Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 2:19~~They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.

A believer who does not know they have eternal life will never stay with a doctrinal church/teacher, they will leave.

They are on the broad path, every wind will blow them......Saved as if through fire.

Just for your information Kroogz....

Most denominations teach that salvation can be lost.

It's some non-denominational types that preach heresy.

You see, OSAS has NEVER been taught in the church since the time of Jesus.
It's a new teaching from about 200 years ago.

Any new teaching that is NOT taught by either Jesus or the Apostles will be heretical in nature
because Jesus was the last and ultimate revelation.

 

[Toknow]

Your words reveal living proof that it is misunedrstood.

Most interesting.

You NEVER explained yourself....
but you know that I misunderstand.

Most interesting.

 

[Toknow]

He will deny us reign with Him. Simple.

We have eternal life. We can be a private or a general for Him.....Our choice.
1 Tim 6:15
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

1. Your posted verse has nothing to do with your statement.
You should really learn how to use scripture.


2. Let's look at 2 Timothy again since there seems to be quite a confusion here.


2 Timothy 2:10-12
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;



1. Please note verse 1: Paul is speaking about OUR SALVATION....not being a private or general. It's best to just read scripture and not add to it our own ideas.

2. Verse 12 states that IF we endure, we will reign with HIm,,,,from heaven, at our salvation.
3. Verse 12 If we DENY JESUS ..... HE will also deny us.
You might remember what Jesus stated here:
Matthew 10:33
33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.


Sounds rather serious, doesn't it?

 

[Toknow]

​

Proverbs 3:5-6​

​

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
​

Isaiah 55:8​

​

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.​

What is clear to you may not be what it means.....

Some things require learning a good deal of things before what may seem clear to you is cleared up

Proverbs 3:5-6 is a really good verse for showing others how we are supposed to follow God and depend on Him
and every word that comes out of His mouth...because He has so much more wisdom that we do and we'll always be better off HEARING God.

Isaiah 55:8
Yes. This teaches exactly why analogies don't function well.

And what anyone here THINKS is of no importance.

Only what we can support with scripture is important and valid.

And, again, you really should learn how to use scripture.
You don't seem able to match up scripture with your statements/opinions.

 

[Toknow]

Well, I agree with you and others that believe you can lose your Salvation.

You certainly can!

I thank the Lord for those of us that KNOW we can’t!

BECAUSE, we KNOW the One who saved us and keeps us saved, and more importantly He KNOWS us!

So congratulations! You win! YOU, can lose your Salvation!

PennEd,,,I've known you quite a few years and I can safely say that you are a nice person and I respect you for that.
You are truly transfomred by your belief in God and are following Jesus as best you can.
No ad hominums and only your understanding of scripture.
This is good in a discussion.
For sure our doctrinal beliefs will not save us but only our Lord Jesus and our willingness to follow Him and be His
disciples.

I cannot say the same for eveyrone on this thread.

 

[Toknow]

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise
them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:37-40

you've posted very interesting verses,,,but I fear I'd need a serious contender to disuss this
and YOU are not that person.

However,,,I will run through it quickly.

You quoted:

1. All the Father give me will come to me.

How does this square with:


John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


Which statement is correct?
Remember, scripture cannot conflict with scripture.



You quoted:

2. And this is the will of the Father, that I lose none of all those He has given me.


Let's look at the verse:

New International Version
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

New Living Translation
And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.

English Standard Version
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Berean Standard Bible
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

Berean Literal Bible
Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that He has given Me, I should lose none of it, but will raise it up in the last day.

King James Bible
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

New King James Version
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

New American Standard Bible
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.

NASB 1995
“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

NASB 1977
“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Amplified Bible
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.

Christian Standard Bible
This is the will of him who sent me: that I should lose none of those he has given me but should raise them up on the last day.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This is the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those He has given Me but should raise them up on the last day.

American Standard Version
And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Contemporary English Version
and he wants to make certain that none of the ones he has given me will be lost. Instead, he wants me to raise them to life on the last day.

English Revised Version
And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The one who sent me doesn't want me to lose any of those he gave me. He wants me to bring them back to life on the last day.

Good News Translation
And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day.

International Standard Version
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day.

NET Bible
Now this is the will of the one who sent me--that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.

New Heart English Bible
This is the will of him who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.

Webster's Bible Translation
And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Weymouth New Testament
And this is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it to life on the last day.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

World English Bible
This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.



Here are my questions to you:
WHAT is going to be resurrected?
is it WHO or a WHAT and what would that WHAT be?

Notice that in verse John 6:35 Jesus is speaking of persons...
but it changes in verse 37 and 39.


John 6:35-39
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


Read verses 38 and 39 a few times.
Is Jesus still speaking of PERSONS?
Or is He speaking about something He came down to earth,,,,at the command of Father,,,,,TO DO?
What is it that Jesus was sent TO DO?

Note that Jesus refers to his subject as: IT
Jesus will raise IT up on the last day...
not WHO

How to reconcile this?

In verse 40 Jesus repeats what the entire NT teaches:
We must behold (accept) the Son
and
BELIEVE in Him (what does believe mean if we're already told to BEHOLD Jesus)
in order to be raised up on the last day.


You can either study this a little...
or come back with some silly remark.

Up to you.

 

[Toknow]

That is what the loss of salvation crowd has......."rich soil" could mean loss of salvation.

Never perish means never perish.

No condemnation means no condemnation.

Imperishable is imperishable.

Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ means nothing can.

Simple, straight forward language.......And meant to be that way, because we are babies after salvation. Daddy wants us to KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Religious, self righteous prigs would love to steal that from His children.

What is a prig?
Are you a prig?

Does your type of Christianity teach this to you?
To give odd descriptions to your fellow humankind?

The above might be true
except for all those
IF's that Paul states and are all over the NT.

And who can be more self-righteous than to think one can be saved without obedience to God.
And, it seems to me, that obedience to God does NOT INCLUDE calling others odd names to define them...
such a prig.

 

[Toknow]

Exactly! He gives you a choice, some continue and some fall away…..

My point is that OSAS is faulty, not from God.

Yes ma'am.
We can be sure it's a faulty doctrine.
It's A NEW doctrine from about 200 years ago.
It was NEVER taught in the church untill then.

It's a misunderstanding of the Perseverance of the Saints which is a reformed/calvinist belief.

Seems that some professing the Christian faith though it to be a good idea.

So they dismessed all of the other reformed/calvinist teachings but held on to this one...
well, it doesn't work that way.

(actually it doesn't work in the calvinist way either, but that's a different topic)


If Paul says IF
we better pay attention to what comes after that word !


Colossians 1:22-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away


IF we are not moved away from the faith....
IF we remain firmly established and steadfast....

then

we will be presented to God holy and blameless.


IF we are moved away from the faith
IF we do not remain firmly established and steadfast

then

we will NOT be presented to God holy and blameless.



Seems easy enough, right?
Pesky word that IF !!

Some on this thread would prefer that it were not in the NT...
but, alas, it is there - clear for everyone to read.

 

[Toknow]

I suppose, you suppose. that we all know what ECF means?

You should know what it means.
Have you not studied some church history so as to be able to discern what are
Christian teachings and what are not?

 

[Toknow]

Our perception of love can't help but influence our reading. But, to me, that reading comes to close to "if you love me, then you will earn it," which doesn't sit quite right to me. There's always the possibility that my perception of love could be distorted, of course. Nonetheless, if it is meant to be read in the future tense then my equation would include your view as well as mine, as it would figure for c as much as it figures for a or b, where c is keeping His commandments, a is love and b is Him.
\[ c\^2 = a\^2 + b\^2 \]

Keeping with the formula of the Pythagorean theorem, I think the equation would remain true if the idea were formulated as an obedience to love being equated with guarding Him.

I didn't look at the video @Toknow offered about analogies. I only went as far as to follow the discussing about them being hard to understand, which is understandable, considering it's using language, which is inherently spiritual in nature, to explain language, which is inherently spiritual in nature, and all. I'm sure it just ends up looking like a bunch of scribbles. :/

I'm not too good with math so I'll leave that discussion to you and @studier ....
both much more scholarly than I can even dream of.

As to analogies....the only reason I posted the video was due to a discussion on how woefully inadequate analogies are.

There's a member on here that insists on using analogies.
I've repeated quite a few times that using scripture would be much better.

Analogies don't work with God.
We could use them, I guess, but why when we have scripture?
The other member keeps talking about how he treats his wife well.
This is fine. But what if he didn't? Would a divorce ensue?
Does God demand more than a wife?
is a wife as holy as God and request that the spouse be as holy?

I just don't care for analogies because WE are NOT GOD and we can only go
by what He has revealed to us.
We should not even pretend to know everything about God.
Does an ant know everything about a human?
Same thing.

 

[sawdust]

God doesn't need our permission to work in our lives?
So you DO NOT believe in free will?
So you apparently are Calvinist in your belief system.

Apparently you think free will means you get to tell God what He can and can't do?

Good luck with that.

I don't read the Forums to learn about God.

I read the word of God.

We are saved by every word that comes out of the mouth of God.


Matthew 4:4
4But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”


Jesus said to be baptized.
Jesus said we could forfeit our salvation.


I say that we better believe what JESUS taught.

Well, going by your response, you didn't get what I was saying.

So you state:
THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT NEED OUR PERMISSION TO RESIDE IN OUR BODY.
ARE BODIES HAVE BEEN SEALED.
GOD REMAINS WITH US WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.


In case you're not aware...all of the above statements are reformed/calvinist in nature.
They are referring to:
IRRESITIBLE GRACE


You might want to find out about it.
If you're not calvinist...
don't speak like one.

Has nothing to do with irresistible grace, everything to do with what the verse stated. You were bought with a price, you belong to God, and you are indwelt and sealed to the day of redemption. If you disagree, bring your receipts to show what I said is wrong. Show me from scripture how God needs your permission to do what He does.

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

One's resistance does not dictate to the Lord what He will do. He remains faithful even when we are unfaithful.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.


Btw. Calvin was not completely wrong. You could learn a thing or two from him.

 

[Toknow]

Apparently you think free will means you get to tell God what He can and can't do?

Good luck with that.

Well, actually, free will DOES mean that we get to tell God what to do....
WITH US.

God will not FORCE US to stay with Him IF we do NOT WANT TO.

We are free to come to God...
We are free to abandon God...

Irresistible Grace means we are NOT FREE to resist the grace of God.
The NT teaches that we are free to do so.

Well, going by your response, you didn't get what I was saying.

Guess you weren't clear enough.

Has nothing to do with irresistible grace, everything to do with what the verse stated. You were bought with a price, you belong to God, and you are indwelt and sealed to the day of redemption. If you disagree, bring your receipts to show what I said is wrong. Show me from scripture how God needs your permission to do what He does.

You're repeating exactly what irresistible grace is.
Are you sure you're not a reformed/calvinist believer?

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

One's resistance does not dictate to the Lord what He will do. He remains faithful even when we are unfaithful.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

The first 2 verses have nothing to do with our free will to leave God.
Of course we were bought at a price.
So?

And we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit.
Which would include DISOBEYING Him....
And I've been stating that we must obey God.

So IF you agree with me..
why are you giving me pushback on this thread??

As to 2 Timothy...
You don't seem to know what God being faithful to Himself means.
If you think it means what you THINK it means,,,
you're creating a conflict between verse 12 and verse 13.

You could figure it out on your own since we do not enjoy learning from each other.

Btw. Calvin was not completely wrong. You could learn a thing or two from him.

I happen to know John quite well.

 

[Toknow]

If a mod is reading along....

I'd like to say that this system makes posting SO MUCH EASIER !!

AND

The whole site looks cleaner and more modern.

And I noticed the new emoji's too !

GREAT IMPROVEMENT!!

 

[Roger316]

Sorry, I am late to the party, but consider the following conditions.

If salvation is "transactional": I give God something he wants, i.e., faith, and he gives me salvation on his part, then it is possible to fall away.

if however, salvation is "relational,", God establishes a relation with a follower of Christ such that God has dedicated Himself to their salvation, then our salvation depends on God's faithfulness, which will never change.

I think the Bible teaches us that salvation is relational. He is the one who completes good work in us.

 

[Musicmaster]

Well, you are rather insulting MM.

THAT is why I dislike speaking to you.

However, you DID state that you were going to print a list of verses showing we cannot lose our salvation.

I suppose you couldn't find any since you are now regegging on your statement.

That's fine.

Just don't blame me for your inability to prove your incorrect OPINION.

Playing the victim card again isn't going to effectively turn the table. You stated that my presentations of clear language in scripture are "dull" to you, so what's the point in going any further? Jesus Himself spoke of everlasting salvation, but it's all dull to you, so I see no point in dulling you any further.

When a knife gets so dull that it won't cut melted butter, you throw it away or you sharpen it. You have no real desire for sharpening, which leaves only one other alternative...

No thanks. I dont have interest in playing your little childish games any more. Your reputation among quite a number of others on here speaks for itself.

MM

 

[Toknow]

Sorry, I am late to the party, but consider the following conditions.

If salvation is "transactional": I give God something he wants, i.e., faith, and he gives me salvation on his part, then it is possible to fall away.

if however, salvation is "relational,", God establishes a relation with a follower of Christ such that God has dedicated Himself to their salvation, then our salvation depends on God's faithfulness, which will never change.

I think the Bible teaches us that salvation is relational. He is the one who completes good work in us.

Welcome Roger
I'm feeling a little lonely here.
Seems that some believe the church has come to believe something that it has never believed in through the span of
2 thousand years.

I'm wondering why.

Is it realational?

God offers a gift to me.
I accept it.

Does what I do with that gift have any bearing on my salvation?
Do I keep it?
Can I throw it out?

Have we all become reformed in theology?
Does God force me to remain in Him?
Do I have the option to move on and leave Him behind?

What do you make of the times Jesus warns us that we are to abide in Him?

What if we stop abiding in Him?
If it's not possible,,,
why does He warn us of it?

I'd like to stop with the scripture for a moment
and just try to understand how those reading the NT could
have such differing views.

Later.

 

[Toknow]

Playing the victim card again isn't going to effectively turn the table. You stated that my presentations of clear language in scripture are "dull" to you, so what's the point in going any further? Jesus Himself spoke of everlasting salvation, but it's all dull to you, so I see no point in dulling you any further.

When a knife gets so dull that it won't cut melted butter, you throw it away or you sharpen it. You have no real desire for sharpening, which leaves only one other alternative...

No thanks. I dont have interest in playing your little childish games any more. Your reputation among quite a number of others on here speaks for itself.

MM

No sir.
Scripture is not DULL.

YOUR POSTS are dull.

And I'm happy to know I have a reputation.
God will be pleased with the reputation I have.

All I've said is that we must obey Him.

Sounds like a good reputation to me.

 

[Musicmaster]

Denying Him does not have to mean we deny believing in Christ to be saved.

He is the Word.
It is denying His Word for a given situation because in puts someone in an uncomfortable place in their mind to do it.

Denying Him can mean a stubbornly refusing correction from the Word when shown and placed in it's correct context.

Denying Him could mean one knows what the Word tells us, but too scared to be as the Word tells us to be.

etc....

Well said, my friend. Persecutionis leading to suffering in that sithation is one such motivator for some to deny Christ to save their lives. That is what our victim card player in here missed entirely, with him trying to shove salvation into the meaning of a sentence that clearly raised up suffering and reigning with Christ as its meaning and topical aim. Those who deny Him in suffering, they are not worthy to reign with Him in the Heavenlies.

As I pointed out in my post, salvation is not at all in view of that sentence, but the silly antics in the ranks of the salvational loss gang betrays some sort of sick glee with the game of injecting alternative meaning into the texts to try and win the day...at any cost, even to their own integrity.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

No sir.
Scripture is not DULL.

YOUR POSTS are dull.

And I'm happy to know I have a reputation.
God will be pleased with the reputation I have.

All I've said is that we must obey Him.

Sounds like a good reputation to me.

As the old saying goes, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back for textual injections to change the meanings.

Your pride is indeed naked before all.

MM

 

[studier]

Our perception of love can't help but influence our reading. But, to me, that reading comes to close to "if you love me, then you will earn it," which doesn't sit quite right to me. There's always the possibility that my perception of love could be distorted, of course. Nonetheless, if it is meant to be read in the future tense then my equation would include your view as well as mine, as it would figure for c as much as it figures for a or b, where c is keeping His commandments, a is love and b is Him.
\[ c\^2 = a\^2 + b\^2 \]

Keeping with the formula of the Pythagorean theorem, I think the equation would remain true if the idea were formulated as an obedience to love being equated with guarding Him.

I didn't look at the video @Toknow offered about analogies. I only went as far as to follow the discussing about them being hard to understand, which is understandable, considering it's using language, which is inherently spiritual in nature, to explain language, which is inherently spiritual in nature, and all. I'm sure it just ends up looking like a bunch of scribbles. :/

I agree, perception is an issue. I just don't share the concerns or the fears of this earning issue and think it's overblown. I'm going to sequence this myself:

NKJ 1John4:19: "We love Him because He first loved us."

• God initiates love.
• We're responding to Him
• We're not moving first to earn His love.

NKJ 1John5:2-3: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

• God defines love for us so we don't have to guess or make up what He means.
• This love = keeping - guarding and obeying - what God commands.
  • We don't look at tereō closely enough. It has a range of keep/guard/heed/obey
• His commands are not burdensome/troublesome/heavy/a source of difficulty to us - they are quite the opposite.
  • Don't turn this obedience into some burden - this Scripture says it is exactly the opposite of that.
• This love is not a "feeling" - it is a defined action
• Love for God and obeying God are inseparable no matter how we feel.
  • Feeling will be a part of love - but it is not the determining factor for what is love - obedience to God and thereby guarding His commandments is the defined determining factor.

NKJ John15:8-10 "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

• By keeping God's commandments - Jesus remained in His Father's love
• We remain in Jesus love - if we keep His commandments just as He kept His/our Father's commandments.
  • The conditional "if" clause essentially means maybe we will obey Him and maybe we won't.
• Jesus commands us to remain in His love [by keeping His commandments] -
  • So Jesus is commanding us to keep His commandments
    • So obeying Jesus is something we MUST do assuming we want to remain in His love
• Whether or not we are sensitive to the concept of "earning" - there is a sense here of earning the honor of remaining in His love and disqualifying ourselves for disobedience which is also unbelief
• Discipleship following Jesus is so we produce much fruit and thereby glorify God the Father
  • As Jesus' disciples - we obey His commandments, remain in His love, produce much fruit, glorify God the Father.
    • Honestly, I wouldn't be breaking this well-defined chain of instruction - nor would I be overly concerned with some misplaced legalistic misconception of earning. There is responsive and cooperative relationship here of Lord and obedient followers.

NKJ John14:22-23 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

• God the Father made it clear to His Son that those who do not love Jesus will not keep His words
  • Based upon all the above instruction that is actually clarifying this - love = obedience and not loving = disobeying
• Jesus and our Father will come and make their home with the one who keeps Jesus' word = loves Jesus.
  • Again, the conditional "if" clause essentially means maybe we will love Him and maybe we won't.
• Jesus will reveal Himself to those who love Jesus = keep Jesus word

NKJ John14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

• Honestly, based upon all the above, it doesn't matter to me if this is an aorist imperative, a future indicative, or a subjunctive.
  • Love for God the Father = obeying God/guarding His commandments just as Jesus did
  • Love for Jesus Christ = obeying the LORD Jesus Christ/guarding His commandments/His words just as Jesus kept our Father's commandments
  • If we want to remain in Jesus Christ's love - then we must keep His commandments - just as Jesus Christ kept the Father's commandments to remain in His Father's love.
  • God the Father made it clear to His Son that those who do not love Jesus will not keep His words
  • Based upon all the above instruction that is actually clarifying this - love = obedience and not loving = disobeying
• And once again, the conditional "if" clause essentially means maybe we will love Him and maybe we won't - maybe we will obey Him and maybe we wont.
• Future tense:
  • love > obey, or
  • love / obey because love is obedience
  • If you truly love me then you will obey me because love = obedience
    • This can be defining just as easily as it can be sequencing - based upon the above my sense is that is defining rather than sequencing
• Imperative mood
  • Clearly makes sense
  • If you love me - maybe you do and maybe you don't - then obey Me
    • Effectively Jesus said the same thing in John15:9
  • Love = obedience
    • So:
      • if you're obeying - then you're loving
      • if you're loving - then you're obeying
    • NKJ Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
      • Your disobeying Him and calling Him, Lord are hypocrisy and not truth
      • Why do disobey Him and say you love Him?
        • More hypocrisy (play-acting) and not truth, no matter how you feel.
• Subjunctive mood
  • Not well-attested in manuscripts. Very unlikely.

Love for God = obeying God

Remaining in God's love is conditional on loving God = obeying God

Jesus Christ showed us this and taught us this.

God started the process by loving us first.

We respond in faith-obedience-love and are to remain in faith-obedience-love doing good works - part of which IMO is remaining in faith-obedience-love.

Yes, we MUST obey and yes, we MUST love. If we put all of this together we start our relationship responding to God's love and God's grace by believing, which is obeying, which is loving. This is how He has it structured and it is His structure and His Grace Salvation Plan provided in His initiating Love. He starts us out marching on the correct foot even though we may not realize it at first.