Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

No, Im just being honest, Ive not come across anyone in fifty years who did all of the following:
Do not invite friends and family home for a meal, but the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven
If ANYONE asks to lend from you, give to them without expecting anything back
If someone steals from you, give them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them
If you are persecuted, leap for joy
Love your enemies, really love them, those who may malign, slander or abuse you.
If you ever fast, do not as much as hint to anyone you are fasting.

I can put some more up. Maybe you think I know the wrong christians

You've said this before.

Can't keep replying to it.

Do you believe we are to obey Jesus?

It's a Yes or No answer.

 

[Toknow]

Don't forget, as Jesus told his disciples, what he taught them could be understand without the indwelling Holy Spirit, he said he wanted to teach them much more, but they could not yet bear such knowledge, but when the Spirit of truth was sent, he would guide them into all truth. Paul had received the Holy Spirit, and wrote to those who had also received him
Paul taught HOW to live a Holy life, but the rational mind of man will not understand his message:

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

To the rational mind of man the above is a licence to sin, to Paul the very opposite would be the result:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14


Impossible for the natural mind to understand or accept

You and the other member are allowed to believe that we don't need to obey God.

I choose to obey God...

I choose to post what Jesus taught...

NOT WHAT I THINK.

If sin is no longer your master....

why are you afraid to declare that we must obey God?

Odd.

 

[Toknow]

For me, this is how it SHOULD work.
Once again
A person gets saved, they believe they are secure with God under a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, apart from works of the law/works. In my view, such a person will love God far more than another who believes their continued salvation hinges on their personal performance. Then, out of overwhelming love and gratitude for the free salvation they have, works of love will automatically follow.
That is the works Jesus desires, in John15

What you have stated
IS NOT
What Jesus is teaching in John 15:2

WHY is this so difficult?

JESUS said

that
those IN HIM......saved persons....

that do not bear fruit.....do good works,

will be taken away .....from the vine.

The branch that does not do good works,,,(bears fruit) will be cut off the VINE.


Since the vine gives life...
that branch will die.


Ther person in John 15.2 that is IN CHRIST
MUST REMAIN IN CHRIST and do the good works HE commands

OR

THIS will happen by NOT ABIDING IN CHRIST:


John 15:6
6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


IF you want to listen to Jesus,,,
you should listen to Jesus...

IF you want to listen to man...and have the scriiptures twisted to suit a PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW....
you can also do that.

I would tend to listen to Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

That is not water baptism. If it were, it would require every single believer throughout history to be baptized with water in order to be saved. If being born of the Spirit is necessary then so is water. The reality is many were never baptized with water.



No I don't and no it doesn't. It foreshadows the reality we have when baptized with the Spirit. It is talking about how the flood foreshadowed the death to sin and new life we have in Christ. That reality can only be obtained through the work of the Holy Spirit. Water simply will not do that, it has no power to do that.



The baptism of Cornelius shows us water is unnecessary. He died to sin and was raised to life before Peter baptized him with water. The Spirit does His work on the authority of Christ, not the authority of men.

And I'll leave you with this. One baptism, something you have never addressed.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is for all those living since the NT began at Pentecost. Jesus prophesied concerning this in Luke 24:47.

As for your objection concerning water. Naaman thought the same way. Clearly, God can use whatever He wishes to accomplish His purposes. Accepting what God says about water baptism in the name of Jesus, and submitting to it is an act of faith.

Many have different views concerning the one baptism reference in Ephesians. I can only conclude that the one baptism is accomplished via water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. (John 3:5) Those who place their trust in Jesus are instructed to baptize others. His command can only be water baptism as God is the only one that can give the Holy Ghost. In each of the conversion accounts that record exact details, the last being Acts 19, we see both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are involved in the process.

Your comment that Cornelius' water baptism played no part in his being reborn is just your opinion. Scripture is clear obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus is for remission of sin. As such, it is essential element of salvation.

 

[Genez]

LOL, so you don't like people poing out your mistakes.

Got it.

Now be honest, have you been baptized in JESUS name to remove your sins???

Or do you think I'm setting you up?

It is you, sir, who are setting yourself up.

Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 16:18
​

.

 

[Wansvic]

You're right. We of Israel were indeed required to DO the actions that demonstrated our faith because we were under the Law. Even after the ascension of Christ Jesus, the apostles and my fellow Jews were still zealous for the Law. Paul, however, taught no such adherence nor zeal for the Law to you Gentiles and even taught my fellow Jews to abandon the Law of Moses, which included water baptism. Instead, Paul taught walking and living by the Spirit, that our righteousness is now based upon faith in love, not in works through ceremonial cleansing and remission of sins.

You are preaching "another" gospel, which makes you accursed by the standards of Paul's teachings, instructions and the revelations given to him by Christ Jesus. What being accursed entails, that's a matter for you alone to research and pray about. I'm not responsible for your standing in Christ given that you alone are on notice and are therefore responsible for what you do with the the knowledge given. If your chosen beliefs are such that you will remain aligned with them in spite of the evidence to the contrary, that's on your alone.

Shalom

MM

Your insistance that I am preaching another gospel does not make it true, and is grossly unfounded.

The command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin was not part of the OT law. The command was initiated in the NT on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[James456]

You've said this before.

Can't keep replying to it.

Do you believe we are to obey Jesus?

It's a Yes or No answer.

Yes:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Do you obey all of that list of commands I quoted?

 

[Genez]

Your insistance that I am preaching another gospel does not make it true, and is grossly unfounded.

The command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin was not part of the OT law. The command was initiated in the NT on the Day of Pentecost.

Water baptism...
John the Baptist was an OT believer, not Church.

Peter wanted to carry over into the Church age the dietary mandates found in the Law, but the Lord told him to stop.

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, ​

Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and ​

while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and ​

something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained ​

all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him,​

“Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”​

​

“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”​

​

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”​

​

Acts 10:9-15​

​

They all had to be taught the new way of life in Christ!

 

[HeIsHere]

You and the other member are allowed to believe that we don't need to obey God.

I choose to obey God...

I choose to post what Jesus taught...

NOT WHAT I THINK.

If sin is no longer your master....

why are you afraid to declare that we must obey God?

Odd.

Did you receive permission to return to Christian Chat?

 

[James456]

You and the other member are allowed to believe that we don't need to obey God.

I choose to obey God...

I choose to post what Jesus taught...

NOT WHAT I THINK.

If sin is no longer your master....

why are you afraid to declare that we must obey God?

Odd.

I am allowed to believe I don't need to obey God?
I don't have the luxury to think I can act however I like. I got born again decades ago.
It isn't a case of we MUST obey God
Rather we WANT to live as God desires us to live
Must old covenant
WANT TO new covenant.
How well do you obey God?
Do you obey all of Jesus commands in the gospels?
How would you know if you are more obedient than me?

 

[Wansvic]

You're right. We of Israel were indeed required to DO the actions that demonstrated our faith because we were under the Law. Even after the ascension of Christ Jesus, the apostles and my fellow Jews were still zealous for the Law. Paul, however, taught no such adherence nor zeal for the Law to you Gentiles and even taught my fellow Jews to abandon the Law of Moses, which included water baptism. Instead, Paul taught walking and living by the Spirit, that our righteousness is now based upon faith in love, not in works through ceremonial cleansing and remission of sins.

You are preaching "another" gospel, which makes you accursed by the standards of Paul's teachings, instructions and the revelations given to him by Christ Jesus. What being accursed entails, that's a matter for you alone to research and pray about. I'm not responsible for your standing in Christ given that you alone are on notice and are therefore responsible for what you do with the the knowledge given. If your chosen beliefs are such that you will remain aligned with them in spite of the evidence to the contrary, that's on your alone.

Shalom

MM

You're steering many away from the truth. And that is really sad. The truth is this: your fellow Jews insisted that NT believers who had already obeyed the commands presented at Pentecost be required to obey the OT command of circumcision as well. (Acts 15:5-10) That was the issue.

Paul never discouraged people from being water baptized, and he referenced and provided indepth details about it, And I don't know how often I have to say it, but Paul was still water baptizing people 20+ years after Pentecost. (Acts 19:1-7) If, as you suggest, it was an OT command why would Paul have water baptized anyone? He wouldn't have. But he did as scripture reveals time and again.

No matter how many times you say it, water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is not part of the OT law. Period. So stop leading people astray.

 

[James456]

What you have stated
IS NOT
What Jesus is teaching in John 15:2

WHY is this so difficult?

JESUS said

that
those IN HIM......saved persons....

that do not bear fruit.....do good works,

will be taken away .....from the vine.

The branch that does not do good works,,,(bears fruit) will be cut off the VINE.


Since the vine gives life...
that branch will die.


Ther person in John 15.2 that is IN CHRIST
MUST REMAIN IN CHRIST and do the good works HE commands

OR

THIS will happen by NOT ABIDING IN CHRIST:


John 15:6
6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


IF you want to listen to Jesus,,,
you should listen to Jesus...

IF you want to listen to man...and have the scriiptures twisted to suit a PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW....
you can also do that.

I would tend to listen to Jesus.

I don't spend my christian life worrying about my performance being good enough or I will be cast into hell.
Im in a loving relationship with Christ, I trust I am secure in him. I don't spend my time with him worrying about whether I've done enough works not to be cut off from him. How would that be a loving relationship?

 

[Toknow]

Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is for all those living since the NT began at Pentecost. Jesus prophesied concerning this in Luke 24:47.

As for your objection concerning water. Naaman thought the same way. Clearly, God can use whatever He wishes to accomplish His purposes. Accepting what God says about water baptism in the name of Jesus, and submitting to it is an act of faith.

Many have different views concerning the one baptism reference in Ephesians. I can only conclude that the one baptism is accomplished via water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. (John 3:5) Those who place their trust in Jesus are instructed to baptize others. His command can only be water baptism as God is the only one that can give the Holy Ghost. In each of the conversion accounts that record exact details, the last being Acts 19, we see both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are involved in the process.

Your comment that Cornelius' water baptism played no part in his being reborn is just your opinion. Scripture is clear obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus is for remission of sin. As such, it is essential element of salvation.

I do believe that Cornelius was saved.
However, he also did not know about being baptized.

Once we come to know this...
then it does become a requirement.

 

[Genez]

I do believe that Cornelius was saved.
However, he also did not know about being baptized.

Once we come to know this...
then it does become a requirement.

So then...
Does teaching the Church that we need to tithe become a requirement for the Church age?

 

[Toknow]

Yes:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Do you obey all of that list of commands I quoted?

Oh for goodness sakes james.

Are you serious?

Do you?


I guess you're perfect.
Surely you'll do a lot of good works
and get into heaven.

Apparently even without faith if you can ask such a question such as you did.

 

[Toknow]

Did you receive permission to return to Christian Chat?

Jeff
If you have something to add to the discussion...
add it.

Otherwise disappear like you usually do.

Did YOU get kicked off the other Forum?

 

[James456]

Oh for goodness sakes james.

Are you serious?

Do you?


I guess you're perfect.
Surely you'll do a lot of good works
and get into heaven.

Apparently even without faith if you can ask such a question such as you did.

Well youre the one who keeps repeating we must have works/obey Jesus. That's the only reason I asked you
What works do you think I am not doing that I should be doing?

 

[Toknow]

I am allowed to believe I don't need to obey God?
I don't have the luxury to think I can act however I like. I got born again decades ago.
It isn't a case of we MUST obey God
Rather we WANT to live as God desires us to live
Must old covenant
WANT TO new covenant.
How well do you obey God?
Do you obey all of Jesus commands in the gospels?
How would you know if you are more obedient than me?

Silly questions James.

You keep asking them.
You will NOT be getting a reply.

 

[James456]

Silly questions James.

You keep asking them.
You will NOT be getting a reply.

So why do you keep repeating we must obey Jesus or we will be cut off. Obey him in which way?
You seemed horrified to me at my stating I had never met any christian who even tried to obey each and every command of Christ, so, I assumed from your comment you must be obeying at least most of them

 

[Toknow]

Well youre the one who keeps repeating we must have works/obey Jesus. That's the only reason I asked you
What works do you think I am not doing that I should be doing?

If you want to state that we do not need to obey God...
you can.

I just will never agree.

As to works...that's for you and God to know.

Not me.

Seems to me you don't even understand what good works are.

Neither does @mailmandan or anybody else that wants to teach that we don't need to obey God.

They're just afraid of the word WORKS.

or
there might actually be a reason...I certainly do not know.


what I do know is that God demands obedience.

Yes. demands.

It was stated even way back in the OT...
because GOD DOESN'T CHANGE.


1 Samuel 15:22
22And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.