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection and were sent out by Christ himself, which Paul was.

(and I see that you do not own up to your mistake, since Matthias is the 12th who replaced Judas, not Paul.)


"“For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “’May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “’May another take his place of leadership. Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."--Acts 1:20-26

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the other 12 were still alive the total including Paul would be 13. Does it state somewhere the total who were still alive by the time Paul became an apostle?

How could the total be 13 when Judas hanged himself and was excluded for treason and betrayal? Do the math: 12 - 1 = 11 + 1 = 12.

But if some maverick wants to make that an even 100 then that is their problem. We have a lot of mavericks coming out of the woodwork.

 

[Nehemiah6]

A piece of advice

All we need is advice from Laura798, who loves to mislead people. That's a lot more fun than sticking to the dull and sober facts.

 

[tourist]

How could the total be 13 when Judas hanged himself and was excluded for treason and betrayal? Do the math: 12 - 1 = 11 + 1 = 12.

But if some maverick wants to make that an even 100 then that is their problem. We have a lot of mavericks coming out of the woodwork.

Mathias, the replacement for Judas would make 12, then 1 more for Paul. 12-1=11+1=12+1=13. In all probability there were probably some that were not mentioned in biblical accounts.

 

[CS1]

 

[fredoheaven]

There were more than 12 Apostles in biblical times but are no longer today. What we are witnessing nowadays are many self-proclaimed "apostles" and are found false. With the completion of the Bible, the gift no longer exists. Perhaps their function as messengers for the gospel still functioning but they were not 'actually eyewitnesses"
1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

 

[fredoheaven]

Today, apostles no longer exist in the church, because there are no men remaining alive who can meet the test of seeing the resurrected Lord.

I agree with this.

 

[Laura798]

Ha, ha! What was that guy's name again--was it Marv Newland?

 

[Laura798]

Mathias, the replacement for Judas would make 12, then 1 more for Paul. 12-1=11+1=12+1=13. In all probability there were probably some that were not mentioned in biblical accounts.

Hi Tourist,

If you see my other post there are 25 mentioned in the New Testament from Acts onward. Prior to Acts in Matthew 9 and 10 we see Jesus sends out the 12 and then another 72 (other books say 70) 12-72 = 84 we can't add the 25 mentioned as some of them are the original apostles along with some of the 72 that were sent out.


"The primary duty of the apostles was to bear witness to Christ’s work and claims. In order to do that effectively, they had to be witnesses of His resurrection."--John MacArthur I will add that they had to be sent by Christ himself.

 

[Laura798]

All we need is advice from Laura798, who loves to mislead people. That's a lot more fun than sticking to the dull and sober facts.

Well, if you think scripture is misleading, then you might need to re-think your theology.

 

[fredoheaven]

No she isn't, LoL.

Relax, Nehemiah. You are stressing out when this should be a polite discussion over scripture. Speaking of which, why are you ignoring the scriptural references that have been made in several posts already about how there were clearly more than twelve?

1 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain. 2 But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict. 3 For our exhortation did not come from error or uncleanness, nor was it in deceit. 4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts. 5 For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness. 6 Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ. (1 Thessalonians 2:1-6)

Now who is he speaking about in these verses?

Paul calls himself, the least of all the Apostle, not even worthy to be called 1 Cor. 15:9. By the time, he founded the church at Thessalonica he was with him Silvanus and Timotheus, whom they speak the gospel, carry out the message of salvation in the capacity which characterizes like those whom Christ has originally sent. For Timothy and Silvanus, we have no record found in the Bible that they were eyewitnesses of Christ even after the resurrection, unlike Paul. It is much of consideration that young Timothy pastors a church

 

[Duckybill]

Yes, God would not only know that, but He also decreed that. Therefore there is no record of those gifts being operational throughout Church history. It is God who told Paul to write specifically that three spiritual gifts would cease. That was prophetic.

Try reading it again.

"Only God would know that".

 

[Duckybill]

I believe you've seen. But can you verify? It's like Bigfoot or space aliens; everyone has belief and stories, no one has proof.

I don't have to verify anything. Believe the Bible and you will see miracles.

 

[Laura798]

How could the total be 13 when Judas hanged himself and was excluded for treason and betrayal? Do the math: 12 - 1 = 11 + 1 = 12.

But if some maverick wants to make that an even 100 then that is their problem. We have a lot of mavericks coming out of the woodwork.

See my post #145

You are the one that added Paul to the 12. Matthias replaced Judas. So now there are 12+1 = 13
You are correct in saying Paul is an apostle. However you are wrong in saying he is one of the 12.

PS there are at least 84--12 of which will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[tourist]

Hi Tourist,

If you see my other post there are 25 mentioned in the New Testament from Acts onward. Prior to Acts in Matthew 9 and 10 we see Jesus sends out the 12 and then another 72 (other books say 70) 12-72 = 84 we can't add the 25 mentioned as some of them are the original apostles along with some of the 72 that were sent out.


"The primary duty of the apostles was to bear witness to Christ’s work and claims. In order to do that effectively, they had to be witnesses of His resurrection."--John MacArthur I will add that they had to be sent by Christ himself.

Could be that these 70 or 72 were apostles. Typically, a disciple is a student and most versions of the bible state that these 70 or 72 were set out by Jesus but makes no mention whether these were now apostles or still disciples. I fully concur with your line of reasoning.

 

[Laura798]

Could be that these 70 or 72 were apostles. Typically, a disciple is a student and most versions of the bible state that these 70 or 72 were set out by Jesus but makes no mention whether these were now apostles or still disciples. I fully concur with your line of reasoning.

First it important to understand what an apostle is and how they are different than a disciple. To qualify as an apostle they must be an eye witness to the risen Christ AND they must have been sent out out by Christ. Miracles are done by all the apostles. Not so with disciples, they may have witnessed the risen Lord, but they were not sent out by him and they did not perform miracles.

Read Matthew 9 and 10--Christ sends out the 12 and then soon after that sends out the 72 (70). In the same exact manner--it's so important to understand that scripture was not divided into chapters and verses when it was written Chapter 10 is a continuation of 9--it is obvious because the language is the same that these were all apostles. The 12 are distinct as they represent the 12 Tribes of Israel and will judge them at the end of the age.