Lost salvation or name not in the book
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I was correcting a mistake.
Wrong: "This verse explicitly states that nothing unclean, including sin, will be allowed into heaven."
Right: "This verse explicitly states that nothing unclean, including sin, will be allowed into New Jerusalem."
I replied on my way out the door anticipating the debate about death and hell that it would be sure to follow. Some would argue that death, of which fear of compels many to bondage and torment, is nothing in comparison to hell but, I'm not convinced these aren't synonymous. Indeed, it is appointed to all men to die once, and so all begin, at the least, with having to look forward to it, and then the judgment... Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't where atheists draw this "death is nothing" idea from.
So know one can know if they are saved until they do an audit of their life at their last breath? Hmm
This keeps coming up over and over again. No genuinely saved person will "willfully remove themselves" from God and Christ.
I understand very well what the Scripture is saying, but if you are with God anywhere that is Heaven to me. Also remember that the New Jerusalem came down from Heaven.
Revelation 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Individual Apostasy
Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
Apostasy (Gk apostasia) appears twice in the NT as a noun (Ac 21:21; 2Th 2:3). But here in Heb 3:12 it
is used as a verb (Gk aphistemi, meaning to "turn away"). The Greek term literally means "standing
away" from God, and it relates to spiritual rebellion, abandonment, withdrawal or turning from what
one has previously believed and experienced in a relationship with Christ. It typically involves denying
once sincere faith, disowning Jesus and abandoning the body of Christ (i.e., the church community), although some who have turned their backs on a relationship with Christ may still pretend to be part of the church. Apostasy is the consequence of a willing and deliberate choice in "departing from the living God" (3:12).
(1) To apostatize means to break off from one's saving relationship with Christ or to withdraw from
union with and faith in him (see article on FAITH AND GRACE, p. 2127). For this reason, individual
apostasy (as differentiated from a group, church, people or nation rejecting God) is possible only for
those who have first experienced God's forgiveness and been spiritually "born again" (Jn 3:3-7) and
renewed through a personal relationship with Christ (cf. Lk 8:13; 6:4-5; 10:29). Apostasy is not simply a
denial of NT belief and teaching by those in the church who do not truly have a personal relationship with Christ. In fact, apostasy may involve two separate but related stages of rejection: (a) theological apostasy, which is a rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and those used by God to write his Word (1Ti 4:1; 2Ti 4:3) and (b) moral apostasy, which involves a former believer willingly breaking away from a personal relationship with Christ and becoming spiritually enslaved again to sin and its lifestyle (Isa 29:13; Mt 23:25-28; Ro 6:15-23; 8:6-13)
(2) The Christian faith is primarily about relationship to and companionship with God. The Bible speaks of God as the Father, Jesus Christ as the Son and those who accept Christ by faith as God's family and children (Ro 8:14-17). This means that spiritual salvation through faith in Christ is personal,relational and requires our individual response. God's grace (i.e., his unearned and undeserved favor, love and spiritual enablement)- made available through the personal sacrifice of Christ-is enough to forgive and save us spiritually and to sustain our relationship with God. In Jesus' illustration about the vine and the branches (Jn 15:1-8), the believer (BRANCH) who remains united in relationship with Christ (VINE) is spiritually secure and has life. However, if that believer becomes spiritually rebellious or faithless toward God and chooses to break from his or her grace-union with Christ, then he or she becomes cut off from the source of life. A person who remains in this condition will, in the end, lose
the privilege of living eternally in the presence of God, just as one who never accepted Christ (cf.
In 15:6).
(3) The Bible gives urgent warnings about this serious and sobering possibility. These warnings are designed both to alert us to the deadly danger of abandoning our union with Christ and to motivate us to remain faithful and obedient to him. We must not ignore or treat lightly God's purpose for these warnings and develop the attitude that says, "the warnings are real, but the possibility of actual apostasy is not." Rather, we must take these warnings seriously, realizing that they apply in a very real sense to how we use our time on earth until we receive our full, complete and final salvation in eternity with God. A few of the many NT passages that warn us are: Mt 24:4-5, 11-13; Lk 12:46; Jn 15:1-6; 14:21-22; Ro 11:17-21; 1Co 15:1-2; Col 1:23; 1Ti 4:1, 16; 6:10-12; 2Ti 4:2-5; Heb 2:1-3; 3:7-19; 4:1, 6-7; 6:4-9; 10:26-31; 12:25; Jas 5:19-20; 2Pe 1:10; 2:20-22; 1Jn 2:23-25.
(4) Examples of actual apostasy can be found in Ex 32; 2Ki 17:7-23; Ps 106; Isa 1:2-4; Jer 2:1-9; Ac 1:25;
Gal 5:4; 1Ti 1:18-20; 2Pe 2:1, 15, 20-22; Jude 1:4, 11-13; see article on THE AGE OF THE ANTICHRIST,
P.2351, for comments on apostasy predicted to occur within the church in the last days before Christ returns to take the faithful in his churches from the world.
(5) The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:
with him through faith in Christ-become spiritually unconcerned, resistant or outright rebellious.
a) Believers-those who have accepted God's forgiveness and entered a personal relationship
These individuals show their unbelief by failing to take seriously all of the truths, challenges, warnings, promises and teachings of God's Word (Mk 1:15; Lk 8:13; Jn 5:44, 47; 8:46).
(b) If the realities and desires of the world become a higher priority than the realities and desires of God's kingdom and purposes, then believers gradually cease to recognize and experience
Companionship with God through Christ (Heb 4:16; 7:19, 25; 11:6).
(c) Because of the deceitfulness of sin (i.e., anything that offends or defies God or falls short of
standard), believers become increasingly tolerant of sin in their own lives (1Co 6:9-10; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:13). They no longer love what is right and hate what is wrong (see Heb 1:9, note).
(d) Their hearts become spiritually hardened (Heb 3:8, 13), resistant and unresponsive to God.
Eventually, they openly reject his way (3:10), ignoring the repeated inner voice and rebuke of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30; 1Th 5:19-22)
(e) The Holy Spirit becomes grieved (Eph 4:30; cf. Heb 3:7-8), his fire is put out (1Th 5:19) and his
temple (i.e., the person's body and life) is violated (1Co 3:16). As a result, the Holy Spirit eventually
departs from the believer's life (Jdg 16:20; Ps 51:11; Ro 8:13; 1Co 3:16-17; Heb 3:14).
(6) If spiritual "backsliding" (i.e., neglecting or abandoning one's faith and personal relationship
with Christ) continues on its course without change, individuals may eventually reach the point where no new beginning is possible. That is to say, they will not be able to start over and renew their faith in God because no one is able to do this on their own apart from God's grace and the power of his Holy Spirit.
(a) Those who once had a saving experience with Christ but deliberately and continually harden their hearts to the Spirit's voice (Heb 3:7-19), continue to sin willfully (Heb 10:26) and refuse to turn from their own way back to God may reach a point of no return where repentance and salvation are no longer possible (Heb 6:4-6; see Dt 29:18-21, note; 1Sa 2:25, note; Pr 29:1, note). There is a limit to God's patience (see 1Sa 3:11-14; Mt 12:31-32; 2Th 2:9-11; Heb 10:26-29, 31; 1Jn 5:16).
(b) This point of no return cannot be defined in advance. The only safeguard against the danger of ultimate (i.e., full and final) apostasy is to take this warning seriously: "Today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Heb 3:7-8, 15; 4:7).
(7) It must be emphasized that while spiritual backsliding is a danger for all who drift from faith in
Christ (Heb 2:1-3) and turn away from God (6:6), ultimate apostasy resulting in the hopeless condition described in the previous point does not occur without constant and deliberate resistance against the Holy Spirit (see Mt 12:31, note on sin against the Holy Spirit). Just as we are not saved by our own works and efforts, but by God's grace (see Eph 2:8-9; Tit 3:5), neither are we fully condemned to separation from God by our actions alone (although we will be judged by them; 2Co 5:10). People are saved spiritually by accepting God's grace and putting their faith in Christ; and people are condemned spiritually by rejecting (or simply not accepting) God's grace and refusing to put their faith in Christ (cf. 12:15, 25; Ac 19:19; 2Th 2:10; Rev 16:9). Refusing to have faith in God can be expressed in several ways, including refusing to believe in God, refusing to rely on God, refusing to take God at his Word, refusing to admit the wrongness of our own way, refusing to accept God's way of spiritual salvation through Christ alone and refusing to accept God's help and involvement in our lives. A person who
allows his or her heart to become hardened or rebellious toward God by refusing him in any of these ways is in serious danger of rejecting God permanently (3:12).
(8) Some who reject their faith and abandon a true relationship with God (Heb 3:12) may still think
they are Christians. However, their spiritual neglect and unconcern toward the demands of Christ, the
inner voice of the Holy Spirit and the warnings of Scripture prove that they are in rebellion against
God. Because of this possibility of self-deception, Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved
to "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2Co 13:5, note).
(9) Those who genuinely become concerned about their spiritual condition and have a desire to
return to God in true repentance (i.e., changing one's attitude toward God, admitting sin, turning from one's own way and submitting to God) can be sure that they have not committed the unforgivable
sin (cf. Mk 3:29), or ultimate apostasy. God's Word clearly affirms that he does not want anyone to
perish or be spiritually lost and separated from him for eternity (2Pe 3:9; cf. Isa 1:18-19; 55:6-7). In fact,
the heavenly Father will joyfully receive any wayward, rebellious or lost child who truly repents and returns to him (compare Gal 5:4 with 4:19; 1Co 5:1-5 with 2Co 2:5-11; see also Lk 15:11-24; Ro 11:20-23; Jas 5:19-20; Rev 3:14-20; note the example of Peter, Mt 16:16; 26:74-75; Jn 21:15-22).
Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
Apostasy (Gk apostasia) appears twice in the NT as a noun (Ac 21:21; 2Th 2:3). But here in Heb 3:12 it
is used as a verb (Gk aphistemi, meaning to "turn away"). The Greek term literally means "standing
away" from God, and it relates to spiritual rebellion, abandonment, withdrawal or turning from what
one has previously believed and experienced in a relationship with Christ. It typically involves denying
once sincere faith, disowning Jesus and abandoning the body of Christ (i.e., the church community), although some who have turned their backs on a relationship with Christ may still pretend to be part of the church. Apostasy is the consequence of a willing and deliberate choice in "departing from the living God" (3:12).
(1) To apostatize means to break off from one's saving relationship with Christ or to withdraw from
union with and faith in him (see article on FAITH AND GRACE, p. 2127). For this reason, individual
apostasy (as differentiated from a group, church, people or nation rejecting God) is possible only for
those who have first experienced God's forgiveness and been spiritually "born again" (Jn 3:3-7) and
renewed through a personal relationship with Christ (cf. Lk 8:13; 6:4-5; 10:29). Apostasy is not simply a
denial of NT belief and teaching by those in the church who do not truly have a personal relationship with Christ. In fact, apostasy may involve two separate but related stages of rejection: (a) theological apostasy, which is a rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and those used by God to write his Word (1Ti 4:1; 2Ti 4:3) and (b) moral apostasy, which involves a former believer willingly breaking away from a personal relationship with Christ and becoming spiritually enslaved again to sin and its lifestyle (Isa 29:13; Mt 23:25-28; Ro 6:15-23; 8:6-13)
(2) The Christian faith is primarily about relationship to and companionship with God. The Bible speaks of God as the Father, Jesus Christ as the Son and those who accept Christ by faith as God's family and children (Ro 8:14-17). This means that spiritual salvation through faith in Christ is personal,relational and requires our individual response. God's grace (i.e., his unearned and undeserved favor, love and spiritual enablement)- made available through the personal sacrifice of Christ-is enough to forgive and save us spiritually and to sustain our relationship with God. In Jesus' illustration about the vine and the branches (Jn 15:1-8), the believer (BRANCH) who remains united in relationship with Christ (VINE) is spiritually secure and has life. However, if that believer becomes spiritually rebellious or faithless toward God and chooses to break from his or her grace-union with Christ, then he or she becomes cut off from the source of life. A person who remains in this condition will, in the end, lose
the privilege of living eternally in the presence of God, just as one who never accepted Christ (cf.
In 15:6).
(3) The Bible gives urgent warnings about this serious and sobering possibility. These warnings are designed both to alert us to the deadly danger of abandoning our union with Christ and to motivate us to remain faithful and obedient to him. We must not ignore or treat lightly God's purpose for these warnings and develop the attitude that says, "the warnings are real, but the possibility of actual apostasy is not." Rather, we must take these warnings seriously, realizing that they apply in a very real sense to how we use our time on earth until we receive our full, complete and final salvation in eternity with God. A few of the many NT passages that warn us are: Mt 24:4-5, 11-13; Lk 12:46; Jn 15:1-6; 14:21-22; Ro 11:17-21; 1Co 15:1-2; Col 1:23; 1Ti 4:1, 16; 6:10-12; 2Ti 4:2-5; Heb 2:1-3; 3:7-19; 4:1, 6-7; 6:4-9; 10:26-31; 12:25; Jas 5:19-20; 2Pe 1:10; 2:20-22; 1Jn 2:23-25.
(4) Examples of actual apostasy can be found in Ex 32; 2Ki 17:7-23; Ps 106; Isa 1:2-4; Jer 2:1-9; Ac 1:25;
Gal 5:4; 1Ti 1:18-20; 2Pe 2:1, 15, 20-22; Jude 1:4, 11-13; see article on THE AGE OF THE ANTICHRIST,
P.2351, for comments on apostasy predicted to occur within the church in the last days before Christ returns to take the faithful in his churches from the world.
(5) The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:
with him through faith in Christ-become spiritually unconcerned, resistant or outright rebellious.
a) Believers-those who have accepted God's forgiveness and entered a personal relationship
These individuals show their unbelief by failing to take seriously all of the truths, challenges, warnings, promises and teachings of God's Word (Mk 1:15; Lk 8:13; Jn 5:44, 47; 8:46).
(b) If the realities and desires of the world become a higher priority than the realities and desires of God's kingdom and purposes, then believers gradually cease to recognize and experience
Companionship with God through Christ (Heb 4:16; 7:19, 25; 11:6).
(c) Because of the deceitfulness of sin (i.e., anything that offends or defies God or falls short of
standard), believers become increasingly tolerant of sin in their own lives (1Co 6:9-10; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:13). They no longer love what is right and hate what is wrong (see Heb 1:9, note).
(d) Their hearts become spiritually hardened (Heb 3:8, 13), resistant and unresponsive to God.
Eventually, they openly reject his way (3:10), ignoring the repeated inner voice and rebuke of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30; 1Th 5:19-22)
(e) The Holy Spirit becomes grieved (Eph 4:30; cf. Heb 3:7-8), his fire is put out (1Th 5:19) and his
temple (i.e., the person's body and life) is violated (1Co 3:16). As a result, the Holy Spirit eventually
departs from the believer's life (Jdg 16:20; Ps 51:11; Ro 8:13; 1Co 3:16-17; Heb 3:14).
(6) If spiritual "backsliding" (i.e., neglecting or abandoning one's faith and personal relationship
with Christ) continues on its course without change, individuals may eventually reach the point where no new beginning is possible. That is to say, they will not be able to start over and renew their faith in God because no one is able to do this on their own apart from God's grace and the power of his Holy Spirit.
(a) Those who once had a saving experience with Christ but deliberately and continually harden their hearts to the Spirit's voice (Heb 3:7-19), continue to sin willfully (Heb 10:26) and refuse to turn from their own way back to God may reach a point of no return where repentance and salvation are no longer possible (Heb 6:4-6; see Dt 29:18-21, note; 1Sa 2:25, note; Pr 29:1, note). There is a limit to God's patience (see 1Sa 3:11-14; Mt 12:31-32; 2Th 2:9-11; Heb 10:26-29, 31; 1Jn 5:16).
(b) This point of no return cannot be defined in advance. The only safeguard against the danger of ultimate (i.e., full and final) apostasy is to take this warning seriously: "Today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Heb 3:7-8, 15; 4:7).
(7) It must be emphasized that while spiritual backsliding is a danger for all who drift from faith in
Christ (Heb 2:1-3) and turn away from God (6:6), ultimate apostasy resulting in the hopeless condition described in the previous point does not occur without constant and deliberate resistance against the Holy Spirit (see Mt 12:31, note on sin against the Holy Spirit). Just as we are not saved by our own works and efforts, but by God's grace (see Eph 2:8-9; Tit 3:5), neither are we fully condemned to separation from God by our actions alone (although we will be judged by them; 2Co 5:10). People are saved spiritually by accepting God's grace and putting their faith in Christ; and people are condemned spiritually by rejecting (or simply not accepting) God's grace and refusing to put their faith in Christ (cf. 12:15, 25; Ac 19:19; 2Th 2:10; Rev 16:9). Refusing to have faith in God can be expressed in several ways, including refusing to believe in God, refusing to rely on God, refusing to take God at his Word, refusing to admit the wrongness of our own way, refusing to accept God's way of spiritual salvation through Christ alone and refusing to accept God's help and involvement in our lives. A person who
allows his or her heart to become hardened or rebellious toward God by refusing him in any of these ways is in serious danger of rejecting God permanently (3:12).
(8) Some who reject their faith and abandon a true relationship with God (Heb 3:12) may still think
they are Christians. However, their spiritual neglect and unconcern toward the demands of Christ, the
inner voice of the Holy Spirit and the warnings of Scripture prove that they are in rebellion against
God. Because of this possibility of self-deception, Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved
to "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2Co 13:5, note).
(9) Those who genuinely become concerned about their spiritual condition and have a desire to
return to God in true repentance (i.e., changing one's attitude toward God, admitting sin, turning from one's own way and submitting to God) can be sure that they have not committed the unforgivable
sin (cf. Mk 3:29), or ultimate apostasy. God's Word clearly affirms that he does not want anyone to
perish or be spiritually lost and separated from him for eternity (2Pe 3:9; cf. Isa 1:18-19; 55:6-7). In fact,
the heavenly Father will joyfully receive any wayward, rebellious or lost child who truly repents and returns to him (compare Gal 5:4 with 4:19; 1Co 5:1-5 with 2Co 2:5-11; see also Lk 15:11-24; Ro 11:20-23; Jas 5:19-20; Rev 3:14-20; note the example of Peter, Mt 16:16; 26:74-75; Jn 21:15-22).
Because they so deeply believed in Him that they were terrified of Him.
So ... wait, why won't they be saved then? They clearly believe.
The answer lies in obedience to God's Commandments.
Demons and unholy men do not obey God's Commandments and they will not be found in Heaven no matter their level of faith.
For those who love God keep His Commandments.
John 14:15
John 15:14
1 John 5:3
Neither is obedience to the 10 Commandments.
Jesus said "My burden is light" because the Commandments are not difficult for those who truly love Christ.
Can you tell us which Commandments are so impossible to keep as to compare them to a "tightrope" please?
No one here yet has claimed that the Commandments must be kept perfectly.
How many Christians do you know who even make an effort to keep all 10?
You clearly do not based on your position in this discussion.
That's pretty silly.
They lived in heaven among all the holy angels and saw God the face of God Almighty and served Him and know more about God and all creation than any man who has ever lived before being cast out of heaven.
And you claim they don't believe in God or heaven or anything spiritual?
Your credibility is on the line here.
My advice is that you not focus on your experiences of answers to your prayers or any other way. God gives four answers to prayer: no, yes, not the way you thought, and not yet. Sometimes, it takes years of prayers that you know are God's will before he answers in his own time. We Christians in our fast-food culture sometimes expect instant answers. It's like the dog's tail trying to wag the dog. Sometimes, God wants us to learn patient persistence in prayer. I regard to your other topic, no one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' return. Once saved, always saved--a clear teaching of Scripture!
There is a difference between believing about God and believing in God. Faith is either all in or all out. It is the evidence of things unseen. Either you see the evidence and are convinced, or you are not. Half believing is doubt, not faith.
As far as my credibility goes, perhaps you should save your judgment for yourself. Hate to see you with an eyeful.
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (demons) believe also and tremble."
James 2:19
So your case is that angels have no faith.
Gotcha.
