Loss of salvation???

[mailmandan]

Actually it IS about MUST.

I know that it's an uncomfortable word...
but it's what Jesus taught.

The LAWLESS are not going to make it to heaven.
The lawless are those who do not follow the law.

What law?

The law of Christ.
The commandments of Christ.
The Moral Commandments, the Ten Commandments.

All rolled into 2:
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

JESUS said:

Matthew 7:23
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Jesus DID state exactly who would make it to heaven:

Matthew 7: 21
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

And WHO does the will of the Father?
Those that obey jesus...
God has always demanded obedience.

All the more...
obedience to His Son.

Luke 11:28
28But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

James 1:22
22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

John 14:21
21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me.

1 Samuel 15:22
22And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

*Don't confuse God's will for us IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

With God's will for us AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

I would say:
Old covenant you MUST
New covenant, you WANT TO

Exactly.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

It's plainly stated.

Now you’re just saying that almost all Christians are illiterate.

 

[Toknow]

You cant not want to. God Himself at conversion places what is written in applicable law in the hearts and minds of believers. Meaning, in your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart(the flesh is another matter) you want to live that way. Our hearts have been softened, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, we have been born again and are new creations

Under the old covenant, the Israelites had an external law, an external law does not mean you in your heart want to obey it. God said they were a stiff necked people who would soon desert Him when they reached the promised land, hence: You MUST.

I actually agree with you.
But have you never come across posters that claim that good works are NOT necessary when Jesus' entire teachings were to promote the Kingdom of Heaven right here on earth.

He meant for this world to be a better place and He came to show how. (besides the atonement).

I like to distinguish between OSAS
ETENAL SALVATION and
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.

Many that believe in OSAS tend to have a very light attitude toward the teachings of Jesus.

I think the word MUST in obedience to God is a correct idea...
but there are others that do not agree.

 

[Toknow]

Exactly.

Sure.
But did you read my reply to James??

You probably won't like the reply.

 

[Toknow]

So, how we accept the gift seems to be the main focus of our disagreement. I believe we accept the gift through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) I believe we are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) You "add" baptism to that equation.

Nothing to do with baptism is correct. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism.

Yes, figurative, just like the words of Jesus in John 6:53-54 are figurative. Salvation by water baptism is in contradiction to salvation through faith. Salvation by water baptism is salvation by works.

Some teachings in the NT are literal and some teachings are figurative, as we just saw in John 6:53-54 and Acts 22:16. Do you believe that Jesus was teaching literal (cannibalism) in John 6:53-54?

Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Yes.

My church teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, not works and so does the Bible. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Not everything Jesus said to do is a prerequisite for salvation. There are commands by Jesus for believers which follow "after" one has already been saved through faith.

The same reason why Jesus commanded us to eat His body and drink His blood (John 6:53-54) which is FIGURATIVE. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

I take what people write and test it in light of what scripture says. Neither the church fathers nor their writings are infallible.

Great!

You just carpet bombed me. LOL! I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In regard to Peter in 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished. So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20.

The BOOK only happens because you insist on taking paragraphs to change what is plainly written in scripture.

Later....

 

[James456]

I actually agree with you.
But have you never come across posters that claim that good works are NOT necessary when Jesus' entire teachings were to promote the Kingdom of Heaven right here on earth.

He meant for this world to be a better place and He came to show how. (besides the atonement).

I like to distinguish between OSAS
ETENAL SALVATION and
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.

Many that believe in OSAS tend to have a very light attitude toward the teachings of Jesus.

I think the word MUST in obedience to God is a correct idea...
but there are others that do not agree.

To be honest, I've come across many who say you are justified apart from works, but Im struggling to think of any who have said works are not necessary.
I've also found, many who end up believing in OSAS do so, for they know they always stand guilty before the law, though I also acknowledge, as in biblical times there are those who take advantage of it(Jude4)
I know Jesus said Ye MUST be born again, but Im not sure how many other instances he used that phrase.

 

[mailmandan]

To be honest, I've come across many who say you are justified apart from works, but Im struggling to think of any who have said works are not necessary....

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[James456]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Exactly, well put

 

[Toknow]

Now you’re just saying that almost all Christians are illiterate.

Take it as you wish Just.

Scripture PLAINLY states that baptism forgives sins.

I said it is PLAINLY STATED.

If YOU want to take that to mean that Christians are ILLITERATE...
THAT'S ON YOU.


Don't put words in my mouth please.


Acts 2:38
38 “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,


Acts 22:16
16 Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins,


Colossians 2:12
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And [l]when you were dead [m]in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,

Titus 3:5
5but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:21
21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Toknow]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

So you're proving to @James456 that good works are NOT necessary....

GREAT MMD.

Always teaching against what Jesus taught.

A wolf in sheep's clothing.


2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I solemnly exhort you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 preach the word; be ready [a]in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and [b]exhort, with [c]great patience and instruction.

3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires,

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

 

[Toknow]

To be honest, I've come across many who say you are justified apart from works, but Im struggling to think of any who have said works are not necessary.
I've also found, many who end up believing in OSAS do so, for they know they always stand guilty before the law, though I also acknowledge, as in biblical times there are those who take advantage of it(Jude4)
I know Jesus said Ye MUST be born again, but Im not sure how many other instances he used that phrase.

Many teach that works are not necessary.
Right here
Right now.

 

[James456]

Many teach that works are not necessary.
Right here
Right now.

OK, I believe you, but I dont think that's what mailmandan is suggesting. I understand, from what he wrote genuine faith will never be alone, works will accompany it, a genuine salvation by faith apart from works

 

[Toknow]

OK, I believe you

Jesus said it...
not me.

I just post what Jesus said in those red words.

Then some try to change those words.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Do we follow our wants?

We only do what we want more.

I actually agree with you.
But have you never come across posters that claim that good works are NOT necessary when Jesus' entire teachings were to promote the Kingdom of Heaven right here on earth.

He meant for this world to be a better place and He came to show how. (besides the atonement).

I like to distinguish between OSAS
ETENAL SALVATION and
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.

Many that believe in OSAS tend to have a very light attitude toward the teachings of Jesus.

I think the word MUST in obedience to God is a correct idea...
but there are others that do not agree.

The problem with MUST is that people can go through the motions and they believe they are saved based off their actions. They look at what they are doing a say to themselves “ I’m doing what I must do, I should be good”. But whether their heart has changed or not is up in the air. How bout we put it this way, You Must Want to follow His commandments to be saved.

We only do what we want to do. There are usually multiple wants so we end up doing what we want more. If someone holds a gun to my to my head and tells me to give them my wallet, I want to keep my money. But I want more to live. Let’s say we sin by lying to our boss to protect our job. We want to tell the truth but in the moment we want more to keep our job. We know the right thing to do but our desire overcomes our wisdom.

 

[James456]

Jesus said it...
not me.

I just post what Jesus said in those red words.

Then some try to change those words.

Which red words?
In fifty years Ive never come across anyone who even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the gospels
I would go with what Paul wrote:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2
By this will all men know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another

 

[Musicmaster]

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice
and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets before you.

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Water baptism is from another gospel, not the Gospel of Grace preached by the man who was inspired to write the above to us.
MM

 

[Sipsey]

Thank you for your concern.

How can you tell if a person is saved?

Or how long they have been?

Since all I do is share how to get reborn, the first 5 books are my go to.

After the book of Acts you will not find any scripture on how to be reborn since most of them are they are to Church's.

Take it as you wish Just.

Scripture PLAINLY states that baptism forgives sins.

I said it is PLAINLY STATED.

If YOU want to take that to mean that Christians are ILLITERATE...
THAT'S ON YOU.


Don't put words in my mouth please.


Acts 2:38
38 “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,


Acts 22:16
16 Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins,


Colossians 2:12
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And [l]when you were dead [m]in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,

Titus 3:5
5but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:21
21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Everyone agrees with your statement, “Scripture PLAINLY states that baptism forgives sins.”

The disagreement comes from the fact the Scripture speaks of one baptism. Anyone that can read knows the Bible speaks of an inward Spiritual and an outward physical baptism. Which do you think carries more weight with God?

No Christian I know of speaks against being physically baptized in water, what they do protest is the claim by some that they are not saved until they get wet.

That phrase comes straight from Ephesians 4:4–6:
“There is one body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all…”

Here’s the plain-spoken meaning
One faith-
The shared belief in Jesus Christ—His life, death, resurrection, and lordship.

Not many saving systems, denominations, or formulas. One gospel, one trust.

One baptism—
The unifying reality of being identified with Christ and brought into His body.

Paul’s emphasis here is unity, not technique.

Elsewhere he explains that this happens by the Spirit:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Big picture
Paul isn’t listing rituals to check off. He’s grounding Christian unity in what God has already done:

One Savior
One message
One people
One transforming work that brings us into Christ

Water baptism fits as an outward sign and obedience, but the verse itself points to the shared spiritual reality, not a requirement that divides believers by method, timing, or medium.

 

[mailmandan]

I've also found, many who end up believing in OSAS do so, for they know they always stand guilty before the law, though I also acknowledge, as in biblical times there are those who take advantage of it (Jude4)

I actually prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security the believer" over OSAS because of all the negative connotations that typically get attached to OSAS (license to sin/license for immortality) by those who strongly oppose it.

OSAS does become heresy when you attach "license to sin/license for emmorality" to it just like NOSAS becomes heresy when you attach "salvation by works/works righteousness" to it.

Now i regard to Jude 4, Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19). In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

 

[Ouch]

Everyone agrees with your statement, “Scripture PLAINLY states that baptism forgives sins.”

The disagreement comes from the fact the Scripture speaks of one baptism. Anyone that can read knows the Bible speaks of an inward Spiritual and an outward physical baptism. Which do you think carries more weight with God?

No Christian I know of speaks against being physically baptized in water, what they do protest is the claim by some that they are not saved until they get wet.

That phrase comes straight from Ephesians 4:4–6:
“There is one body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all…”

Here’s the plain-spoken meaning
One faith-
The shared belief in Jesus Christ—His life, death, resurrection, and lordship.

Not many saving systems, denominations, or formulas. One gospel, one trust.

One baptism—
The unifying reality of being identified with Christ and brought into His body.

Paul’s emphasis here is unity, not technique.

Elsewhere he explains that this happens by the Spirit:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Big picture
Paul isn’t listing rituals to check off. He’s grounding Christian unity in what God has already done:

One Savior
One message
One people
One transforming work that brings us into Christ

Water baptism fits as an outward sign and obedience, but the verse itself points to the shared spiritual reality, not a requirement that divides believers by method, timing, or medium.

Keep it simple.

1. Is it true we need to be baptized in JESUS name to remove our sins?

That is bible.

Your statement that it fits an outward sign is NOT BIBLE, if it was you could back it up with scripture.

2. Is it true that we need the Holy Ghost?

JESUS says in John 3:5 we need BOTH.

Peters first message says BOTH in Acts 2:38.

In the 4 accouts of being reborn Acts 2,8,10 and 19 BOTH being baptized in JESUS name and when JESUS filled them they spoke in tougues.

Since your the one trying to prove, we only need one which one is it?

Since it's our job to be odident and summit to being bapitzed for remmmions of our sins.

And it's JESUS job to fill us with the Holy Ghost.

Who is not suppose to do their job?

Us or JESUS?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

How do you explain what JESUS says?

Why do you assume when It says one baptism it the one who which JESUS is supose to do?

 

[Musicmaster]

The main reason for the continuance in debating about water baptism allegedly remitting sin rests within the failure to rightly divide the word of truth:

2 Timothy 2:14-19
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Granted, the above context is about the rapture. However, the concept is indeed valid. Those who teach the works-based salvation of the Kingdom Gospel, they are stuck with the hope that the Kingdom Gospel still has a power to save them, for they certainly have fallen from grace to dare try and preach another gospel to those whom they convert into their religion:

Galatians 5:3-6
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Water baptism was of the Law just as was circumcision. Paul, however, who was of the circumcision, preached not baptism in command, although he practiced it at times among a small number of people.

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

I enlarged the relevant wording to show that there is indeed two different gospels, therefore two different dispensations, both of which rest upon the foundation of Christ Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross. If it were one and the same gospel, the wording would have reflected that by saying something like, "The gospel of the uncircumcision and the circumcision given unto Peter and to me." The intentional wording in the direction of distinctive gospels is clearly stated, even though some reject and ignore that in leu of their chosen beliefs.

The idea of us today being remitted for our sins on the basis of any element of the Mosaic Law, no:

Within our system of the Mosaic Law within Israel, our priests were baptized (washed) in water before entering service at the age of 30. See such verses as Exodus 29:4 and Leviticus 8:6. So, with water baptism (washing) having its foundations within the Mosaic Law, it makes sense that Paul was instructed by Christ to put aside ALL that is of the Law and to move forward into that which is by the Spirit alone through faith, thus the reasoning for the need that we rightly divide the word of truth.

I can't say that those who look to the Kingdom Gospel, deeply rooted in the Mosaic Law, are saved today if they still adhere to that aspect of the Mosaic Law, but chancing that by boasting of one's water baptism, that's a dangerous place to be...given that those who preach it are accursed according to Paul of Tarsus. If that touches upon salvation, then they perhaps have something of a more serious nature to consider. James, in Acts 15, nowhere declared the continuance of the Law among you Gentiles and us Jews under the Gospel of Grace except for four items, none of which included that baptism (washing).

MM