Loss of salvation???

[mailmandan]

You were asking about Hebrews 3:12?

Hebrews 3:9-19 KJV
9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

They were being called to enter God's rest, but they chose not to from unbelief, instead departing from God, because of their evil heart of unbelief.

An evil heart of unbelief does not describe a regenerate child of God...

Amen! Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV
1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This passage is about not refusing salvation, entering into His rest, not about the born again being lost again.

Much love!

Amen! It's not hard to find make believers mixed in with genuine believers.

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers.

*Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

 

[Toknow]

FOR good works is correct. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Required to obey God is our reasonable service.

OK
Now let's see how long this joy lasts.
I hope forever.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Won't go back to check...but it was ouch that asked a question, which was this:

My words:
If faith alone is all that is necessary, does this mean I could cheat on my spouse, get drunk...and some other sinful type action.

The meaning of SOLA FIDE has changed, as I believe I've stated.

It used to mean that we are saved, justified, by faith alone...which is 100% correct.
This is what Luther believed and why he tried to reform the CC.

Some now use this phrase to mean that AFTER we're saved, we are still required to have no other attitude beyond faith alone.

IOW,,, a person needs to do nothing....no works/good deeds required...
no cooperation with God required...
God does it all,,,we need do nothing in order to further the Kingdom of God here on earth.

Some will go so far as to say that our works are like dirty rags.
Some will go so far as to say that we SIN by trying to "help God" in our salvation.

So it comes down to this:
Does God do it all....

or are we supposed to be obeying Jesus and follow His commands?


PS
I think you missed my post no. 7291

If others change the meaning of a word that doesn’t mean it changes for everyone. It just means they are wrong in their definition. We have people nowadays that use their own definition of gender. They are also wrong. I know what faith alone meant originally and that is what it still means to me same with man and woman.

As for works, I don’t worry about them. In a healthy relationship the desire to please one another comes naturally. I don’t take my wife out for dinner because I don’t want her to get mad at me. I take her out to dinner because I love her and I know she enjoys it. I don’t randomly stop on the road to change a stranger’s tire because I don’t want God mad at me. I do it because I love the stranger and I know it pleases God. I don’t avoid sin so I don’t lose my salvation. I avoid sin because I would rather please God than Him be hurt.

If one has a real relationship with God, works will come. That relationship changes our desire. We desire to please those we love.

There can be works in an unhealthy relationship. If I took my wife out to eat so she didn’t leave me. If I changed the stranger’s tire so I don’t want to make Him mad. If I avoided sin to not lose my salvation. They are the exact same works as the first set, but the intention is self-preservation, based on fear. This is an unhealthy relationship.

I follow God for the love and relationship. I desire God, not reward or heaven. Heaven is only heaven because He is there. God calls us to participate in the relationship and to follow His guidance and live out His commands. But that cooperation comes from love, not fear or trying to earn anything. True obedience flows naturally from a heart that loves Him. In the end it is not what we do, but rather what we desire to do. That desire is love.

 

[Toknow]

Amen! Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing but DID NOT BELIEVE.

But UNBELIEVING could happen at any time.

But let me bask in the joy for now.....

'night

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[studier]

Who says it does? As far as I see with those who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security, it is God's promise and His fidelity that keeps us saved. Our fidelity results in an abundant life or less abundance accordingly and if we do a really bad job of our Christian walk loss of rewards in the temporal and eternal states.

It sounds to me like some here do. If not you, I think you've just clarified this. Hopefully you see that Faith-Alone is understood and used differently by different Christians. And hopefully you won't try to tell me I'm wrong because I was close to the debate taking place at the scholarly levels and involved in a split.

You mention abundance or "less abundance" and loss of rewards. No mention of no abundance - everybody get's a prize? I understand the loss of rewards theory taking the place of loss of life. I'm unconvinced.

If we have to rely upon our own faithfulness for salvation then we will forever be "navel gazing" seeking correction in our own strength rather than looking to the One who is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb.12:2

This is the false dichotomy I see continually posted - it's either Christ or us. It's both with Him in us providing what we cannot provide and us willingly, responsively and cooperatively working in continuing faith-obedience to Him as our Father raises and trains us to maturity and beyond.

This is why salvation (which includes sanctification) is by grace through faith and not of ourselves.

Agreed - salvation is a process (which I just described above including our cooperative faith-obedience) through faith (which I also just described above) and we are not the source of this salvation by grace through faith - God is.

 

[Toknow]

If others change the meaning of a word that doesn’t mean it changes for everyone. It just means they are wrong in their definition. We have people nowadays that use their own definition of gender. They are also wrong. I know what faith alone meant originally and that is what it still means to me same with man and woman.

As for works, I don’t worry about them. In a healthy relationship the desire to please one another comes naturally. I don’t take my wife out for dinner because I don’t want her to get mad at me. I take her out to dinner because I love her and I know she enjoys it. I don’t randomly stop on the road to change a stranger’s tire because I don’t want God mad at me. I do it because I love the stranger and I know it pleases God. I don’t avoid sin so I don’t lose my salvation. I avoid sin because I would rather please God than Him be hurt.

If one has a real relationship with God, works will come. That relationship changes our desire. We desire to please those we love.

There can be works in an unhealthy relationship. If I took my wife out to eat so she didn’t leave me. If I changed the stranger’s tire so I don’t want to make Him mad. If I avoided sin to not lose my salvation. They are the exact same works as the first set, but the intention is self-preservation, based on fear. This is an unhealthy relationship.

I follow God for the love and relationship. I desire God, not reward or heaven. Heaven is only heaven because He is there. God calls us to participate in the relationship and to follow His guidance and live out His commands. But that cooperation comes from love, not fear or trying to earn anything. True obedience flows naturally from a heart that loves Him. In the end it is not what we do, but rather what we desire to do. That desire is love.

I agree.
But many on these forums do say that all we need is faith AFTER we're saved.
(no good deeds necessary).

I just think we have to always clarify what we say because of the very fact that if the definition of a word is not accepted by both parties, the discussion will not have the proper meaning/outcome.

'night

 

[studier]

So, are we saved FOR good works or BY good works? (Ephesians 2:10)

We're created in Christ Jesus for good works Eph3:10.

Believing in Christ = obeying Christ John3:36

Believing the Gospel = obeying the Gospel Rom10:16

Believing in the One whom God sent = the work God requires of unbelievers. John6:29

Being declared righteous by God is not from works of law or work that indebts God to men Rom3-4.

 

[markss]

Interesting markss.

You don't have time to reply to my verses,,,,

but instead post some of your own.

I don't really like playing verse ping pong.

Just quick:

WHY were the Israelites NOT let into the promised land?
Why was Moses not let in?


IF you like to harmonize scripture...
WHY won't you harmonize Hebrews?

Why is it a challenge?

I've explained MANY of your verses.

It's not a challenge because yours CAN be explained away.

The verses I post to YOU, cannot...I understand this.

And again,,,,,
I REALLY would not use the book of Hebrews to support your belief that salvation cannot be lost.

You should read my verses from Hebrews again...
they are very clear.

We read the Bible in different ways, and I don't think we will reach agreement on this. I'm rather certain of my view, I've studied these things in great depth over many years. You seem equally certain, I don't see the need to keep circling around on this.

Much love!

 

[markss]

But I know replying can be tought when confrnted with scripture that does NOT harmonize with your incorrect beliefs.

And all of your loaded language does not help to keep my interest. I'm not into this kind of presumption towards others. It's like you are more interested in scoring points than having a conversation.

We can all say stuff like this . . . "I know it's hard to not get personal when that's all you've got", nonsense like that. I'm not into that kind of discussion. I know some people just talk this way, I'm not into it.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

And all of your loaded language does not help to keep my interest. I'm not into this kind of presumption towards others. It's like you are more interested in scoring points than having a conversation.

We can all say stuff like this . . . "I know it's hard to not get personal when that's all you've got", nonsense like that. I'm not into that kind of discussion. I know some people just talk this way, I'm not into it.

Much love!

No personal comment from me.

YOU posted something from the KJV as if it supported your view.
I responded with a whole page of different versions that do not use the word in the KJV.

You did not reply to that.

It was Matthew 13:21 and the last words FALL AWAY.

YOU were saying that fall away does not exist in the NT and posted the KJV which uses different wording.
EVERY OTHER version uses the words FALL AWAY.

YOU are the one that is insisting that you harmonize scripture.

You don't have to reply to me if it seems to you that a normal conversation is too accusatory...

however, I will be commenting on your posts since they do not contain correct information.

Information which you are not willing to support.

 

[markss]

If others change the meaning of a word that doesn’t mean it changes for everyone. It just means they are wrong in their definition. We have people nowadays that use their own definition of gender. They are also wrong. I know what faith alone meant originally and that is what it still means to me same with man and woman.

As for works, I don’t worry about them. In a healthy relationship the desire to please one another comes naturally. I don’t take my wife out for dinner because I don’t want her to get mad at me. I take her out to dinner because I love her and I know she enjoys it. I don’t randomly stop on the road to change a stranger’s tire because I don’t want God mad at me. I do it because I love the stranger and I know it pleases God. I don’t avoid sin so I don’t lose my salvation. I avoid sin because I would rather please God than Him be hurt.

If one has a real relationship with God, works will come. That relationship changes our desire. We desire to please those we love.

There can be works in an unhealthy relationship. If I took my wife out to eat so she didn’t leave me. If I changed the stranger’s tire so I don’t want to make Him mad. If I avoided sin to not lose my salvation. They are the exact same works as the first set, but the intention is self-preservation, based on fear. This is an unhealthy relationship.

I follow God for the love and relationship. I desire God, not reward or heaven. Heaven is only heaven because He is there. God calls us to participate in the relationship and to follow His guidance and live out His commands. But that cooperation comes from love, not fear or trying to earn anything. True obedience flows naturally from a heart that loves Him. In the end it is not what we do, but rather what we desire to do. That desire is love.

Very well said!

Much love!

 

[Kroogz]

With no definition of works, works cannot be understood.

True, we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, so those good works come after being created in Christ Jesus.

False, this does not make FACA true.

False, "apart from being saved and in the Spirit, there is no obedience." There is obedience coupled with faith when we first believe - believing is obedience.

Maybe True maybe False - "There are no works" - It depends on what you classify as works. Jesus told unbelievers believing in Him was work God requires. Paul clarifies this is not works of law, nor work that indebts God to us. I think Paul accepts Jesus teaching about the work God requires that is not of law and does not indebt Him.

You're sounding in some places like those I know you adamantly disagree with. They favor a flower. No offense intended.

Back to discipline then.

Faith alone in Christ alone. He will HARSHLY discipline believers who do not live the abundant life.......to the point of PHYSICAL death.

Why is this not enough discipline for you? Why does it have to be the Lake of Fire? (I know why.)

You and the loss of salvation crowd take Gods discipline as if it's just Him taking a toy away from us........So YOU have to put us in the LoF.

Freewill is more, WAY more ,than the calvies or the Armins give it.

Our FREEWILL is resolving the angelic conflict.

 

[sawdust]

You mention abundance or "less abundance" and loss of rewards. No mention of no abundance - everybody get's a prize? I understand the loss of rewards theory taking the place of loss of life. I'm unconvinced.

If you consider being made spiritually alive so we can relate to the Lord God a prize, then I guess everyone who believes gets a "prize". I consider it being normalised and being made whole. Of course that is the starting position and maturing in Christ is the end goal of that normalization for then we are truly human exactly as God intended. I believe we will all end in that spot but to what degree we receive the blessings of God in this life and the one to come? Not all angels are equal in their roles, we all had different roles in this life, I see no reason why it should be any different in the next. The overcomers will get to mingle in the King's garden Rev.2:7 There is more to His palace than just His personal garden just as there was more to the world than the Garden of Eden. Not all will overcome every test they face in this life and they will miss out on a degree of contentment that surpasses all understanding and they will not be given greater power in the life to come for they failed to handle the word of God responsibly in the here and now.

This is the false dichotomy I see continually posted - it's either Christ or us. It's both with Him in us providing what we cannot provide and us willingly, responsively and cooperatively working in continuing faith-obedience to Him as our Father raises and trains us to maturity and beyond.

I don't see it as a false dichotomy. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" Gal.2:20 Is it you or is it Christ that is working here?

As far as I am concerned, if you are found to have faith, you have obeyed by believing the word. This is why I consider faith AND obedience an oxymoron. How much faith does one need for the Gospel to be in effect, for that is the salvation of God. Rom.1:16 If they don't have the faith to not be anxious if they lose their job, does this disqualify them from being saved? Faith is not static.

The other thing I would say is we are not producing the faith from within ourselves. You can only have as much faith as you have truth and Jesus is the Truth so it is Him or it is nothing. His life and His work transfers to becoming ours as we believe and rest in Him but our believing is not something special. All men live by believing something, believing the word is more a redirection of belief (repentance) than it is something new to men. Faith on the other hand is a gift because it cannot exist apart from Christ. This is why the question all men must answer is "who do you say I am?" Matt.16:15 That is the difference between life and death, believing the truth.

Agreed - salvation is a process (which I just described above including our cooperative faith-obedience) through faith (which I also just described above) and we are not the source of this salvation by grace through faith - God is.

I think we have touched on this before, in another thread maybe? I see belief and faith as two different things and maybe this is why we are disagreeing slightly. Yes it requires our believing the word but we are saved, not because we believe, but because the Lord God has determined He will save believers. In this way our positive co-operation is not the driving force (power) behind salvation. Grace and the power of the word produces faith, hence one is saved. For this reason I believe I am wholly secure in Christ even if I only have faith the size of a mustard seed because the Lord is looking for the faith He generated, not how good a believer I am.

As for those who think, those of us who preach because we are secure, we can sin willy nilly, I would say our God is a consuming fire. If you truly belong to Christ you will come under such discipline as to be stripped of your sinful ways or you were never His in the first place. God does not go around saving people, making them alive in Christ, only to be mistaken and having to undo His work.

 

[Kroogz]

Amen! It's not hard to find make believers mixed in with genuine believers.

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers.

*Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Moses didn't enter the promised land/rest.

Salvation is eternal life. Moses had eternal life.

 

[Kroogz]

Who says it does? As far as I see with those who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security, it is God's promise and His fidelity that keeps us saved. Our fidelity results in an abundant life or less abundance accordingly and if we do a really bad job of our Christian walk loss of rewards in the temporal and eternal states.

If we have to rely upon our own faithfulness for salvation then we will forever be "navel gazing" seeking correction in our own strength rather than looking to the One who is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb.12:2

This is why salvation (which includes sanctification) is by grace through faith and not of ourselves.

BINGO.

Being SON focused and doctrine focused, there is no other conclusion.

Being sin focused and man focused.....The naval gazing never ends.

 

[Genez]

I believe people debate their salvation so much because they do not know what to do with their salvation.

 

[Genez]

BINGO.

Being SON focused and doctrine focused, there is no other conclusion.

Being sin focused and man focused.....The naval gazing never ends.

Getting doctrine is the solution. When you find yourself having doctrinal teachings made available. it becomes the pass key from God to seek His approval.

 

[Kroogz]

Kroogz

The above post is so incredibly .............pick a word...but not a flattering one.

HOW MANY TIMES must it be repeated that an UNBELIEVER IS NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
AN UNBELIEVER IS NOT REQUIRED TO DO ANY GOOD WORKS.

Answer this:

AFTER SALVATION
Are we required to do obey God?
Are we required to do good works/deeds?

You, my friend, don't even know what Good works are.

Yes, we are COMMANDED to obey God............Through the Spirit. Which comes from salvation.

Yes we are COMMANDED to do good works.....Through the Spirit. Which comes from salvation.

If we don't? Loss of rewards. Discipline. Loss of reign. SHAME. Loss of temporal blessings and ETERNAL blessings.

SHAME to the loss of salvation crowd. They crucify Christ over and over and over.

With an honest reading of the bible, I would rather do NOTHING as a believer compared to a believer who says loss of salvation is possible.

 

[Kroogz]

I believe people debate their salvation so much because they do not know what to do with their salvation.

In all honesty, the loss of salvation crowds salvation is never in question.......It's yours and mine.

That's why they always go to the EXTREME sins. They know they sin, but they can excuse/justify themselves with the "really" bad sinners.