I was shocked to hear a Calvinist claim he has moments when he doubts whether he is saved the other day.
It seems there are Calvinists and there are Calvinists.
Loss of salvation???
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I was shocked to hear a Calvinist claim he has moments when he doubts whether he is saved the other day.
It seems there are Calvinists and there are Calvinists.
I was shocked to hear a Calvinist claim he has moments when he doubts whether he is saved the other day.
It seems there are Calvinists and there are Calvinists.
It takes the Holy Spirit to make one know he is saved.
Carnal Christians are plagued with doubt about salvation.
Its as if they were saved from drowning by a life guard that had to resort to knocking them out to saved them.
Idk what it is that keeps frustrating what seems to be my agreement with your understanding. I notice myself following the details you flesh out and then, somewhere along the way... I think you keep going at the point where I find myself saying, "that's it!"
You've voiced the ambition to define works, and works of faith to be specific, if I've understood you correctly. Although I'm not equipped to define it in the terms that you might've hoped for, I can offer, haaaa! at the chagrin of a one that hates them (I don't recall, specifically, who) an analogy.
A work of faith is like a lifejacket. Initially, one does the work of believing by putting it on. And then, subsequently, one 'checks' it before jumping into the deeper ends of the pool. Once checked for the assurance that the lifejacket is yet secure, and the more one checks, the more confident one becomes in taking the dive.
This covers all the 'gisms' doesn't it? The lifejacket keeps one buoyant and so is really doing most of the work, but one must 'keep it on' in order to continue to keep afloat.
The only thing I'd add to make this a more accurate analogy is the specification that the lifejacket always clears all 'checks.'
That seems to be a touch of the same bug that Pharisee had...
The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like
other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. Luke 18:11
I was shocked to hear a Calvinist claim he has moments when he doubts whether he is saved the other day.
It seems there are Calvinists and there are Calvinists.
And this is why "works" will never have a definite definition by them. A carnal Christian can be a very moral or immoral person.
Works is the key for them. So they all have a subjective definition of works to fit their personal mold.......salvation is always in question for those who don't fit the mold they have made.
Great point. Won't be seen by most though.I was shocked to hear a Calvinist claim he has moments when he doubts whether he is saved the other day.
It seems there are Calvinists and there are Calvinists.
Even though Moses was not allowed into the promised land, he was allowed to view the promised land from Mount Nebo before he died in the land of Moab. We know that Moses had eternal life because he appeared alongside of Elijah during the transfiguration of Jesus. They appeared in glory, speaking with Jesus about his upcoming departure in Jerusalem.
If believers only knew what we were gifted at the moment of salvation? None of us would fail.
But that darn freewill and angelic conflict.......We have to run the race.
But whether we face plant at the starting line or finish the race........We have eternal life.
Rom 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Discipline is a good argument, not without potential holes, but deserving of attention. It's not by itself enough to bring me back to the camp.
FWIW, I'm in no crowd, except for the large one made of many camps that don't agree with Free Grace Dispensationalism. So, I land in no systematic theology I know of in particular and remain open to good arguments from any. The only camp I consider myself in is the one that willingly believes that Jesus is YHWH's resurrected Christ/King who has all authority in Heaven and on earth and coupled with that willing belief is willing obedience, submission, reverence, bowing in obeisance, loyalty, love, doing righteousness, and whatever He makes me aware of as good works we were created for in Him in Spirit, etc...
If that's a problem for you, please just move on. If you'd like to get deep into some Scripture, let's do so. You have to know by now that I understand your overviews. I also don't think you can do the work in Scripture to support your views and that you'd have to turn me over to your teachers.
Moses failed BIG TIME in his required works and obedience.........And he still had eternal life.
Moses even had signs and wonders and personal dealings with the Lord.......And failed.
And here we are today judging salvation of others by their works or lack there of......and we all go by strictly faith.
You have made up your mind. If the great teachers couldn't teach you the truth, none can.
https://gbible.org/e-books/doctrine-eternal-security/
You know as well as I do, no amount of scripture will support my view>>>>>>>>>According to you.
Never perish.No condemnation. Eternal life. A forever advocate. Sealed as the Son is. Imperishable seed......plus much more kicks your theory into oblivion.
Good response. I no longer see falling back into unbelief as impossible and loss for doing so as rewards. Nor do I see perseverance of the saints as a given per that system. Nor do I have a problem with inequalities of some sort in eternity based upon language like 30, 60, 100-fold production here.
I know you don't but even that verse shows the 3rd option I spoke of. I'd appreciate your using the entire verse and maybe even some context when necessary.
NET Galatians 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
- There is both Christ living and Paul living - there is a unity here that expresses the cooperation I mentioned
- As a side note, this translation is dealing with the Greek that actually says 'the faith [of] the Son [of] God' and the discussions about this are wrestling with what this means. So rather than 'faith in' they chose 'faithfulness of' - I live because of His faithfulness. There are other ways to take this, but the point is that He lives in me so I live. This is not Christ alone doing the living.
Good dodge. It's only Scripture that supports any view and we both know you're unable to deal with it. If you could, maybe you'd be more convincing. You're not alone.
After years of studying under RBT, I had a discussion with another long-term student of his that I was in seminary with. The seminary leadership were all very familiar with RBT also - one had lived with him at his house for awhile - and there was a lot of underlying disapproval of him at the seminary. It was an interesting spot for RBT students like us. Enough so that I had to have a few discussions with the Seminary President about it to handle it appropriately.
I don't recall what started the discussion or it's full content, but the fellow student told me something that kind of floored me. He knew many more RBT students than I did and told me in response to something I said, 'you do know that most RBT students don't really know their Bibles, don't you?' No, I didn't. The main things RBT impressed upon me were to learn the Text and to learn to study it in the languages and study it myself at some point. I just thought that was the norm.
There are a lot of RBT believers that love his mainstay word, 'doctrine' 'but really don't know the Text. It's kind of surreal watching it being thrown around as some badge of accomplishment over others. Surprising I don't hear 'rebound' or winner believers, or other such phrases held over others heads, but the attitudes are certainly there. Angelic Conflict sure seems to be entering in recently.
I'm afraid I still don't see a third option in there. As the verse states .. I live because of Christ's faithfulness. This is essentially my argument in that it is Christ's life in us that takes a hold as we rest in the faith we have. Salvation is the inheritance of Christ because of His perfect faithful life before God. We inherit that life through our faithful co-operation (ie. believe the word) but we do not generate that life. This is why I see faith as a gift.
I certainly don't disagree with you in that there is a co-operation happening but I see us bringing nothing to the table other than what it means to be a human being ie. we all live by believing something which, is God's design anyway. We speak of believers and unbelievers but the real difference between the saved and unsaved is not that one is believing and the other is not believing but rather it is the object of their belief that distinguishes between the two. For the saved, that object is the person of Christ and His work (ie.truth). To the unsaved it could be a myriad of things. Even for the saved, their life can only be as righteous (in practice) as the truth they have hence, as we both agree, salvation is a process as much as it occurs in an instant.
No problem, can definitely relate.
Always appreciate discussing with you, take as much time as you need.
I do so believe you've just rescinded on what you posted to meChrist's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed.
which caused me to give you one of these:
You are one confused dude Dan.
Look and pay need to what you just posted above to PennEd in post no. 7286:
"Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed."
After reading the above, could you confirm that you meant what you wrote?
You stated that BELIEVERS NEED ONLY Christ's finished work of redemption to save them.
BELIEVERS....
Which means that they are ALREADY SAVED
you are NOT referring to salvation/justification
but to sanctification.
When I gave you the joyful emoji,,,it was my understnding that you were stating that you
were referring to NON-BELIEVERS and HOW to become saved.
BY FAITH ONLY.
The above is stating that BELIEVERS ONLY NEED Christ's work of redemption to save THEM....BELIEVERS.
So you ARE addressing SANCTIFICATION.
Sanctificaiton is NOT bey FAITH ONLY, but by obeying God.
You do like to create confusion.
One moment you say works are not necessary to REMAIN SAVED.
The next moment you agree that works are good to REMAIN SAVED.
Then you regress and state that works are not necessary TO REMAIN SAVED.
What confusion!
Let me be absolutely clear on what the NT teaches:
AFTER we become saved
WE MUST OBEY GOD.
WE MUST OBEY EVERY COMMAND OF JESUS.
or
WE WILL MOST DEFINITELY BECOME AS LOST AS WE WERE BEFORE SALVATION.
WHY?
BECAUSE GO DEMANDS OBEDIENCE...
Those who do not believe what the NT clearly teaches...
are certainly confused.
Stupid and ignorant comment that proves you do not know what it means to be born again. Those who are born again have a new nature that hates sin. It does not mean that they no longer sin, but it does not mean that they live as they please. I've yet to come across a real believer that loves sin. I've been saved 53 years.
I've been reading through this thread....something I don't normally do.
I've read all the comments you and others have made here.
You criticize those that are posting exactly what the NT teaches...
calling them unsaved, carnal, and other names.
This is most interesting since it's the OSAS crowd that teaches, on these boards, in veiled language,
that Christ has done it all and all we need do is BELIEVE (certainly not what the writers meant by BELEIVE) and all will be OK.
I haven't read any post where the OSAS are being condemned to hell fire.
This is because those that understand the NT also understand that it's not up to them to judge anyone.
Which YOU instead do.
Again,,,this is due to your incorrect theology whereby you believe to know how God will judge.
New Christians are reading along that never post.
They will NOT hear only the incorrect teachings of the OSAS crowd that states, opnely, that not even obedience to God is necessary.
JESUS stated that if we do not ACT ON HIS WORDS/HIS TEACHINGS.....
there will be consquences that sound rather unpleasant.
I proffer that we obey what JESUS taught and not what anyone might THINK the NT teaches because of verses that are not understood by them.
And when scripture is posted to show that salvation can indeed be lost...
we get paragraphs of explanations as to why it really does not mean what it plainly states it means.
This is known as eisegesis and is not how the bible is to be read.
Here is what JESUS said.
Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
I would suggest that we begin to HEAR what Jesus taught....
and not what those such as Charles Stanley teach.
Easy believism
Cheap grace
Analogies don't work well Just.
And I did ask you something regarding your analogies with your wife that you never replied to.
It's good that you treat her well,,,but she's not God.
So, I had posted that you might LIKE to be nice to her...
but you also MUST be nice to her.
I mentioned about being faithful.....
You MUST be faithful, whether you want to or not,
or there will be consequences...including, in most cases, divorce.
We MUST obey God...
It's NOT A CHOICE for believers.
Why do you keep posting as if it is?
Now go ahead and explain how much you love your wife
and how you'd never be unfaithful
etc etc
or you could stick to scripture...
like serious conversations should.
A whole post and no scripture!
1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
Luke 11:28
28But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Not such a stupid argument Gideon....
I get asked all the time how many sins one must commit in order to lose their salvation.
Now that is a pretty dumb question.
@Ouch is right to ask his question since there are those here that state that obedience is not REALLY necessary...everything is covered by the blood.
What does that sound like to YOU?
Does it sound like what Jesus taught?
Or does Jesus demand fruit from us?
John 15:2
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,
God cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit.
Maybe we'd be better off to state that, yes, God does require something from us.