Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Ahwatukee]

It may well be that the type of treading the grapes is ALWAYS a reference to judgment.

Isa 63:1-6
Who is this that is come from Edom, with red garments from Bosor? thus fair in his apparel, with mighty strength? I speak of righteousness and saving judgment.
Wherefore are thy garments red, and thy raiment as if fresh from a trodden winepress?
I am full of trodden grape, and of the nations there is not a man with me; and I trampled them in my fury, and dashed them to pieces as earth, and brought down their blood to the earth.
For the day of recompence has come upon them, and the year of redemption is at hand.
And I looked, and there was no helper; and I observed, and none upheld: therefore my arm delivered them, and mine anger drew nigh.
And I trampled them in mine anger, and brought down their blood to the earth.

Yeah, I agree about the harvest of the grapes, as it is made obvious that this second harvest is referring to living people being thrown into the winepress of the wrath of God Almighty. But it is the first harvest that is not clear. We have the harvest/gathering of the church prior to God's wrath, which I believe is represented in Rev.4:1. Then we have the gathering of the Male Child in Rev.12:5 where they are caught up to God and His throne. Then we have the great tribulation saints resurrected as stated in Rev.20:4-6, which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. So, who are those being harvested at that first harvest in Rev.14:15-16?

Until the Lord reveals the answer to this, I will not make a claim nor teach it, but will keep it in my spiritual cupboard until then.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes they are in heaven in rev 14. That means they are gathered as firstfruit Jews and are indeed declared firstfruits...correctly so.

So we do agree.

But AFTER that firstfruit gathering is main harvest.
That is a few sentences later.
A gathering of Jews by Jesus sitting on a cloud.

You are not understanding what I am saying. The 144,000 are mentioned, then in between that is the three angels flying overhead, each proclaiming something different. Then the information regarding the two harvests. If we the proper rules of grammar, then the first harvest is not referring to the 144,000, because other information was interjected after that information. In addition, it already demonstrates that the 144,000 are already in heaven standing with the Lamb on the heavenly Mount Zion.

What I am saying is that, the information about the 144,000 in Rev.14:1-5, is not linked to that first harvest in Rev.14:15-16. And as previously posted, the Male Child is a collective name symbolically representing the 144,000 who are caught up to God's throne in Rev.12:5 and which takes place in the middle of the seven years.

I will just continue to look for the Lord's enlightenment regarding who this first harvest of Rev.14:15-16 is referring to.

 

[Truth7t7]

Thanks for that.......very helpful.
You know I'm trying to determine with some kind of certainty when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. There's not a lot to go on. But Daniel chapter 12 seems to be the richest vein of Scriptural proof.

It's been a good day so far. I appreciate everyone's efforts thank you.

Daniel 12:1-2 Below, Is Nothing More Than A Parallel Teaching Of John 5:28-29 Below, The Last Day Resurrection Of All, The Book Of Life Is Open, "The Final Judgement" On "The Last Day"

Your Claims Of Multiple Resurrections Are (False) As Scripture Below Clearly Teaches

There Is "One" Future Resurrection Of "All", This Takes Place On "The Last Day" At The Time Of "Final Judgement"

How Long Will One Resist The Clear And Simple Truth Of Scripture?

(The Last Day Resurrection, Judgement)

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

(The Last Day Resurrection, Judgement)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(The Last Day Resurrection)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(The Last Day Judgement)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

We were led off track 2,000 years ago by Constantine who turned relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit who was sent to guide us in all truth, Christianity became "religion" based on the Roman model of government where the top person is venerated and people are to jump through hoops of rituals and practices to make themselves right with God, when we know that Jesus paid it all on the cross.

Yes Constantine did in fact establish the Roman Catholic State Church, a false religion using the name of Jesus Christ

Just as PowderDuelist stated the additional names below in America?

John Darby, which kind of makes me think of, Charles Russell, Charles Parham, Charles Finney, Joseph Smith, and Ellen White

 

[Truth7t7]

I wouldn't put Charles Parham in the same league as some of the others.

JW's Annihilationism In Denial Of A Literal Hell, British Israelism, 8 Days Of Creation And The White Man, Hertezl's Zionism, Darbys Pre-Trib Rapture?

Wikipedia: Charles F. Parham (June 4, 1873 – c. January 29, 1929) was an American preacher and evangelist. Together with William J. Seymour, Parham was one of the two central figures in the development and early spread of American Pentecostalism.

Other beliefs
Parham believed in annihilationism—that the wicked are not eternally tormented in hell but are destroyed. According to this belief, immortality is conditional, and only those who receive Christ as Lord and Savior will live eternally. He stated in 1902, "Orthodoxy would cast this entire company into an eternal burning hell; but our God is a God of love and justice, and the flames will reach those only who are utterly reprobate".[5] He also believed in British Israelism, an ideology maintaining that the Anglo-Saxon peoples were among the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.[7] In addition, Parham subscribed to rather unorthodox views on creation. He believed God took two days to create humans—non-whites on the sixth day and whites on the eighth.[38] Parham also supported Theodor Herzl and the struggle for a Jewish homeland, lecturing on the subject often.

Legacy

Oneness Pentecostals would agree with Parham's belief that Spirit baptized (with the evidence of an unknown tongue) Christians would be taken in the rapture. But his teachings on British Israelism and the annihilation of the wicked were vehemently rejected.[19]

All Apostolic Faith Movement Minister's were Baptized in Jesus name by Charles F. Parham including Howard Goss, First Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church International. After a vote, out of approximately 430 Minister's, 133 were asked to leave because the majority ruled they would maintain the Catholic Baptism of the Trinity as the official Baptism of the Assemblies of God. This move formally sparked the creation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, which would eventually create the United Pentecostal Church International and the Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[GaryA]

Gary I believe you deny that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11, are Literal prophets returned, that will wear literal sackcloth, that will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world, that will have literal bodies that die, and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem?

Oh, no - absolutely not - I believe they are definitely a - very literal - two men - and always have...

 

[GaryA]

Yes there is very strong reason to believe that that the "first resurrection" so-called consists of A MINIMUM of 3 groups.......

There is very strong reason to believe that - if you simply "take the Bible at its Word" - you will understand that the "first resurrection" is just exactly that - no more and no less...

Don't try to "invent" anything - just accept what it actually says. Don't add. Don't take away. Just believe.

 

[GaryA]

Historical view is intellectually dishonest.
Observe the absurditys by that camp "explaining" the flying scorpions, the hailstones of fire, and the mark of the beast.

Almost comical

That is not the historical view. Those things are still yet future.

That comes from the full-preterist view, does it not?

 

[Truth7t7]

There is very strong reason to believe that - if you simply "take the Bible at its Word" - you will understand that the "first resurrection" is just exactly that - no more and no less...

Don't try to "invent" anything - just accept what it actually says. Don't add. Don't take away. Just believe.

Exactly!

The "First Resurrection" is just that, and nothing more.

There will be "Two Resurrections" on "The Last Day" the righteous are "Blessed" to be in the "First Resurrection" unto life

1.) The "First" to eternal life

2.) The "Second" to eternal damnation

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Absolutely]

Just to let you know I don't agree with absolutely everything in the link that I provided.
For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows.

BTW...Matthew states very clearly that their bodies were resurrected right after the crucifixion death event, at the same time of the splitting of the temple veil. But these showed themselves to many in Jerusalem only after the resurrection of Christ.....very curious.

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They were raised AFTER the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[GaryA]

Great great great great tribulation.
Lol

Do you really think tribulation is that great?

(haha)

Never really cared for it myself...



Or, are you referring to:

tribulation...
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
. . .

 

[Absolutely]

"[re: resurrection] But EACH [Hekastos G1538 (a word meaning, "of MORE THAN TWO")] in his own ORDER [tagmati G5001 (a word meaning, "rank, division, an ordered series")]" 1 Corinthians 15:23.

What does "EACH in his own RANK / an ordered SERIES" mean, in this context? (that only ONE is yet remaining?? ["one RANK"??])


[links]
-- Strong's Greek: 1538. ἕκαστος (hekastos) -- each, every (biblehub.com)
-- Strong's Greek: 5001. τάγμα (tagma) -- that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank (biblehub.com)


And why are the "2W" resurrected at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology, at a time-slot distinct from all others??




"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the FIRST" (i.e. "the resurrection OF LIFE"), Rev20:6, is not saying "at this point in the chronology is the FIRST TIME anyone's been 'resurrected'," ... because the "2W" will have ALREADY been resurrected BEFORE this point in the chronology. (yet, THEY TOO are "having A PART IN the resurrection, the FIRST" b/c they ascend up into Heaven, a thing not experienced by the "unsaved/lost" )

Not only that it would be rediculous to have a resurrection of beheaded saints if the postrib rapture adherents say the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens at the end of the trib.(which would have pre ,mid ,and post trib believers resurrected automatically.

Rev 20 is pointing to a specific group....and that group is 1st resurrection INCLUSIVE.
IOW a part of the 1st group (firstfruits) with other parts, rev 20 and 1 thes 4, INCLUSIVE

 

[Absolutely]

Do you really think tribulation is that great?

(haha)

Never really cared for it myself...



Or, are you referring to:

tribulation...
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
. . .

Jesus originated it.

I am just a reporter

 

[Absolutely]

The tribulation definitely accelerates in severity and frequency. I can't believe that any Christian would choose to believe that they need to go through it when they are promised that they won't.

Such is the state of the Sardis/Laodicean Church of today I suppose. Totally clueless. I can't tell you how many rank-and-file pastors I've dealt with recently that have no idea.....absolutely no concept of end time eschatology. In fact according to them life and Christianity is all about here and now. And is getting worse the present day Church generally speaking refuses to deal with end time eschatology at all. No warnings to be vigilant at all times to watch as Jesus says. No exhortation to be at all times prepared for His soon coming.

Nope.....None of that scary stuff. It's just a big party nowadays. A party at Jesus' expense.

Incredible really. Incredibly tragic. Incredibly fearful that so many will not be ready when Jesus comes at a time they do not expect. And the door is shut on the five foolish virgins.

Jesus said "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."

I do that regularly

 

[Absolutely]

Just to let you know I don't agree with absolutely everything in the link that I provided.
For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows.

BTW...Matthew states very clearly that their bodies were resurrected right after the crucifixion death event, at the same time of the splitting of the temple veil. But these showed themselves to many in Jerusalem only after the resurrection of Christ.....very curious.

Quote ; "For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows."

Jesus descended and preached to those in prison.
That is the gospel given to the ot saints.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus said "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."

I do that regularly

No need to pray about escaping the coming hour of earth's temptation, the Lord Jesus Christ has spoke his protection below, (Truth)

Enter your dwelling, shut the door, until the indignation is past, Just like the passover in Egypt, Awesome!

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[cv5]

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They were raised AFTER the resurrection of Jesus.

Actually that is my belief as well and has been for decades. They rose after Christ's resurrection and entered Jerusalem.

However......

I just happened to come across this alternative reading lately. Very intriguing. I would not start building doctrine on it however. I can't cut and paste this on my TV but please read it if you're interested. Its actually very good and has some interesting insights....

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/split-rocks-open-tombs-raised-bodies

 

[cv5]

Quote ; "For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows."

Jesus descended and preached to those in prison.
That is the gospel given to the ot saints.

Yes that is one view. I don't happen to agree with it.
I believe that this is actually the holding cell for the wicked rebellious angels
of Gen 6 - Jude1:6 et.al.

 

[GaryA]

My friend I have seen nothing whatsoever to convince me in the least.......that there is an alternative to a pre-trib rapture. The case is so overwhelming that it is quite frankly breathtaking in terms of boilerplate doctrine.

Tragically nobody understands the patterns. The Old Testament patterns vs the book of Revelation. The fact that chapter 6 and beyond is the fulfillment of the OT Day of the Lord.

The fact that there is not one scrap or scintilla of textual evidence that the Church is anywhere beyond chapter 5.

The fact that the Church is nowhere alluded to in Matthew 24 Mark 13 or Luke 21.
For the simple reason that the Day of the Lord does not affect the Church in the least.

The complete breakdown of the understanding of the difference between the Day of Jesus Christ (a mystery revealed and FULLY EXPLAINED by Paul in Ephesians ch 3) and the Day of the Lord.

The unequivocal reality that the Day of Jesus Christ (the Day of Grace) has a distinct beginning (Pentecost) and a distinct ending (the Rapture).

The woeful misunderstanding of how the Jewish wedding ceremony parallels the Church to perfection. A parallelism that Jesus Himself testifies to again and again and again and Paul amplifies and explains.

I can say more so much more but this is impossible on a mere message board.

In my opinion the doctrine of the Rapture is one of the most substantially supportable in all of the Bible. I hear the same old worn out arguments to the contrary.....all of which are rooted in ignorance deception and denial.

Is far as I'm concerned the doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture is a wrap. Done and done with no wiggle room. No alternative. No contender. In fact his time goes on I become even more resolute because the alternative arguments that I hear are so pathetic.

And my assessment has absolutely nothing to do with Darby or anybody else.

I certainly don't have the time to unpack and explain all of the error contained in this one post...

So - let me just say - start with this:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

It should help you to understand that all of the 'day of' phrases are taking about the same 'event'.

 

[GaryA]

I will explain this:
Daniel ch 9......the 70th week.....pertains only to Israel. A fact which the book of Revelation makes clear.

This 'fact' is more true than you [even] realize - considering that the 70th week ended in 34 A.D. And, the passage itself (Daniel 9) makes it (the 'fact') exceedingly clear.

The book of Revelation makes no mention of it.