Loss of salvation???

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Toknow said:
Sh, dont tell her, she might get upset:
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f] Rom1:17
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Sure.
But we ARE created for good works.

But you keep asking why I believe this.

I believe it because the NT says so.

And you just stated it also.

So why are we debating this??[/QUOTE]
If we agree our righteousness is faith from first to last, we're cool
BTW
Do you agree with the council of Trent?

Salvation is attained through faith, baptism and obeying the ten commandments
 
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Toknow said:
If you want to state that we do not need to obey God...
you can.

I just will never agree.

As to works...that's for you and God to know.

Not me.

Seems to me you don't even understand what good works are.

Neither does @mailmandan or anybody else that wants to teach that we don't need to obey God.

They're just afraid of the word WORKS.

or
there might actually be a reason...I certainly do not know.

what I do know is that God demands obedience.

Yes. demands.

It was stated even way back in the OT...
because GOD DOESN'T CHANGE.

1 Samuel 15:22
22And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.
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Nobody is saying that we don't need to obey God/obedience is meaningless/disobey God all you want, no big deal etc.. We are simply putting obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ in their proper place. Subsequent to obtaining salvation through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) I'm not afraid of works but I would be afraid for anyone who promotes a "works based" false gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)
 
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James456 said:
Sure.
But we ARE created for good works.

But you keep asking why I believe this.

I believe it because the NT says so.

And you just stated it also.

So why are we debating this??
If we agree our righteousness is faith from first to last, we're cool
BTW
Do you agree with the council of Trent?

Salvation is attained through faith, baptism and obeying the ten commandments
Click to expand...
You're stating that you believe in FAITH ONLY.
No.
I do not believe in faith only because that is not what the NT teaches.

The Council of Trent?
It believes that we are to have
FAITH
BE BAPTIZED
OBEY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
??

Yes. Then I do believe that the council of Trent is correct.
it was probably as a backlash to Luther's teaching that all we need is FAITH.


However, I must state that the CC believes we are saved by FAITH and NOT WORKS.
Not sure what the council of Trent taught...would have to look it up.
 
Toknow said:
The Council of Trent?
It believes that we are to have
FAITH
BE BAPTIZED
OBEY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
??

Yes. Then I do believe in the Council of Trent.

.
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So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6



Which law is Paul talking about in the above? He goes on to tell us:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet/one of the Ten Commandments.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7&8
 
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Toknow said:
You're stating that you believe in FAITH ONLY.
No.
I do not believe in faith only because that is not what the NT teaches.

The Council of Trent?
It believes that we are to have
FAITH
BE BAPTIZED
OBEY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
??

Yes. Then I do believe that the council of Trent is correct.
it was probably as a backlash to Luther's teaching that all we need is FAITH.


However, I must state that the CC believes we are saved by FAITH and NOT WORKS.
Not sure what the council of Trent taught...would have to look it up.
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FYI

CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the(ten) Commandments.”
 
James456 said:
Sure.
But we ARE created for good works.

But you keep asking why I believe this.

I believe it because the NT says so.

And you just stated it also.

So why are we debating this??

If we agree our righteousness is faith from first to last, we're cool
BTW
Do you agree with the council of Trent?

Salvation is attained through faith, baptism and obeying the ten commandments
Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So, we are NOT saved BY good works but FOR good works. :)

In regard to the council of Trent, check out this article below:

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:
Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favor of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)​
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.​
Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.​
Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.​
Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.​

Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!
 
James456 said:
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6



Which law is Paul talking about in the above? He goes on to tell us:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet/one of the Ten Commandments.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7&8
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No lists.
I told you just in the previous post,,,that you should not be asking for lists.

You're just confirming what I stated to you....
 
Toknow said:
No lists.
I told you just in the previous post,,,that you should not be asking for lists.

You're just confirming what I stated to you....
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Nope, Paul's words are NOT compatable with the council of Trent stating salvation is attained in part by obeying the ten commandments
 
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James456 said:
FYI

CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the(ten) Commandments.”
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Clear cut case of salvation by faith AND WORKS. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic on a Christian forum and check out what he said to me below in blue:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying the commandments etc..

As you can see, his argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. What I found very interesting was during our conversation, this Roman Catholic who made that statement above in blue just got through telling me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then contradicted himself by stating that we are saved by faith + accomplishing this list of works above. Sugar coated double talk/smoke and mirrors.
 
mailmandan said:
Clear cut case of salvation by faith AND WORKS. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic on a Christian forum and check out what he said to me below in blue:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying the commandments etc..

As you can see, his argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. What I found very interesting was during our conversation, this Roman Catholic who made that statement above in blue just got through telling me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then contradicted himself by stating that we are saved by faith + accomplishing this list of works above. Sugar coated double talk/smoke and mirrors.
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Thanks for that. The thing is, Paul says we die to the law in order to bear fruit for God, we are released from it and serve in the new way of the spirit not the old way of the written code/law, and he gives an example of one of the ten commandments concerning this. That cannot be compatable with Trent stating salvation is attained in part by obeying the ten commandments
 
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mailmandan said:
Clear cut case of salvation by faith AND WORKS. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic on a Christian forum and check out what he said to me below in blue:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying the commandments etc..

As you can see, his argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. What I found very interesting was during our conversation, this Roman Catholic who made that statement above in blue just got through telling me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then contradicted himself by stating that we are saved by faith + accomplishing this list of works above. Sugar coated double talk/smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...
The CC teaches that we are saved ONLY BY FAITH.

But
We are not saved by FAITH ALONE.

Which is what YOU teach!

A brand new teaching from about 200 years ago.

Even the reformers believed in good works and baptism.
 
Toknow said:
The CC teaches that we are saved ONLY BY FAITH.

But
We are not saved by FAITH ALONE.
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OXYMORON.

Which is what YOU teach!
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Here is what I teach. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

A brand new teaching from about 200 years ago.
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My teaching is much older than that and comes straight out of scripture.

Even the reformers believed in good works and baptism.
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FOR salvation or AFTER salvation?
 
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mailmandan said:
OXYMORON.

Here is what I teach. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

My teaching is much older than that and comes straight out of scripture.

FOR salvation or AFTER salvation?
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AFTER....
As I've been saying forever.

And it's not an oxymoron...but too late to get into this.
I'm really leaving this time....
 
Just_A__Follower said:
Just in general. Would it go by number of individual tats or overall area of coverage?

I’ve actually heard people that that if you get a tattoo you’ll go to hell so I guess one is too many to them.
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Leviticus does speak about this.

But i did say that one is too many so you might be mentioning ME.

You'll find that I NEVER say that anybody is going to hell.
Know why?
Because only God knows.

And tatoos, in case you were thinking of me (although I've come to accept that I'm not the center of the universe)
I don't like them because I think their not attractive...they are rather ugly. And some put them all over and put too many.
They must look horrible on older folk. A person might change their mind.

Woman,,,especially...just should keep away.
Is there any distinction anymore between guys and gals??
Must women do everything men do?

Wanna start a thead??
JK
'night.
 
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Toknow said:
Jeff
If you have something to add to the discussion...
add it.

Otherwise disappear like you usually do.

Did YOU get kicked off the other Forum?
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My name is not Jeff, plus I am not a man.

I think it is a fair question since you go..... on and on and on and on .... about obedience.
 
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Toknow said:
No.
What I stated is not personal.

Only the reformed believe women should keep out of stuff.
Oh.
And Muslims or the Islamic faith.


And I didn't ASK if you're reformed....
I stated that you probably are....

and, yes, you probably are.
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Toknow said:
HOW do you know what I do?
WHY is this so personal to you?

Can we just keep this to theology and keep out the personal questions and comments?
 
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