So you say, didn't I just reply to you asking me if Paul baptized them in water or with the spirit?
Loss of salvation???
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So you say, didn't I just reply to you asking me if Paul baptized them in water or with the spirit?
J
James456
Guest
Don't worry, they believe the Holy Spirit dwells in the unsaved, and you'll be cast into hell if you do not speak in tongues. The internet is a strange place at times
Did you know that is how we get our sins?
Which is natural?
JESUS is talking about being REBORN, which is spiritual!!!
J
James456
Guest
Some say, the bible is an inflexible rulebook, but how much of it do they believe is so?
Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away, how many eyes have these people got?
Jesus gave literalistic commands, how many of these do people who say the rulebook must be followed themselves follow?
IE
Do not invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, blind lame and beggars.
The pharisees of Jesus day viewed the bible as an inflexible literalistic rulebook, but they were also selective in what they considered as such.
And by their attitude they neglected the love of God(Luke11:42)
I doubt the love of God is being taken into account when telling people they will be cast into hell if they do not speak in tongues.
Thepharisees made up extra biblical commands
Where is the command in scripture to be found where it is stated you MUST speak in tongues to be saved? Anyone can make a doctrine up using scripture to do it, however, salvational belief is always clearly spelt out
People say no sin must enter heaven, it must all be purged/forgiven. Yet in truth, according to where the bar is set not to commit sin, believers regretfully sin every day.
Its irrelevant anyway as your flesh cannot enter Heaven and you sin in your flesh.
The pharisees of Jesus day, who lived according to an inflexible literalistic rulebook did not understand the message the letter contained, they neglected the love of God, and showed no love to their neighbour either. They were arrogant, believing they understood better than the people. Has anything changed in 2,000 years?
Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away, how many eyes have these people got?
Jesus gave literalistic commands, how many of these do people who say the rulebook must be followed themselves follow?
IE
Do not invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, blind lame and beggars.
The pharisees of Jesus day viewed the bible as an inflexible literalistic rulebook, but they were also selective in what they considered as such.
And by their attitude they neglected the love of God(Luke11:42)
I doubt the love of God is being taken into account when telling people they will be cast into hell if they do not speak in tongues.
Thepharisees made up extra biblical commands
Where is the command in scripture to be found where it is stated you MUST speak in tongues to be saved? Anyone can make a doctrine up using scripture to do it, however, salvational belief is always clearly spelt out
People say no sin must enter heaven, it must all be purged/forgiven. Yet in truth, according to where the bar is set not to commit sin, believers regretfully sin every day.
Its irrelevant anyway as your flesh cannot enter Heaven and you sin in your flesh.
The pharisees of Jesus day, who lived according to an inflexible literalistic rulebook did not understand the message the letter contained, they neglected the love of God, and showed no love to their neighbour either. They were arrogant, believing they understood better than the people. Has anything changed in 2,000 years?
What is it I have suppose to have lied about? Your the one making the accusation. Bring your receipts, not your opinion.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
I was stating that we do not practice the laying on of hands for salvific purposes
BECAUSE the NT does NOT teach that we should.
We should, however, do everything else that Jesus commanded.
He commanded that we ACT on His words...His teachings.
You're going to have to show where the word RIGHTEOUSNESS is in either Matthew 7:24 or Matthew 7:26.
You like to add your own words to scripture to make it fit what YOU believe to be correct.
However, Jesus was very clear in what HE taught in Matthew.
Here it is again. Please show where Jesus says ANYTHING about righteousness.
Righteousness means BEING RIGHT WITH GOD.
HERE Jesus teaches HOW to be right with God:
Matthew 7:24-25 The Wise Man ACTS on Jesus' word.
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and [t]acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the [u]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
The rains came
The house did not fall
Because it was built on the Rock - Jesus
Jesus said: This was WISE MAN because he ACTED on the words of Jesus....
Matthew chapter 7 is part of the sermon on the mount...
Jesus taught HOW to belong to the Kingdom of God.
BY ACTING on His words throughout the Sermon.....the Beatitudes.
You're adding words again.
WHERE in Matthew 7:24-27 does Jesus say ANYTHING about true believers?
Nowhere.
It's taken for granted, MMD, that if we DO NOT BELIEVE, we are headed for hell.
Your idea of separating true belleivers from false one is moot since FALSE BELIEVERS ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN.
Your verses:
Matthew 15-20
It is NOT speaking about false believers...
It IS speaking about false prophets.
False prophets are that that DO NOT TEACH what Jesus taught.
It's those that take the words of Jesus and try to change them to mean what the false prophet believes.
This is exactly what YOU do.
You are unable to read scripture plainly and accept what it states.
Matthew 7:24 The wise man whose house stands...ACTS on the words of Jesus.
That is all is states.
Actually, I AM considering all of scripture.
It's those that claim baptism is like taking a shower that DO NOT.
Jesus said to baptize.
He DID NOT mention anything about taking a shower.
It's almost blaspehmous to take this attitude.
To minimize to such a degree something our Savior commanded to do.
We are saved by calling on the name of Jesus.
We all agree.
Jesus told the Apostels to BAPTIZE....
Should they have ACTED on this,
or not??
Do we obey Jesus?
or not??
So, apparently, you believe the bible when it suits you.
Your verses:
Matthew 26:28 Jesus blood is poured out for forgiveness of sins.
EVERY Christian believes this.
Jesus died for the sins OF THE WORLD.
Without His death sins could NOT BE FORGIVEN.
HOW we accept the gift offered by Jesus is a different matter.
Without Jesus' death NO ONE IS SAVED.
Nothing to do with baptism.
Your verse:
Acts 26:18 To open the eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light....spoken to Paul.
Again:
EVERY Christian believes this.
Nothing to do with baptism.
Your verse:
Acts 22:16 Arise and be baptized....and wash away your sins.
Now, all of a sudden, Paul's teaching become "figurative".
So, tell us MMD,,,
Please advise WHICH of Paul's teachings are literal and which are figurative?
You'll have to make a list I think.
I was taught to believe ALL of the NT.
Maybe some teachings are figurative and we should know what they are ??
Why do you read articles?
Do you go to a church?
That church teaches that salvation is not necessary?
But Jesus said to do it.
Why would Jesus require us to do something that is FIGURATIVE?
Also, why do you not believe those that the Apostles taught
but you DO believe some guy that wrote an article??
However, I will give it a look and then come back.
I wish you'd learn how to use scripture...
but no matter.
You've listed a bunch of verses....
I'll do the same.
2 Kings 5:10, 14
Exodus 14:19, 28
1 cor 10:1-2
Ezekiel 36:25, 26, 27, 28
Titus 3:4-5
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:37-38, 40, 41
1 Peter 3:18-20, 21, 22
Acts 22:16
1 Cor 6:11
so many more.
What have I accomplished by LISTING (at least i made a list) verses?
NOTHING.
Because I haven't explained WHY I listed them.
This is also known as carpet bombing.....accomplishes nothing.
Peter said baptism washes sins away like water washes physical dirt away.
WHY question Peter or Jesus?
"Nothing you do takes away your sin"
I know it's not us but there is something we are told to do to remove our sins, what is it?
@mailmandan
Looked at the aritcle.
Same ole ideas.
Nothing new.
Not going to read all of it.
At least it states that it's the OPINION of the writer.
I respect him for that.
Maybe the wrod REGENERATE IS the best way to explain baptism.
We are forgiven immediately upon salvation.
The Holy Spirit descends on us.
Baptism is the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
He will DWELL within us.
This will cause regeneration...or the making new...of the person.
I make no claim to understand baptism completely...
but to say that it is figurative in nature is not correct because the NT
represents it as something real that happens.
Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
REPENT
BAPTISM
FORGIVENESS
HOLY SPIRIT
The order would seem to be:
REPENT
FORGIVENESS
BAPTISM
HOLY SPIRIT
Paul
Acts 22:16
16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Baptism
Calling on Jesus
I post the two to show that the ORDER is not always the same because the speaker was not conentration on the order.
However, baptism is included many times...
and only 1 or 2 or 3 times would be sufficient to teach that it IS necessary.
Looked at the aritcle.
Same ole ideas.
Nothing new.
Not going to read all of it.
At least it states that it's the OPINION of the writer.
I respect him for that.
Maybe the wrod REGENERATE IS the best way to explain baptism.
We are forgiven immediately upon salvation.
The Holy Spirit descends on us.
Baptism is the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
He will DWELL within us.
This will cause regeneration...or the making new...of the person.
I make no claim to understand baptism completely...
but to say that it is figurative in nature is not correct because the NT
represents it as something real that happens.
Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
REPENT
BAPTISM
FORGIVENESS
HOLY SPIRIT
The order would seem to be:
REPENT
FORGIVENESS
BAPTISM
HOLY SPIRIT
Paul
Acts 22:16
16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Baptism
Calling on Jesus
I post the two to show that the ORDER is not always the same because the speaker was not conentration on the order.
However, baptism is included many times...
and only 1 or 2 or 3 times would be sufficient to teach that it IS necessary.
Actually it IS about MUST.
I know that it's an uncomfortable word...
but it's what Jesus taught.
The LAWLESS are not going to make it to heaven.
The lawless are those who do not follow the law.
What law?
The law of Christ.
The commandments of Christ.
The Moral Commandments, the Ten Commandments.
All rolled into 2:
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
JESUS said:
Matthew 7:23
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Jesus DID state exactly who would make it to heaven:
Matthew 7: 21
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
And WHO does the will of the Father?
Those that obey jesus...
God has always demanded obedience.
All the more...
obedience to His Son.
Luke 11:28
28But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
James 1:22
22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
John 14:21
21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me.
1 Samuel 15:22
22And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.
Oh for goodness sakes Just....
Not replying to the theif on the cross.
No one on this board is hanging on a cross.
I'd like to stop hearing this argument.
As to communion and praying....
do we do it because Jesus said to?
How do we know for sure it does NOT remove sin?
When we pray we might be praying for someone that has hurt us.
Maybe it removes the sin of unforgiveness?
This can regenerate.
How do we know communionj does not regenerate?
It nourishes us..it is spiritual food.
No food...no life.
Somehow, even if we don't understand it, baptism forgives sin.
It's plainly stated.
We need to righty divide the word.
When the thief on the cross died, he died OT laws. Where people had to take a sacrifice to the high priests ones a year to have their sins forgiven GOD RULES.
JESUS is our high priest and he became our sacrifice our lamb.
When JESUS was on this earth and forgave sins as he wished like the thief.
JESUS preach app 3 years, died on the cross, buried and rose again. Then he ascended to Heaven to put his blood on the mercy seat.
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
He then returned to earth and was here app 40 days and ascended again commanding his disciples to wait because they will be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:3-4
He ascended the second time and this was the first message of how to be reborn.
Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Since then until he returns again, we live in NT laws and how to be saved we need to repent, get baptized in JESUS name to get rid of our sins and receive the Holy Ghost like JESUS gave his disciples in Acts 2:4.
J
James456
Guest
I would say:
Old covenant you MUST
New covenant, you WANT TO
Old covenant you MUST
New covenant, you WANT TO
What if I don't want to ?
Do we follow our wants?
Maybe God has helped one to forego sins but there's one the person just cannot let go of.
Does he stop trying and throw up his arms?
Or does he keep trying?
If he keeps trying...it means he understands that he MUST.
The NC did not change the obedience of the OC.
What has changed is the METHOD.
God still wants us to obey.
No change.
J
James456
Guest
When Jesus walked this earth, a baptism for the forgiveness of sins was in place, and, Jesus stated:
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit John3:5
However, Jesus still forgave people their sins and told them they had received salvation without firstly telling them they must be baptised in water.
I suppose it depends on whether we believe God can forgive people their sins today prior to them being baptised in water, does he have the right to do it as Jesus did when he walked this earth?
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit John3:5
However, Jesus still forgave people their sins and told them they had received salvation without firstly telling them they must be baptised in water.
I suppose it depends on whether we believe God can forgive people their sins today prior to them being baptised in water, does he have the right to do it as Jesus did when he walked this earth?
J
James456
Guest
You cant not want to. God Himself at conversion places what is written in applicable law in the hearts and minds of believers. Meaning, in your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart(the flesh is another matter) you want to live that way. Our hearts have been softened, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, we have been born again and are new creations
Under the old covenant, the Israelites had an external law, an external law does not mean you in your heart want to obey it. God said they were a stiff necked people who would soon desert Him when they reached the promised land, hence: You MUST.
Amen! And Ouch accuses me of writing a book. LOL!
Of course. Matthew 7:20 - and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. We also must not conflate what we are commanded to do in order to become saved with what we are commanded to do after we have been saved.
Do you not understand that those who hear the words of Jesus, puts them into practice, is like a wise man who built his house on the rock is 'descriptive' of those who are right with God? Do you also not understand that everyone who hears the words of Jesus and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand is 'descriptive' of the unrighteousness?
You conflate how one becomes righteous with how the righteous conduct their lives.
1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. See the contrast between children of God and children of the devil?
Do the righteous or the unrighteous act on the words of Jesus and build their house on the rock? Do the righteous or the unrighteous Do the righteous or the unrighteous not act on the words of Jesus and build their house on sand?
I'm adding nothing. I am simply pointing out the contrast between believers and make believers. Jesus also makes this contrast in Matthew 7:15-27. In verse 15, Jesus starts out by saying, beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Jesus goes on to say every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Jesus continues with, 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ These make believers had the wrong foundation. What was the will of the Father in Matthew 7:21 that they failed to accomplish? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
False prophets are also false teachers. Look where they ended up and it was not because they were genuine believers.
You just contradicted yourself and have now admitted that false prophets are false teachers. I'm not a false prophet and I'm also not trying to change the words of Jesus. So, are you calling me a false prophet and a false teacher and condemning me to hell?
I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You are trying to make scripture conform with salvation by works.
Shower or bath?
Yes, He did, but Jesus did not say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." Jesus did say whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)
Who said anything about a shower?
It's not about minimizing what Jesus commanded and it's also not about turning a symbol into a savior.
Amen! Romans 10:13 - For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Of course. I was baptized, but I was saved through faith in Jesus Christ and not by water baptism.
Sure we do and for the right reasons. I can't think of one Christian I know who came to believe the gospel and was saved then afterward, refused to be water baptized.
Straw man argument.
CONTINUED..
So, how we accept the gift seems to be the main focus of our disagreement. I believe we accept the gift through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) I believe we are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) You "add" baptism to that equation.
Nothing to do with baptism is correct. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism.
Yes, figurative, just like the words of Jesus in John 6:53-54 are figurative. Salvation by water baptism is in contradiction to salvation through faith. Salvation by water baptism is salvation by works.
Some teachings in the NT are literal and some teachings are figurative, as we just saw in John 6:53-54 and Acts 22:16. Do you believe that Jesus was teaching literal (cannibalism) in John 6:53-54?
Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
Yes.
My church teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, not works and so does the Bible. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Not everything Jesus said to do is a prerequisite for salvation. There are commands by Jesus for believers which follow "after" one has already been saved through faith.
The same reason why Jesus commanded us to eat His body and drink His blood (John 6:53-54) which is FIGURATIVE. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
I take what people write and test it in light of what scripture says. Neither the church fathers nor their writings are infallible.
Great!
You just carpet bombed me. LOL! I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In regard to Peter in 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished. So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20.