Matthew 24:40 Is the rapture secret?

[Psalm1]

As I said, a near timeless upward movement is hardly travel as in a "U Turn." Your characterization is wrong-headed, in my opinion.

So they continue to heaven as Jesus said? ( in mat 25, Rev 14, acts 1, mat 24, and the last supper dialogue)

 

[randyk]

So they continue to heaven as Jesus said?

My point was that this was not to be characterized as a time consuming journey. That is how "U Turn" would be used, as if you went on a journey in one direction, and then suddenely had to do a "U Turn," turn around and come back.

This isn't how it will take place, and that's not how I've depicted it. In an instant the saints will be called to appear with Christ as he descends from heaven. That is not to be depicted as a "U Turn" unless you wish to mock it.

 

[Psalm1]

You have flipped it. "left" means to be rejected and left to die according to the Greek word used. You spin it into something positive, going against the Greek meaning of the word.

The taken are the ones taken in the rapture and the ones left are left to suffer and die in the wrath of God.

Many years ago perry stone uncovered that same dynamic.
He was debating that "taken and left" in the Greek.
The conclusion was as you are stating.
Good find.

 

[Psalm1]

My point was that this was not to be characterized as a time consuming journey. That is how "U Turn" would be used, as if you went on a journey in one direction, and then suddenely had to do a "U Turn," turn around and come back.

This isn't how it will take place, and that's not how I've depicted it. In an instant the saints will be called to appear with Christ as he descends from heaven. That is not to be depicted as a "U Turn" unless you wish to mock it.

Not mocking.
It is you that seems to be reframing the postrib position.
Do they return to earth from the sky or not?

 

[randyk]

1) yes he does kill all refusing the mark
Without question.

You may not wish to ask the question, but I do: Does Revelation depict the entire earth as perishing, or just 1/4 or 1/3? And I would ask, does Antichrist reign in just one part of the earth, in Europe, or is he omnipresent like God executing people everywhere on earth who reject him?

My understanding is that some will reject him, some killed and others escaping. Some will endure to the end and be alive at Christ's Coming. But a Pretrib Rapture is never taught in the Bible.

2)Rev 14 is not going away.
How do you think you made it go away?

Who said I tried to make it go away? I have no problem with accepting all that Rev 14 foretold!

 

[randyk]

Many years ago perry stone uncovered that same dynamic.
He was debating that "taken and left" in the Greek.
The conclusion was as you are stating.
Good find.

Both the "taken" and the "left" are Jews who are being judged for rejecting Christ and remaining in Jerusalem to defy Rome. Some are taken to their death or into exile. Those "left" are left to manage agricultural fields for Roman soldiers. It is *all* judgment. There is no Rapture in this, in my opinion.

You will, incidentally, find the same principle in previous judgments of God in the Bible. When Assyria or Babylon came against Israel the same thing happened. Many were deported or killed. But a few were always left to act as slaves in their own fields, to produce food for their captors.

 

[randyk]

Not mocking.
It is you that seems to be reframing the postrib position.
Do they return to earth from the sky or not?

We return from heaven with Christ. The point is, we are not "traveling" up to heaven. We are snatched abruptly and instantly, and we are instantly with Christ, glorified, in order to return with him. It is an "instant" Rapture, and not a trip up into the sky.

I have a problem with your characterization, and not with the idea of going up and down. The "up" part is instantaneous, and that is the point I've been making from the beginning. But it seems to take you numerous posts to get that? Or maybe, you just wish to keep arguing it?

 

[Psalm1]

If no saint goes through the trib, who is being killed?

Matt 24 and 25 has those left behind.
Of course they are killed for refusing the mark.
Millions of them.
The church age ends .
Jacob's trouble begins.
Exactly as Romans 11 declares
The 7 yr trib is Jacob's trouble, Israel's trouble.
Hosea illustrates God repurchasing the wife gone awhoring...Israel. the covenant people.
Without Hosea, Ruth, and romans 11, we will never unpack end times.
There are all sorts of "starting places".
Postrib rapture starting place is " anti pretrib rapture"
A very bad starting place

 

[randyk]

Matt 24 and 25 has those left behind.
Postrib rapture starting place is " anti pretrib rapture"
A very bad starting place

That is patently false. Postrib is the traditional rendering of the Church, far, far before there was any such thing as Pretribulationism!

 

[Psalm1]

Both the "taken" and the "left" are Jews who are being judged for rejecting Christ and remaining in Jerusalem to defy Rome. Some are taken to their death or into exile. Those "left" are left to manage agricultural fields for Roman soldiers. It is *all* judgment. There is no Rapture in this, in my opinion.

You will, incidentally, find the same principle in previous judgments of God in the Bible. When Assyria or Babylon came against Israel the same thing happened. Many were deported or killed. But a few were always left to act as slaves in their own fields, to produce food for their captors.

Except Jesus prophesied mat 24 as future.
He referred to Daniel and some was "near future" and some pointed to a distant future of a coming trib and Antichrist.
But Jesus sealed it as in our future as , "trib such as the world has never seen or ever will"
Modern slaughters far outweigh ad 70.

 

[Psalm1]

That is patently false. Postrib is the traditional rendering of the Church, far, far before there was any such thing as Pretribulationism!

All that error of those times, and that is your foundation.
You are depicting your position as legitimate and authenticated by men.
..as is every false doctrine of the past!
Not me.
You never see me seeking the approval of men.
A bible and a cup of coffee.

 

[Cameron143]

Matt 24 and 25 has those left behind.
Of course they are killed for refusing the mark.
Millions of them.
The church age ends .
Jacob's trouble begins.
Exactly as Romans 11 declares
The 7 yr trib is Jacob's trouble, Israel's trouble.
Hosea illustrates God repurchasing the wife gone awhoring...Israel. the covenant people.
Without Hosea, Ruth, and romans 11, we will never unpack end times.
There are all sorts of "starting places".
Postrib rapture starting place is " anti pretrib rapture"
A very bad starting place

I'm not post trib, but why would non-Christians refuse the mark?

 

[randyk]

Except Jesus prophesied mat 24 as future.
He referred to Daniel and some was "near future" and some pointed to a distant future of a coming trib and Antichrist.
But Jesus sealed it as in our future as , "trib such as the world has never seen or ever will"
Modern slaughters far outweigh ad 70.

The principle of "taken and left" are in both past and future judgments. Each time many are killed or exiled, and others are left as slaves.

The Olivet Discourse looks at the 70 AD judgment in light of the 2nd Coming. That judgment (70 AD) would only be the start of an age-long jdgment against Israel, which we call the Jewish Diaspora.

Jesus in the Olivet Discourse addressed Dan 9, but he did not address Dan 7 and the Antichrist.

The "Great Tribulation" is the "greatest judgment" in Israel's history, lasting far longer than the 70 year Babylonian Judgment. It lasts the entire NT age! It threatens the very existence of the Jewish People as a People and as a Nation.

Antichrist's reign of terror will be little different in terms of intensity than any previous reign of terror. See the Jewish Holocaust. But it will be more expansive in terms of being more "global."

 

[randyk]

All that error of those times, and that is your foundation.
You are depicting your position as legitimate and authenticated by men.
..as is every false doctrine of the past!
Not me.
You never see me seeking the approval of men.
A bible and a cup of coffee.

This isn't personal for me. I'm speaking of the truth. I wouldn't call the historic Church's eschatology "error* and then call your own time-limited belief superior. Unwise, in my view.

 

[sawdust]

So where was earth's population gathered preflood?

The Son returns in Rev 19.
That is postrib return.

You are trying to place the rapture there.

All rapture verses are normal life and commerce....which is opposite your chaos, horror and murder setting.
But the AC kills all refusing the mark.

Are you thinking the rapture is Jesus coming for 20 people in bunkers?

The Son returns at the end of the Tribulation period (7 years). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins. The Rapture is not the Second Coming. They are two separate and distinct events. The Rapture is the Church being taken to heaven as Jesus promised in John 14:3. It will occur in a twinkling of an eye, here one nano second, gone the next. The Second Coming is Christ returning to the Earth at the final hour of the Tribulation to end it, remove the wicked, judge the nations and establish His Millennial rule.

I have explained this many times in my postings in this thread. You are simply not hearing what is being said. Where you get this "chaos, horror and murder setting" from is anyone's guess. Jerusalem will be under siege at the time of the Second Coming but the rest of the world will be in it's normal operative mode. There will be less freedom worldwide and there will be a greater degree of "pagan" living but life will be "normal" for a world that rejects Christ. It will be horrible for any believer because they will be under extreme pressure to conform and persecution will be worldwide not localised to Muslim and Communist countries as it is today (generally speaking). We are beginning to see persecution extend to the western world today but it will be much worse during the Tribulation period.

I think you need to go and learn the terms better. Post-tribbers hold to the Second Coming and the Resurrection of the Church (Rapture) as occurring at the same time at the end of the Tribulation. Pre-Tribbers hold to them being two separate events, seven years apart. I am the latter.

I have yet to work out a single thing you have said. None of it makes any sense to me. Maybe if you stopped trying to tell me what I believe and start listening to what I'm saying you might get a better idea and understanding. If you come back with another nonsense post like the above, I will ignore it and our conversation will end. I'm tired of repeating myself. Thank you.

 

[sawdust]

Many years ago perry stone uncovered that same dynamic.
He was debating that "taken and left" in the Greek.
The conclusion was as you are stating.
Good find.

You listen to Perry Stone (assuming it is the one I think)? It explains a lot.

 

[Psalm1]

Both the "taken" and the "left" are Jews who are being judged for rejecting Christ and remaining in Jerusalem to defy Rome. Some are taken to their death or into exile. Those "left" are left to manage agricultural fields for Roman soldiers. It is *all* judgment. There is no Rapture in this, in my opinion.

You will, incidentally, find the same principle in previous judgments of God in the Bible. When Assyria or Babylon came against Israel the same thing happened. Many were deported or killed. But a few were always left to act as slaves in their own fields, to produce food for their captors.

◄ 3880. paralambanó ►

Lexicon

paralambanó: To take, to receive, to take along, to accept​

Original Word: παραλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paralambanó
Pronunciation: pah-rah-lahm-BAH-no
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-am-ban'-o)
KJV: receive, take (unto, with)
NASB: took, received, take, taken, receive, took along, tookaside
Word Origin: [from G3844 (παρά - than) and G2983 (λαμβάνω - receive)]

1. to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation)
2. (by analogy) to assume an office
3. (figuratively) to learn


Truly a pretrib rapture.
the one taken is to a good place as a groom takes his bride.what a coincidence.​

 

[Mem]

◄ 3880. paralambanó ►

Lexicon​

paralambanó: To take, to receive, to take along, to accept

Original Word: παραλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paralambanó
Pronunciation: pah-rah-lahm-BAH-no
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-am-ban'-o)
KJV: receive, take (unto, with)
NASB: took, received, take, taken, receive, took along, tookaside
Word Origin: [from G3844 (παρά - than) and G2983 (λαμβάνω - receive)]

1. to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation)
2. (by analogy) to assume an office
3. (figuratively) to learn


Truly a pretrib rapture.
the one taken is to a good place as a groom takes his bride.what a coincidence.​

After Jesus says, "I tell you, on that night...one will be taken and the other left...," they ask, "Where, Lord?" and He answered, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."
How does this sound like a good place to be taken?

 

[randyk]

◄ 3880. paralambanó ►

Lexicon​

paralambanó: To take, to receive, to take along, to accept

Original Word: παραλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paralambanó
Pronunciation: pah-rah-lahm-BAH-no
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-am-ban'-o)
KJV: receive, take (unto, with)
NASB: took, received, take, taken, receive, took along, tookaside
Word Origin: [from G3844 (παρά - than) and G2983 (λαμβάνω - receive)]

1. to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation)
2. (by analogy) to assume an office
3. (figuratively) to learn


Truly a pretrib rapture.
the one taken is to a good place as a groom takes his bride.what a coincidence.​

It's fine to do a word study. But the critical element is context. No context for a Rapture of the Church to heaven in this particular use of "taken."

Luke 17.35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

The context is the generation of Christ and the judgment of God that comes on a society that is corrupt. It has nothing at all to do with the Church's being caught up into the air.

The part of the Discourse dealing with the taking away of the ungodly Jews and the catching up of the elect is found here:

Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Jesus was anticipating the Roman army coming to Jerusalem and taking away those who had gathered in Jerusalem like a "corpse." And this Jewish Diaspora will last age-long until the "times of the Gentiles" are coming to an end.

Then Christ will come and the saints will be redeemed. In other versions we are told that angels will gather up the elect of Israel. These are the Christians in Israel, and Paul indicates non-Jewish saints will be called up at the same time.

This is the Raputre of the Church, when the entire age comes to a close and Jewish tribulations are brought to an end. This is when Israel's elect and the elect of the world are caught up to Christ and transformed into immortals.

 

[sawdust]

After Jesus says, "I tell you, on that night...one will be taken and the other left...," they ask, "Where, Lord?" and He answered, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."
How does this sound like a good place to be taken?

The word "paralambano" is also used of Satan taking Jesus to the temple and high mountain in His temptations. (Matt.4:5&8) Hardly sounds like the sort Jesus would associate with. Also used of the soldiers taking Jesus away to be crucified. (Jn.19:16)

The word is not solely used of good relationships or pleasant places to visit.

Within the context of Matthew 24 it can only be considered as one taken to a place of destruction just as the flood took those who ignored Noah's preaching to their destruction.