Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

John speaks of those who appeared to believe but later showed they did not. My concern is mainly with Paul, who speaks to brothers and uses language like “severed from Christ” and “Christ is of no benefit to you.” I no longer see the warnings as merely rhetorical or loss as only diminished rewards. I’m cautiously open to careful, in-depth contextual and lexical analysis - but not to surface-level proof-texting. In my view, something important is being missed here, and the issue remains an open one.

The question I answered is a bogus challenge. This is not about crossing a moral threshold of being good or not.

Could you provide the verses you are referring to in the part I made bold please.

 

[sawdust]

I don't see who or what you're responding to, but this is interesting.

The gang that's so manically in favor of water baptism allegedly being a requirement for us today, they not only are failing to rightly divide the word of truth, but they're also failing to read the texts for what they say within the confines of the grammatical rules in the English language. A prime example is:

Acts 19:1-6
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What's missed so easily by so many is the fact that verse 5 is still speaking about the Jewish crowd to whom John the Baptist was addressing who then were baptized in the name of Christ Jesus. If we look at the imagery painted for us by the scriptural text words, the cinematic shift away from that crowd of people John the Baptist was addressing didn't happen until verse 6.

In other words, Paul didn't do an additional dunking in water of those disciples to whom he was speaking, but some whacko groups today assume what's utterly false because of their failure to consider the antecedent pronoun that defines which crowd was being spoken about. The rules governing antecedents among so many of those who are products of modern and historic public schooling that has long since gone downhill, these kinds of silly errors continue to this day and beyond.

A shift in verse 5 could only have come about if it read like this:

5 When they heard this from Paul, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

As you can see, that shift did not at all take place until verse 6. Do you see that? This is a valuable lesson to us all to read the text for what it says rather than to inject into it what isn't there, as is the practice of far too many, as you have seen for yourself in here.

Further backing for this proper understanding of the text is evidenced here:

Acts 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Notice there is absolutely no mention for them to have been baptized a second time since it was the first water baptism whereby they received the remission of their sins with them having been under the Kingdom Gospel rather than the Gospel of Grace preached unto the Gentiles.

Therefore Paul did not re-baptize them in water, but rather laid hands on them for the receiving of Holy Spirit, as was the case for those, again, under the Kingdom Gospel.

MM

The problem lies in the fact that those who consider water baptism necessary in salvation see the word "water" and immediately think baptism, yet John 3 is speaking of regeneration, not baptism.

Adam needed to be born anew after his fall yet no water in sight. I do not know the history of water baptism well but to the best of my knowledge, we do not see it as a requirement until John's baptism for Israel.

The poster I was responding to thinks water baptism and regeneration are the same thing or at least one must be baptized in water to be regenerated, at least that is what he seems to be saying.

He simply refuses to see the passage within it's own context where baptism is not mentioned at all.

I agree that there do seem to be those who think being baptized in the name of Jesus means water.

As far as I am concerned to be submerged in the Living water or H2O? I know whihc one I prefer.

 

[sawdust]

Do you really belive what comes out of your mouth?

I believe what is written.

SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR? What scripture.

I gave you the scripture. Jn.3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, Spirit gives birth to spirit. Not difficult to understand.

Sure does take a lot of back and forths when someone just talks in circles.

Then stop talking in circles.

Spirit gives birth to spirit, LOL.

You think scripture is funny? You would do well to take it more seriously.

 

[timemeddler]

Eternal life can be lost!

That lost in totally in the hands of each person and only that person.

Peter explains once you have escaped the defilement of this world by the knowledge of Christ and then return to this evil world


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world
through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than, after they have known [it],
to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the TRUE proverb,
The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

speaking for my own problems, it worth noting there are two conditions, entangled and overcome, not just being entangled. also, how can it be worse? if they weren't saved, then they go to to hell, so the worse situation is still hell?

 

[ChrBrotherist]

Look at verse 6.

Did you notice the word REBORN??

You really think after all the work GOD did for John the baptist and all of the baptizing going on JESUS is saying you have to born naturally and by the spirit to be reborn????

One would think if you wasn't born naturally you would not even be able to read HIS word?

Did you know being born naturally is how we got our sins?

So to you JESUS is saying since you are born in sin all you need is to be born of the spirit.

Why didn't JESUS just say, since HE knows anyone who is reading HIS word is born naturally, why didn't HE just say you need to be born of the spirit to ENTER?

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



(Jesus is using birth as an earthly example to help Nicodemus who didn't understand spiritual things and explaining a vital spiritual event to him)



4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?



(Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus about being born of flesh/water two times instead of noticing the spiritual birth)



5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



(still speaking of birth born of water = amniotic fluid =born of flesh and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)



6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = natural birth Spirit = born of God not water baptism)





7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again......




(color coded it for you)

 

[sevoldoG]

Yes. If not, then much of scripture needs to be explained away, imo

Hebrews 6:3–8 (ESV): 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26–31 (ESV): 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Galatians 4:8–11 (ESV): Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Revelation 2:5–7 (ESV): 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Revelation 2:10–11 (ESV): Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

Revelation 2:15–17 (ESV): 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

Revelation 2:25–29 (ESV): Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Revelation 3:4–6 (ESV): Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Revelation 3:11–13 (ESV): 1 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Revelation 3:15–22 (ESV): 15 “ ‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ ”

It seems clear that there is a real danger is not maintaining faith to the end. The idea of “saving faith” is found nowhere in the Bible. There is faith that endures to the end and faith that fails. Faith that doesn’t endure does not result in salvation.

in hebrews 6:3-9 it is a roll over from around chapter 4 . Those who know are sure that Paul is explaining that they need to move on from the beginning of faith in like repentance, laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Ghost. He is simply saying you can’t fake the rituals. That’s why in 9 he says that he is persuaded that they don’t do that, they are truly enlightened as Paul is speaking of.
I myself am a believer in the idea that salvation, and all of its power comes entirely from God and His will. I can only go with what my testimony tells my heart. I believe that a person who has God reveal his divine truth to them have a clear moment of truth realization and belief that will never fade. There are two kinds of Christians
Ones who believe that they are saved, and one’s who believe and are saved.

 

[Ouch]

why not attack Peter? I gave Peter's answer, your problem is with the Word of God not me

and I never used the term hell as I do not believe the false doctrine of a hell. The God I follow would never punish any one for ever. He will put to death a person that refuses to stop sinning.

One last comment --- I do not WILLINGLY SIN, on purpose sin, knowingly sin --- that will get you cast into the Lake of fire.

I sure do agree with you, his problem is with Peter.

Hell will be torment.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hell is everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:7,
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ouch]

I don't see who or what you're responding to, but this is interesting.

The gang that's so manically in favor of water baptism allegedly being a requirement for us today, they not only are failing to rightly divide the word of truth, but they're also failing to read the texts for what they say within the confines of the grammatical rules in the English language. A prime example is:

Acts 19:1-6
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What's missed so easily by so many is the fact that verse 5 is still speaking about the Jewish crowd to whom John the Baptist was addressing who then were baptized in the name of Christ Jesus. If we look at the imagery painted for us by the scriptural text words, the cinematic shift away from that crowd of people John the Baptist was addressing didn't happen until verse 6.

In other words, Paul didn't do an additional dunking in water of those disciples to whom he was speaking, but some whacko groups today assume what's utterly false because of their failure to consider the antecedent pronoun that defines which crowd was being spoken about. The rules governing antecedents among so many of those who are products of modern and historic public schooling that has long since gone downhill, these kinds of silly errors continue to this day and beyond.

A shift in verse 5 could only have come about if it read like this:

5 When they heard this from Paul, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

As you can see, that shift did not at all take place until verse 6. Do you see that? This is a valuable lesson to us all to read the text for what it says rather than to inject into it what isn't there, as is the practice of far too many, as you have seen for yourself in here.

Further backing for this proper understanding of the text is evidenced here:

Acts 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Notice there is absolutely no mention for them to have been baptized a second time since it was the first water baptism whereby they received the remission of their sins with them having been under the Kingdom Gospel rather than the Gospel of Grace preached unto the Gentiles.

Therefore Paul did not re-baptize them in water, but rather laid hands on them for the receiving of Holy Spirit, as was the case for those, again, under the Kingdom Gospel.

MM

First, I am one of those who favor being reborn v/s not and I'm all ears if your sharing something I don't understand.

I don't understand, what do you mean Paul didn't baptize them again?

John must have baptized them,
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Says Paul did in fact baptize them again,
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Says Paul laid hands on them and JESUS filled them with the Holy Ghost,
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So they were baptized twice weren't' they????


Are you saying in Acts 8, they were not baptized in JESUS name?

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

What do you mean baptized a second time?

Was the Samaritans baptized by John also?

All I see is Philip baptizing them and had to send for Peter and John for them to receive the Holy Ghost?

 

[studier]

Could you provide the verses you are referring to in the part I made bold please.

NAS Galatians5

 

[Ouch]

I believe what is written.

I gave you the scripture. Jn.3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, Spirit gives birth to spirit. Not difficult to understand.

Then stop talking in circles.

You think scripture is funny? You would do well to take it more seriously.

Questions you have not answered,

1. How do we get "regenerated we are dead in our sins"

2. Can you explain how spirit gives birth to spirit???

New questions,
KJV John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1. Who said this, where did it come from? Your personal John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

2. Expline what are they and what is the difference, "Regeneration and baptism are two different things"

3. If you believe what is written why don't you believe being baptized in JESUS name is how we get rid of our sins?

4. Same as old question #2.

I do not take scripture funny at all IT'S HIS WORD.

What I don't take seriously in men with their twisted talking in circles opinion.

If you want to be taken seriously just answers those question so I can make since of what you are saying.

 

[Ouch]

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



(Jesus is using birth as an earthly example to help Nicodemus who didn't understand spiritual things and explaining a vital spiritual event to him)



4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?



(Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus about being born of flesh/water two times instead of noticing the spiritual birth)



5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



(still speaking of birth born of water = amniotic fluid =born of flesh and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)



6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = natural birth Spirit = born of God not water baptism)





7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again......




(color coded it for you)

I guess you didn't notice I was questing the Barber guy.

But tell me how are we to be reborn?

 

[memberofthebride]

So, you don't have answers to my questions? Peter was an apostle to Israel, not the body of Christ to whom Paul preached and served as THE apostle.

Attack Peter? No. Not at all. No need to do that.



Again, very telling indeed.



Understood. What's interesting, however, is that the God described in the Bible isn't One who will do other than what He said will happen as defined by the god you say that you follow. That, however, is a different debate than the topic of this thread.



The lake of fire...the one you claim to not believe in?

MM

I will a dress two comments of yours:

first -The lake of fire...the one you claim to not believe in?
The Lake of Fire IS NOT HELL, it burn to ashes and the person is dead for ever, no torture involved.

Second
So, you don't have answers to my questions? Peter was an apostle to Israel, not the body of Christ to whom Paul preached and served as THE apostle.

What?? so you are stating gentile "Christians" are only to listen to Paul and none of the other 12 OR CHRIST??

Paul states and you must be well aware of this one-- " 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Show me how you can twist this one?

I came On this blog to see, first hand, how the WORD of GOD has been twisted into knots by the 40,000 flavors of confusion--- to achieve 40,000 flavors ---- the WORD must be twisted!!!!!

The human mind is an amazing thing --- the abilities God put in it are all most limitless -- for good and for evil!

 

[Ouch]

So, you don't have answers to my questions? Peter was an apostle to Israel, not the body of Christ to whom Paul preached and served as THE apostle.

Attack Peter? No. Not at all. No need to do that.



Again, very telling indeed.



Understood. What's interesting, however, is that the God described in the Bible isn't One who will do other than what He said will happen as defined by the god you say that you follow. That, however, is a different debate than the topic of this thread.



The lake of fire...the one you claim to not believe in?

MM

Eternity is a long time, we better make sure we are following JESUS and HIS word, going down the straight and narrow path.

Do we jump over the book of Acts because it's a transitional book as so so many claim, ignoring it and go right to Paul’s letters? Or, accept the book of Acts because it is the FOUNDATION and not a transitional book?

The foundation of the book of Acts is believe in JESUS, repent, water baptism in JESUS name and need to receive the Holy Ghost to be reborn. Acts 2:38.

Following the same path that JESUS and HIS disciple took along with Paul before he started his ministry.

OR, is the book of Acts a transitional book and we are saved by grace and or faith ALONE?

Below you will see GOD'S words not anyone's opinion or personal interpretation of HIS word.

Why didn't Paul mention the need to be water baptized or receive the Holy Ghost to be saved?

Many do not understand and the outcome is going to be devastating.

Nowhere after the book of Acts will you see specific instructions on the how to be reborn or saved, NO WHERE why?

ALL OF Paul's letters WERE NOT written to the unsaved, but to the saved or reborn.

After the book of Acts in Paul's letters he was giving instructions about how to live, what to do as Christians to reach the lost, what happens in water baptism, and things about the Holy Ghost. Off the milk and on the MEAT.

Through Paul’s travels he heard different problems in the churches and was addressing the problems in each of his letters.

His letters included both CORRECTION and PRAISE.

If you were there to hear the instructions Paul gave that birthed churches it would be the same message as the rest of JESUS disciples. See Acts 19 it shows what Paul told the people to do.

Paul did NOT have his own gospel. Notice how he introduces himself PAUL AN APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST.

Look who the letters are addressed to,

1 Corinthians,
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

2 Corinthians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Romans,
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians,
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians,
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:


All letters after the book of Thessalonians had nothing to with Paul’s ministry to churches.


Back to Paul

Proof Paul followed JESUS along with the rest of JESUS disciples is seen in what happened in the beginning stages of when he started the church of Ephesus Acts 19. For some reason Paul questioned whether the 12 disciples had the Holy Ghost yet. He found out the men did not know what happened at Pentecost. He told them about JESUS and they got baptized. And after Paul laid hands on them they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19,
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

After Paul baptized those folk, and they received the Holy Ghost he stayed there for 2-3 years building the church of Jews and Gentiles.

If anyone debates Paul preached a different message, it's HIS word your debating not with me.

I bet there will be a lot of people who share Paul's letters trying to prove Paul said we are saved by grace or faith alone using Paul letters and debate HIS word.

BEFORE you do, read from the top with an open heart and look , Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ and each and every letter is to a church, not the unsaved.

We CAN'T debate HIS word, it says what it say and means what it means.

 

[Spiritwalker]

I know this is an old thread..and the OP has not returned in a while I hope you are ok. OP. If your still reading,

If I recall correctly, King David asked to be restored to the joy of his salvation. He was a humble man, and knew he struggled with sin like we all do. When I backslide, which I sometimes do, and sin, I also loose my joy and peace and love thats all. He knows none of us are perfect in the things that we do. its not easy when we run with temptation...I still find pockets of unforgiveness and bitterness and self hatred, and know I need God to soft touch me. Sometimes through others. Sometimes through Scripture, sometimes through nature.

Blessings.

 

[Musicmaster]

The problem lies in the fact that those who consider water baptism necessary in salvation see the word "water" and immediately think baptism, yet John 3 is speaking of regeneration, not baptism.

Adam needed to be born anew after his fall yet no water in sight. I do not know the history of water baptism well but to the best of my knowledge, we do not see it as a requirement until John's baptism for Israel.

The poster I was responding to thinks water baptism and regeneration are the same thing or at least one must be baptized in water to be regenerated, at least that is what he seems to be saying.

He simply refuses to see the passage within it's own context where baptism is not mentioned at all.

I agree that there do seem to be those who think being baptized in the name of Jesus means water.

As far as I am concerned to be submerged in the Living water or H2O? I know whihc one I prefer.

Water baptism did indeed predate John the Baptist. Water baptism has its roots in Jewish practices of ritual purification (especially among the Essenes), known as "mikveh," which involved immersing in water to achieve spiritual cleanliness. This practice was common before the time of Jesus and was used for various purposes, including preparation for worship and conversion to Judaism.

The problem with so many modern people who claim belief in the Bible is that they read places like Acts 2:38 and think that applies to us today as the body of Christ...regardless of the fact that Paul never once commanded water baptism for anyone in the body of Christ with him even declaring that he was not sent to baptize as a contrast to what John declared was a part of his mission.

The audience of Jews to whom Peter preached were under the Kingdom Gospel whereby their salvation was reliant upon that water baptism given that the remission of their sins was contingent upon the obedient fulfillment of that act, with them receiving Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands. Blessedly, that is not the case for us today, but some people choose to chain themselves to the Law rather than to accept the only gospel valid for us today.

Good stuff, my friend. Keep up the good discussion.

MM

 

[ChrBrotherist]

I guess you didn't notice I was questing the Barber guy.

But tell me how are we to be reborn?

romans 4

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(quickeneth = to be made alive)


1 Peter 1:23 - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[sawdust]

Questions you have not answered,

1. How do we get "regenerated we are dead in our sins"

2. Can you explain how spirit gives birth to spirit???

New questions,
KJV John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1. Who said this, where did it come from? Your personal John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

2. Expline what are they and what is the difference, "Regeneration and baptism are two different things"

3. If you believe what is written why don't you believe being baptized in JESUS name is how we get rid of our sins?

4. Same as old question #2.

I do not take scripture funny at all IT'S HIS WORD.

What I don't take seriously in men with their twisted talking in circles opinion.

If you want to be taken seriously just answers those question so I can make since of what you are saying.

I have already answered, you simply don't like the answers I gave.

You have a nice day

 

[Musicmaster]

I will a dress two comments of yours:

first -The lake of fire...the one you claim to not believe in?
The Lake of Fire IS NOT HELL, it burn to ashes and the person is dead for ever, no torture involved.

Second
So, you don't have answers to my questions? Peter was an apostle to Israel, not the body of Christ to whom Paul preached and served as THE apostle.

What?? so you are stating gentile "Christians" are only to listen to Paul and none of the other 12 OR CHRIST??

Paul states and you must be well aware of this one-- " 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Show me how you can twist this one?

I came On this blog to see, first hand, how the WORD of GOD has been twisted into knots by the 40,000 flavors of confusion--- to achieve 40,000 flavors ---- the WORD must be twisted!!!!!

The human mind is an amazing thing --- the abilities God put in it are all most limitless -- for good and for evil!

Please start another thread if you want to discuss this topic involving your imaginary injections of "ashes" in that lake of fire, etc.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Second
So, you don't have answers to my questions? Peter was an apostle to Israel, not the body of Christ to whom Paul preached and served as THE apostle.

What?? so you are stating gentile "Christians" are only to listen to Paul and none of the other 12 OR CHRIST??

Paul states and you must be well aware of this one-- " 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Show me how you can twist this one?

I came On this blog to see, first hand, how the WORD of GOD has been twisted into knots by the 40,000 flavors of confusion--- to achieve 40,000 flavors ---- the WORD must be twisted!!!!!

The human mind is an amazing thing --- the abilities God put in it are all most limitless -- for good and for evil!

If you're going to assume twisting on my part, then you've already defeated any conversation over any topic from scripture. Your attitude alone about all this screams that you will never accept what scripture says in the clarity of its language, so what's the use?

MM

 

[Ouch]

romans 4

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(quickeneth = to be made alive)


1 Peter 1:23 - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Thank you, I didn't ask for any scripture, I asked HOW ARE WE TO BE REBORN?

If you think that JESUS was not talking about being born of the water meaning being baptized in JESUS name then show me what WE have to do to be reborn.

Since we are born in sin, born naturally how do we get rid of them?

Since JESUS also said we have to be born of spirit, how do WE get born of spirit?

Just read those verses?