Loss of salvation???

[PennEd]

PennEd,,,I've known you quite a few years and I can safely say that you are a nice person and I respect you for that.
You are truly transfomred by your belief in God and are following Jesus as best you can.
No ad hominums and only your understanding of scripture.
This is good in a discussion.
For sure our doctrinal beliefs will not save us but only our Lord Jesus and our willingness to follow Him and be His
disciples.

I cannot say the same for eveyrone on this thread.

Well, what can I say. Thank you for your kind words.

But frankly, I’m not sure why someone leaves the site, only to come back with a vastly different screen name.

Maybe you reintroduced yourself somewhere earlier, but when discussing theological issues, we find ourselves at a disadvantage.

You know all our history, and we don’t know yours.

Now I’m left to guess who you are.

 

[HeIsHere]

We respond in faith-obedience-love and are to remain in faith-obedience-love doing good works - part of which IMO is remaining in faith-obedience-love.

Yes, we MUST obey and yes, we MUST love. If we put all of this together we start our relationship responding to God's love and God's grace by believing, which is obeying, which is loving. This is how He has it structured and it is His structure and His Grace Salvation Plan provided in His initiating Love. He starts us out marching on the correct foot even though we may not realize it at first.

So you keep yourself saved?
Christ Jesus only part?

There seems to be some confusion on What Paul is actually teaching.
Romans 12:1
Obedience is our reasonable service not the means to salvation.

Our saved position IN Christ by grace through faith without works is NOT our practice in discipleship.

Without this foundational truth through which all scripture is understood, well the Book becomes one big mess.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, what can I say. Thank you for your kind words.

But frankly, I’m not sure why someone leaves the site, only to come back with a vastly different screen name.

Maybe you reintroduced yourself somewhere earlier, but when discussing theological issues, we find ourselves at a disadvantage.

You know all our history, and we don’t know yours.

Now I’m left to guess who you are.

FranC and God'sGrace101 >>>> see Not By Works thread.

 

[Genez]

Most interesting.

You NEVER explained yourself....
but you know that I misunderstand.

Most interesting.

It involves what is called "capacity" for understanding.

Do you think Paul with all his genius could make grace understandable to legalists?
They would just simply say that he could not explain himself.

You have been baptized into a system that you accept as the norm for Christianity.

 

[Genez]

Isaiah 55:8
Yes. This teaches exactly why analogies don't function well.

Actually... it is the very reason they can be helpful.

It just has to be a good analogy.
One granted by grace.

 

[Genez]

you've posted very interesting verses,,,but I fear I'd need a serious contender to disuss this
and YOU are not that person.

However,,,I will run through it quickly.

You quoted:

1. All the Father give me will come to me.

How does this square with:


John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


Which statement is correct?
Remember, scripture cannot conflict with scripture.



You quoted:

2. And this is the will of the Father, that I lose none of all those He has given me.


Let's look at the verse:

New International Version
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

New Living Translation
And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.

English Standard Version
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Berean Standard Bible
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

Berean Literal Bible
Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that He has given Me, I should lose none of it, but will raise it up in the last day.

King James Bible
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

New King James Version
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

New American Standard Bible
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.

NASB 1995
“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

NASB 1977
“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Amplified Bible
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.

Christian Standard Bible
This is the will of him who sent me: that I should lose none of those he has given me but should raise them up on the last day.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This is the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those He has given Me but should raise them up on the last day.

American Standard Version
And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Contemporary English Version
and he wants to make certain that none of the ones he has given me will be lost. Instead, he wants me to raise them to life on the last day.

English Revised Version
And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The one who sent me doesn't want me to lose any of those he gave me. He wants me to bring them back to life on the last day.

Good News Translation
And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day.

International Standard Version
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day.

NET Bible
Now this is the will of the one who sent me--that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.

New Heart English Bible
This is the will of him who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.

Webster's Bible Translation
And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Weymouth New Testament
And this is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it to life on the last day.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

World English Bible
This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.



Here are my questions to you:
WHAT is going to be resurrected?
is it WHO or a WHAT and what would that WHAT be?

Notice that in verse John 6:35 Jesus is speaking of persons...
but it changes in verse 37 and 39.


John 6:35-39
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


Read verses 38 and 39 a few times.
Is Jesus still speaking of PERSONS?
Or is He speaking about something He came down to earth,,,,at the command of Father,,,,,TO DO?
What is it that Jesus was sent TO DO?

Note that Jesus refers to his subject as: IT
Jesus will raise IT up on the last day...
not WHO

How to reconcile this?

In verse 40 Jesus repeats what the entire NT teaches:
We must behold (accept) the Son
and
BELIEVE in Him (what does believe mean if we're already told to BEHOLD Jesus)
in order to be raised up on the last day.


You can either study this a little...
or come back with some silly remark.

Up to you.

My time-wasting alarm warning just went off.

bye!

 

[TruthDefender]

It doesn't get much clearer than that!

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise
them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:37-40

Yes, very clear; for those who hold onto their faith.

 

[markss]

Sorry, I am late to the party, but consider the following conditions.

If salvation is "transactional": I give God something he wants, i.e., faith, and he gives me salvation on his part, then it is possible to fall away.

if however, salvation is "relational,", God establishes a relation with a follower of Christ such that God has dedicated Himself to their salvation, then our salvation depends on God's faithfulness, which will never change.

I think the Bible teaches us that salvation is relational. He is the one who completes good work in us.

Amen!! And welcome to the party!!

I agree, we have to remember what "salvation" is, not just a punched ticket so you can board the train when you die, but to know the true living God, our Creator.

We been reconciled - restored to relationship - and that while we were still enemies of God. Now that we are His children, are we to believe we are in greater jeopardy than we were before??

I think your point is fully sound.

Much love!

 

[TruthDefender]

That is what the loss of salvation crowd has......."rich soil" could mean loss of salvation.

Never perish means never perish.

No condemnation means no condemnation.

Imperishable is imperishable.

Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ means nothing can.

Simple, straight forward language.......And meant to be that way, because we are babies after salvation. Daddy wants us to KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Religious, self righteous prigs would love to steal that from His children.

Yes, for those who hold onto their faith!

When a person backs away, turns their back to God, for whatever reason, and loses faith, what happens? Sin separates you from God. Does it not??

If you refuse to repent, what happens??

 

[Genez]

Well said, my friend. Persecutionis leading to suffering in that sithation is one such motivator for some to deny Christ to save their lives. That is what our victim card player in here missed entirely, with him trying to shove salvation into the meaning of a sentence that clearly raised up suffering and reigning with Christ as its meaning and topical aim. Those who deny Him in suffering, they are not worthy to reign with Him in the Heavenlies.

As I pointed out in my post, salvation is not at all in view of that sentence, but the silly antics in the ranks of the salvational loss gang betrays some sort of sick glee with the game of injecting alternative meaning into the texts to try and win the day...at any cost, even to their own integrity.

MM

The Salvation can be lost mentality consists of?

"God? ...
On the Cross?
You forgot and missed something!
It was not quite finished!"

I am tired of dumb people who wear a cross around their neck.

With me, they will argue with.

By confronting me they seek a false sense of reassurance.
With God?
They will not stand a chance.

He is the Word!

 

[HeIsHere]

I am convinced those who preach continued salvation "by personal maintenance" have not really understood the Good News.

"Jesus saves" actually becomes completely meaningless.

 

[Genez]

What if we stop abiding in Him?
If it's not possible,,,
why does He warn us of it?

He warns us to abide in His Word because God wants to utilize us in countering the lies of the Devil.

You see, the Devil seeks witnesses to his lies.
Abide in God's Doctrines and the Devil will have to flee.

Right now... The Devil is making his appeal case to try to get out of the Lake of Fire.
We are called to be witnesses against him...

But?
Some believers who cling to their arrogance insist that the Devil is not all bad.

God tells us?
Abide in Truth and stop trying to save your own life that made you feel strong about yourself.

Not everyone has a problem with what I just stated.

 

[TruthDefender]

This is pretty clear:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Genez]

Replace "you" with us all (even our Teachers).

Look up Bayes Theorem when you get a chance, if you so choose to. Even Bayesian Hermeneutics.

That was "very" helpful."

Would you like a little jam on your toast?

Detachment is not going to save you.

 

[TruthDefender]

This is pretty clear that Salvation can be lost:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Genez]

It doesn't get much clearer than that!

So was the command given to Adam and the woman in the Garden....

 

[HeIsHere]

This is pretty clear:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

They were saved, they were partakers of the Holy Spirit, but fell back to law keeping.

And since they were saved which is a once in time occurrence it cannot be done again like animal sacrifices and trying to do so puts the final and complete work of Christ Jesus to open shame.

No losable salvation in view.

 

[Toknow]

Well, what can I say. Thank you for your kind words.

But frankly, I’m not sure why someone leaves the site, only to come back with a vastly different screen name.

Maybe you reintroduced yourself somewhere earlier, but when discussing theological issues, we find ourselves at a disadvantage.

You know all our history, and we don’t know yours.

Now I’m left to guess who you are.

I know you from a different Forum...
which you have not been back to for a long time.
We don't have to agree on theological issues...
we just have to be nice to each other,
as Jesus would want.

 

[HeIsHere]

I know you from a different Forum...
which you have not been back to for a long time.
We don't have to agree on theological issues...
we just have to be nice to each other,
as Jesus would want.

Actually, we are called to protect the complete Good News of Christ Jesus, also we need to expose false doctrine, especially the one with no power to save.

Other forum, lol.

 

[Genez]

This is pretty clear that Salvation can be lost:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Do you know what that was even about?

Jewish believers were continuing animal sacrifices in the Temple for their sins!
They knew too much to not know better.
They were just as bad as Catholics who refuse to give up Mary Worship.
All emotionalism.

The writer of Hebrews was warning sincere believers to stop wasting their time trying to convince those committing the blasphemy
to stop. "Leave them be. You move on and continue in maturing in Christ!"

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation,
though, we speak in this manner. Hebrews 6:9


grace and peace ..........