Loss of salvation???

[Inquisitor]

John 10: 27,28: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

It sounds to me like a sheep that is hearing his voice ad following him will get to heaven.


John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It sounds to me like the one is not believing on the Son will go to hell.

Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.

We must endure in our faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you understand that if you do not endure then you are lost?

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm not seeing much if any disagreement re: what John10:27-28 actually say and don't say.

The disagreement seems to be what's included and not included or attached and not attached.

Your missing the point.

Nothing can take you away from Jesus and we agree with that.

Yet we are told to pursue holiness, love, faithfulness, but why?

Why can't we go to church and put our trust in Jesus but never go to church again?

Why can't we live life to the full?

Can a Christian who became a Christian a year ago but now want's nothing to do with Jesus.
Still be saved because nothing can remove you from God's grace?

No one is going to tell me that a Christian who starts getting drunk and beating his slaves.
Will at the end of their lifetime be ushered into immortality with Jesus.

You will know a Christian by the fruit they bare.

If the bright lamp a Christian holds runs out of oil and the bridegroom returns. You know
how it ends.

 

[studier]

Your missing the point.

What makes you think so?

Nothing can take you away from Jesus and we agree with that.

Who's "we"?

Is there a reason you don't seem to be including me in "we"?

 

[Inquisitor]

What makes you think so?



Who's "we"?

Is there a reason you don't seem to be including me in "we"?

You receive the gift of salvation because you believed in Jesus (Romans 10:9).

Then later in life you no longer believe in Jesus then you have cancelled the contract.

You must endure in the faith.

The bottom line is if you deny Jesus then He will deny you!

 

[HeIsHere]

Your missing the point.

Nothing can take you away from Jesus and we agree with that.

Yet we are told to pursue holiness, love, faithfulness, but why?

Why can't we go to church and put our trust in Jesus but never go to church again?

Why can't we live life to the full?

Can a Christian who became a Christian a year ago but now want's nothing to do with Jesus.
Still be saved because nothing can remove you from God's grace?

No one is going to tell me that a Christian who starts getting drunk and beating his slaves.
Will at the end of their lifetime be ushered into immortality with Jesus.

You will know a Christian by the fruit they bare.

If the bright lamp a Christian holds runs out of oil and the bridegroom returns. You know
how it ends.

Objective truth cannot be decided by observing another person's behaviour.

All scripture makes it clear that saved is saved and not probation.

 

[HeIsHere]

You receive the gift of salvation because you believed in Jesus (Romans 10:9).

Then later in life you no longer believe in Jesus then you have cancelled the contract.

You must endure in the faith.

The bottom line is if you deny Jesus then He will deny you!

Is salvation then a reward for endurance?

 

[studier]

You receive the gift of salvation because you believed in Jesus (Romans 10:9).

Then later in life you no longer believe in Jesus then you have cancelled the contract.

You must endure in the faith.

The bottom line is if you deny Jesus then He will deny you!

Thanks, I understand the arguments for and against eternal security, but what makes you think I'm missing the point?

 

[Inquisitor]

Is salvation then a reward for endurance?

Salvation is a gift given to anyone who calls on the name of the Lord.

The endurance simply means that believing in Jesus is a continuous belief.

Not a belief in Jesus that wilts when the sun rises.

 

[HeIsHere]

Salvation is a gift given to anyone who calls on the name of the Lord.

The endurance simply means that believing in Jesus is a continuous belief.

Not a belief in Jesus that wilts when the sun rises.

Well practically speaking though, if we can lose salvation it then becomes like wages earned and puts God in our debt... I cannot see a way around this.

What scripture do you base this on and which verb tense?

 

[Inquisitor]

Is salvation then a reward for endurance?

The scripture states that the reward (salvation) is based on that trust in Jesus.

Believe and saved, no longer believe then no longer saved.

If you deny Jesus then He will deny you.

It is so simple.

 

[HeIsHere]

The scripture states that the reward (salvation) is based on that trust in Jesus.

Believe and saved, no longer believe then no longer saved.

If you deny Jesus then He will deny you.

It is so simple.

Well like I stated I need the specific scriptures.


Having states this, if it is the scripture I think you are using when it states "He will deny you" it not spiritual salvation that is in view but the rewards given in heaven to the saved according to their works her on earth.

 

[NightTwister]

Clarify?

The verses I posted. People of course can try to make them say something else, but only if they come to them with an agenda.

 

[HeIsHere]

The scripture states that the reward (salvation) is based on that trust in Jesus.

Believe and saved, no longer believe then no longer saved.

If you deny Jesus then He will deny you.

It is so simple.

My other question is there a quota.. or lets put it this way if one day I lack "belief" and happen to die on that one particular day, but otherwise was completely faithful does that mean that I have lost my salvation?

And what is exactly does it mean exactly to longer believe?

 

[Inquisitor]

Well like I stated I need the specific scriptures.


Having states this, if it is the scripture I think you are using when it states "He will deny you" it not spiritual salvation that is in view but the rewards given in heaven to the saved according to their works her on earth.

Romans 10:13
For “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

The scripture is very clear that denial of Jesus cancels the contract.

 

[Inquisitor]

My other question is there a quota.. or lets put it this way if one day I lack "belief" and happen to die on that one particular day, but otherwise was completely faithful does that mean that I have lost my salvation?

And what is exactly does it mean exactly to longer believe?

Did Jesus tell you to endure or not?

A simple question.

No quota; only those that continue to call on Jesus are saved.

 

[studier]

The verses I posted. People of course can try to make them say something else, but only if they come to them with an agenda.

Yes, this seems to be part of the discussion. Most pointedly based upon the OP of this thread, do those verses mean that none of His people can choose to walk away from Him and lose or give up eternal life - or salvation per the OP - which is a usual discussion re: John10.

 

[Genez]

There have always been those with itching ears. More likely Paul was actually speaking of the time of those he was speaking to.

Paul was speaking prophetically of a future event in time...

Did you read it?

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound/endure doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of ​

teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

See what other translations have to say:
https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-3.htm

Paul was predicting the future of the Church.​

.......

 

[Kroogz]

What would win the argument, for, or against?
Give him a fair hearing.

Besides... There should not be a lot of good pastors, unless 2 Timothy 4:3 is a lie.
There will be a lot of good pastors for one's personal preference only.

​

​

For the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ​

Only a few find it.
Even, if they were at one time told the truth!
Only a few will.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, ​

because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. " James 3:1​

​

I am just a messenger.....​

Some spectacular doctrine and truth in the previous posts Genez. Thank you.

Again. There are Many very astute and well studied folks on these forums.

And there are 2 or 3 that are very acquainted with HIM personally........You are one of them. I look forward to all your insights.

 

[Genez]

Did Jesus tell you to endure or not?

A simple question.

No quota; only those that continue to call on Jesus are saved.

Who was Jesus addressing?
Jews before the Cross took place?

Or, to the Church?

 

[Cameron143]

Paul was speaking prophetically of a future event in time...

Did you read it?

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound/endure doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of ​

teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

See what other translations have to say:
https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-3.htm

Paul was predicting the future of the Church.​

.......

That's simply your take. It was future to the time he wrote it, but it doesn't say how far into the future it would be true. The audience to which he actually wrote it to is just as likely to be in view, if not more so, than today.