Z
zackabba
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My point is that I do believe Jesus is God, but that He is not the Father in person.
jesus is not God
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My point is that I do believe Jesus is God, but that He is not the Father in person.
YOU SAY "God the Father came in the Flesh of His Son God the Father and Jesus r not two seperates but the same". The fact is, nowhere in Scripture will you ever find this said. These are simply YOUR words and not the inspired prophetic word of FATHER Yahweh. You will not find in Scripture such a statement proceeding from the mouth of Father Yahweh Whose every word we are to live by nor will you find this statement proceeding from the mouth of Yahshua, FATHER Yahweh's SON. In fact, this statement does not even make the least bit of sense, since any simpleton knows that one can not be their own father and that one cannot be their own son.
Yes, Yahshua is the Messiah THE SON OF THE LIVING YAHWEH (in completion of what we are to believe and confess). The word 'messiah' means 'anointed' and it was his and our FATHER Yahweh that anointed His SON Yahshua to reign as King for 1,000 years. If Yahshua were Yahweh ["God"], why would he need to be anointed to reign as King when Yahweh has been King for all eternity? FATHER Yahweh did not anoint Himself to reign as King, but anointed His SON to reign as King.
Actually, 1 Timothy 3:16 does not say "God was manifest in the flesh ...", but let's assume for a moment that this does say this. It seems that you believe that the word phrase 'manifest in the flesh' would mean 'transformed into the flesh'. It doe not. The word 'manifest' means 'revealed' or 'made known'. Then this would in fact be saying that FATHER Yahweh was revealed or made known in the flesh and not that FATHER Yahweh ["God"] or His SON Yahshua was transformed in the flesh. It would be a nice thought and certainly in accordance with Scripture that FATHER Yahweh was made known in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His SON Yahshua. This would be in accordance with Scripture in that Yahshua (FATHER Yahweh's SON) is the agent by which FATHER Yahweh has made Himself AND HIS WORD known to mankind. All through the Scripture this is one of the means by which FATHER Yahweh has revealed or made His word known to mankind THROUGH (BY WAY OF) spokesmen (prophets) as is clearly stated in Hebrews 1:1-2. FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua is the spokesman (Prophet) of his and our FATHER Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 also makes perfectly clear. The so-called "New Testament" clearly teaches that Yahshua (FATHER Yahweh's SON) is our mediator, intercessor, and advocate with FATHER Yahweh and is the spokesman of His word in this last time period. FATHER Yahweh did not transform Himself into flesh as an embryo in Marriam's womb. He caused her to become pregnant with child. Note that Yahshua (FATHER Yahweh's SON) "... grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with Yahweh and men (Lukyah 2:52). If Yahshua was Yahweh, why would He need to "... [grow] in wisdom and stature, and in favor with [HIMSELF] ...? Do you mean to tell me that you truly believe that FATHER Yahweh had to become as a little child, was not all wise and had to become wise and in favor with Himself? Poppycock! Scripture time and time again says and teaches that He sent His SON into the world. It does not say and teach that He Himself came or sent Himself into the world as a little child. What foolishness!
Now, going back to my assertion that 1 Timothy 3:16 does NOT say "'God' was manifest in the flesh, ...", I would like you to note how other translators translate this verse by clicking on the following hyper linked text:
1 Timothy 3:16
Note that you will not find the word "God" in a number of these translations. There is a sound reason for these various translators not translating this verse with the word "God" in it as I would like you to note in the following hyper linked study on this verse:
1 Timothy 3:16 - The Trinitarian Claim
Although I have never said in any of my post here "Yahshua was created." and nowhere in the article that I posted by Voy Wilks does he ever say "Yahshua was created.", I myself believe that Yahshua was a product of FATHER Yahweh's creation just as you and I are a product of FATHER Yahweh's creation. Yahshua, or any of mankind that came into existence in existence in this time period are a DIRECT creation of FATHER Yahweh, but are a are a product of His creation. It is only in this sense that the rest of mankind after FATHER Yahweh created the first male and female are a creation of FATHER Yahweh. The first "Adam" (mankind - male and female; cf. Genesis 1:27 & 5:2) were the only ones of mankind that were a DIRECT creation of Father Yahweh. All the rest of mankind are simply a product of the first created beings, since FATHER Yahweh told them to be fruitful and multiply. Their multiplying was by means of their having sexual intercourse and not by means of FATHER Yahweh creating the rest of mankind DIRECTLY. Yahshua (FATHER Yahweh's SON) was also BORN (or begotten) a man through the womb of Marriam and was not a DIRECT creation of FATHER Yahweh.
There are some 107 Scripture verses and passages that proclaim that FATHER "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF" with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" created the heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Nowhere in the so-called "New Testament" will you ever find Yahshua recorded as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, You will only find Yahshua recorded in this section of Scripture as crediting his and our FATHER Yahweh for creating.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
love you Dave, want some cookies? they are my favorite
oh and I agree. the more I learn of God and read His words from the Bible and listen to others talk about God and talk about God with them and pray with my brothers and sisters and even alone. the closer I feel to God and following that upward calling.
Cookies mmmm yes!! Thank you so much for your encouragement Ananda. I also enjoy your postings as you often have a point of view that I hadn't thought of.
I think that we often forget how much we need each other in the body of Christ. We learn so much from each other.
One of the teachers at my church got up to speak one day and said, "Jesus loves you, and I'm learning to." Isn't that right on the money? The more we walk in Jesus' footsteps, the more like Him we become, in everything.
Save a couple of those cookies for me!! You're the best!
J
Jenna
Guest
Really good, scriptural picture of the Trinity is Jesus' baptism. Jesus on the earth, being baptised by John the baptist, God the Father speaking from heaven, "This is my beloved Son..." and the Holy Spirit descending LIKE a dove...
I have only quoted the philosophies of men by saying "Jesus IS God!". Nowhere in ANY translation of Scripture will you ever find such a QUOTE as this. This is most certainly a false doctrine, since you will not find this doctrine in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness.
A
AnandaHya
Guest
Who is John referring to in these verses?
John 1
New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
John 8:18
I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
John 1
New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
John 8:18
I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
Who Raised Yahshua From The Dead?
By Voy Wilks
11/12/2003
The question has been asked: Who raised Yahshua from the dead, from the grave?. Was it Yahshua himself, or was it Yahweh the heavenly Father? Thhree Scriptures seem to indicate Yahshua raised himself, with no help from anyone. Let us examine these Scriptures.
Did Yahshua Raise Himself From the Grave?
Three Scriptures
(1) "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. The Jews then said, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it in three days? But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this and they believed ..." (John 2:19-22, RSV).
(2) "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. ... I lay down my life for the sheep. ... For this reason the Father loves me because, I lay down my life, that I may take it again" (John 10:15-17).
(3) "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father" (John 10:18).
Apparently these three Scriptures are the only ones that seem to say Yahshua raised himself. Listed below are twenty-three Scriptures which clearly report that Yahweh raised Yahshua from the dead. What should we do in this case? We should always accept the clear-cut Scriptures in preference to those which are not so clear. Now to comment:
We notice in John 2:19-21, Yahshua spoke in a parable, apparently to frustrate his Jewish enemies.
John 10:17, standing alone, is not conclusive. If Yahweh raised Yahshua from the dead, as reported by twenty-three Scriptures listed below, then Yahshua, because of the Father's promise, could "take up his life again." And what was Yahweh's promise? That Yahshua would not suffer any decay but would be raised from the grave the third day (Acts 2:25-28). Yahweh would not allow Hades to continue holding Yahshua, proof that Yahshua did not raise himself.
John 10:18, as it reads in the KJV and the RSV, appears to be conclusive. Yahshua raised himself. But wait. Let us consult other versions. We hardly want a statement which conflicts with the twenty-three Scriptures listed below.
The understanding seems to lay in the Greek word exousia, here translated power in the KJV. Young's Concordance shows 29 times that exousia is translated authority. Authority is the word which appears in many English versions the past 200 years (John 10:18). Now note the difference this makes.
* "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father" (John 10:18, NIV).
* "For this reason my Father loves me, because I am laying down my life to receive it back again. No one takes it away from me, but I myself am laying it down. I am authorized to lay it down, and I am authorized to take it back again. This is the command I received from my Father" (John 10:17,18, Weymouth Version).
Comment: If Yahweh commands, it will be done. Yahshua arose from the dead at Yahweh's command. Someone authorized Yahshua to do these things. Who was this? Obviously, it was Yahweh, the Father. So it appears that Yahshua did not raise himself from the dead.
* "As for the Father, he does indeed love me, and this because I lay down my life, doing so that I may take it afterwards. No one takes it away from me. I lay it down of my own free will. I have been given the right to lay it down and I have been given the right to take it up again afterwards. This is the charge I have received from my Father" (John 10:17,18, Cassirer Version).
Question: Who gave Yahshua this right? It must have been Yahweh.
Here is a list of only some of the versions of the Scriptures which agree with the NIV, Weymouth and Cassirer Versions. Not power to rise, but authorized to rise from the dead.
New American Standard Bible
Wuest Version
The Diaglott, By Ben Wilson
Knox Version
New English Bible
New Century Version
The Beck Version
The Koster Bible
Young's Literal Translation
Berkeley Version
Good News Bible
Ferrar Fenton Version
New World Translation
Charles B. Williams Version
The James Duncan Version
The Emphasized Bible
The Norlie Version
Did Yahweh (the heavenly Father) Raise Yahshua?
Twenty-three Scriptures
* "But Yahweh raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death ... (Acts 2:24, RSV).
* "... he [David] foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned in Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Yahshua Yahweh raised up, and of that we are all witnesses" (Acts 2:31,32).
* "... and you killed the author of life, whom Yahweh raised from the dead" (Acts 3:15).
* "... be it known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Yahshua Messiah of Nazareth, whom you impaled, whom Yahweh raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well" (Acts 4:10).
* "The Elohim of our fathers raised Yahshua whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. Yahweh exalted him at his right hand ... (Acts 5:30).
* "They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but Yahweh raised him on the third day ..." (Acts 10:40).
* "... they took him down from a tree and laid him in a tomb, but Yahweh raised him from the dead ..." (Acts 13:30).
* "We bring you good news that what Yahweh promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Yahshua ..." (Acts 13:32,33).
* "And as for the fact that he [Yahweh] raised him [Yahshua] from the dead, no more to return to corruption, ..." (Acts 13:34).
* "But he whom Yahweh raised up saw no corruption" (Acts 13:37).
* "But now he [Yahweh] commands all men everywhere to repent because he [Yahweh] has appointed and of this he [Yahweh] has given assurance to all men by raising him [Yahshua] from the dead" (Acts 17:3).
* "It will be reckoned to us who believe in him [Yahweh] who raised from the dead Yahshua our Master who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).
* "so that, as the Messiah was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4).
* "If the spirit of him [Yahweh] who raised Yahshua from the dead dwell in you, he [Yahweh] who raised the Messiah Yahshua from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, ..." (Romans 8:11).
* "...if you confess with your lips that Yahshua is Master and believe in your heart that Yahweh raised him [Yahshua] from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).
Question: Do you want to be saved? Then you must believe it was Yahweh who raised Yahshua from the dead. Two separate parties: one in the grave, and one who raised him.
Webmaster's Note: FATHER Yahweh is immortal. He is The Eternal and Everlasting FATHER. He can not and will never die. His SON Yahshua was born a mortal being, can die and did die by being executed by mere men. It would be quite impossible for mere men to execute FATHER Yahweh by nailing Him to a pagan cross or by any other means of execution. FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua has been raised from the dead by his and our FATHER Yahweh and is now an immortal being that sits exalted at his and our FATHER Yahweh's right hand (Acts 5:30). Also, pay very close attention to the following concluding verses:
* "And Yahweh raised Yahshua and will also raise us up by his power" (1 Cor. 6:14).
* "... if the Messiah has not been raised then our preaching is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting Yahweh because we testify of Yahweh that he [Yahweh] raised the Messiah, ..." (1 Cor. 15:14,15).
* "... knowing that he [Yahweh] who raised the Master Yahshua will raise us also and bring us with you in his presence ..." (2 Cor. 4:14).
* "Paul an apostle, not from man nor through man, but through Yahshua Messiah and Yahweh the Father who raised him [Yahshua] from the dead ..." (Gal. 1:1).
* "the working of his [Yahweh's] great might which he accomplished in the Messiah when he [Yahweh] raised him [Yahshua] from the dead, and made him [Yahshua] sit at his [Yahweh's] right hand ..." (Eph. 1:20).
* "... and you were buried with him [Yahshua] in baptism, in which you were also raised with him [the Messiah] through faith in the working of Yahweh who raised him [Yahshua] from the dead" (Col 2:12).
* "... how you turned to Yahweh from idols to serve a true and living Elohim, and to wait for his son [Yahshua] from heaven whom he [Yahweh] raised from the dead, Yahshua who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thes. 1:10).
* "Through him you have confidence in Yahweh, who raised him [Yahshua] from the dead and gave him [Yahshua] glory ..." (1 Peter 1:21).
Conclusion
Yahweh the Father raised Yahshua from the dead (the grave, Hades). Yahshua had faith that he would not see corution, but would be raised by the Father on the third day. He could have backed out at any time, but he did not. Remember his agony in the garden? "If possible, let this cup pass from me." He went through death, and rose again to save you and me, and to give us the gift of Yahweh - Eternal life in Yahshua Messiah (Romans 6:23). Praise Yahweh and his son Yahshua the Messiah for their wonderful love and their wonderful deeds. Halleluyah.
SOURCE
Following is a related article:
Did Jesus Raise Himself From the Dead?
A Restoration Light Publication
Actually, this passage for the most part is not in reference to a "who", but to the word of FATHER Yahweh which is an 'it'. The only reference to a "Who" would be where it says "... and the Word was God." Note that this does not say that the word was "Jesus". The word "God" is in reference to FATHER Yahweh, and not to His SON Yahshua. Note how the following translation refer to FATHER Yahweh's word as an 'it':
Compare The Following Translation Of John 1
1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
2. “The worde ... All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word ... through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom ... All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word ... All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
14. “The Word ... All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
22. “The word ... the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God ... He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
30. “In the beginning God expressed Himself ... That personal expression, that word ... He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began ... He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom ... everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992
SOURCE
Yahshua The Light
By Voy Wilks
5/14/02
Yahshua the Messiah is indeed referred to as the light of the world (John 1:7-9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35; Luke 2:32). Does this mean he pre-existed?
John the Baptist came as a light to bear witness to a greater light (St. John 1:7-9).
"... a burning and a shining light" (John 5:35, KJV).
Does this mean that John the Baptist pre-existed?
"Ye <<the disciples of Yahshua>> are the light of the world ... Let your light so shine ..." (Mt. 5:14-16).
Does this mean the disciples pre-existed? No. The glorious gospel of the Messiah is what brings light to Believers (2 Cor. 4:4). His disciples walk in the light because of faith in the Messiah Yahshua walked in the light because of his faith and the closeness to Yahweh, he light giver.
"For ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Messiah. Walk as children of the light" (Eph. 5:8).
"Ye <<brethren>> are all the children of light ..." (1 Thes. 5:5).
Yahshua was the greater light of all the prophets; the prophets who delivered the true message of the Most High to planet earth. He was not swayed by peer pressure. Even so, this does not indicate Yahshua pre-existed. When we study the word pre-exist. it basically means, he existed before he existed. Yahshua was like Moses (a man), a prophet in Israel.
"I <<Yahweh>> will raise up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee <<Moses>>, and will put my words in his mouth ..." (Deut. 18:15-18,19).
He was born of a woman, made under the law (Gal 4:4).
To believe that Yahshua pre-existed is only an assumption.
YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN
One Among Many Brethren
Hebrews 2:10-12
Voy Wilks
8/31/99
Some people seem to forget Moses promised that Yahweh would raise up a prophet "like unto me <Moses> from among your <Israel's> brethren" (Deut. 18:15). Was Moses a pre-existent deity? Were his brethren pre-existent deities? That Yahshua was not a pre-existent deity, but was one brother among many brethren is made clear in this and other Scriptures:
"For it was fitting that He <Yahweh>, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer <Yahshua> of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he <Yahshua> who sanctifies and those <other sons> who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he <Yahshua> is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, 'I will proclaim thy <Yahweh's> Name to my <Yahshua's> brethren, in the midst of the congregation. I <Yahshua> will praise thee <Yahweh> (Heb. 2:10-12, RSV).
Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, which means he did not pre-exist.
When we cry, 'Abba! Father!,' <Yahweh> it is the Spirit himself <Yahweh> bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of Yahweh, and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and fellow heirs with Yahshua, provided we suffer with him <Yahshua> in order that we might also be glorified with him" <Yahshua> (Rom. 8:15-17).
Think on these things.
Also see:
Is Yahshua "The Light"? (Part 1)
By J. Dean
Is Yahshua "The Light"? (Part 2)
By J. Dean
"Also, 24 words were added to 1 John 5:7, 8. How is it known these words were added? The King James translators did very well indeed. However, they were handicapped because the oldest manuscript available to them dated only to the tenth century C.E.* Since then many manuscripts have been found which date much earlier; to C.E. 325 or 350–600 years earlier than those used by the King’s Men. These older manuscripts do not contain the above mentioned additions. This means they crept in after C.E. 350, but before the King’s Men made their translation in 1611. After consulting the older manuscripts, most recent translators have not retained the added words named above."
* Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, page 6.
SOURCE
This verse is quite clear that there are two separate beings spoken of here (The FATHER and His SON) and not three.
Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That "Jesus is God"?
JPS version, done in 1917. The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text: A New Translation. Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America reads as follows:
"For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor (See END NOTE) -Abi-ad-sar-shalom."
The 1985, and the revised e-edition of 1997, render Is. 9:5b as:
"... he has been named "The Mighty God is planning grace (d);
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler."
(d) = as in 25:1
Many question why the the JPS 1917 transliterate this portion of the passage as opposed to translating it. The reason is quite obvious. Christian translations have traditionally understood this prophecy to refer to "Jesus", and then used this quite complicated name as a series of messianic titles. The JPS wanted to avoid
this, and to emphasize that this is a (real or symbolic) personal name. Just
like "Jonathan" is not translated "Yahweh-has-given" in the A.K.J.V. of the Bible. The A.K.J.V. does not translate "Immanuel" in 7:14 and etc. as "God-is-with-us".
For not having a better explanation of this passage, I have on a number of occasions in the past explained that the A.K.J.V. reads "... his name shall be CALLED ...", not that his name IS all of these names. This passage is worded in a future tense. Understanding this passage as a future prophecy concerning Yahshua, would this not stand true? Is he not given all of these attributive names/titles at this time? None of these are his GIVEN name (singular) though. There was only one name ("... for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN among men ..." Acts 4:12) GIVEN to him at birth.
A messenger ("malak, angel") of Yahweh conveyed to Yahseph [Joseph] that he was to call his name Yahshua and he did as the messenger of Yahweh had told him.
"And [Yahseph] knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name YAHSHUA. (Matthew 1:25)
The name Yahshua was GIVEN to him by Father Yahweh which was conveyed through His messenger.
"Wherefore Yahweh also has highly exalted him, and GIVEN him a name which is above every name: ..." (Philippians 2:9)
Father Yahweh Is Our Supreme Redeemer
The Name YAHshua means 'YAHweh Is Redeemer'. Yahshua came in the Name of our Heavenly Father and Creator (Yahchanan [John] 5:43). Father Yahweh is our Supreme Redeemer THROUGH his son Yahshua. Yahshua said "No man comes unto the Father, but by me." (Yahchanan [John] 14:6). Yahshua is our advocate with Father Yahweh (1 John 2:1). He is our mediator with Father Yahweh (I Timothy 2:5).
END NOTE
The Hebrew for "mighty god" in Isaiah 6:9 is gibbor el, which is nearly the same Hebrew as the name of the angel Gabriel.
The Net Bible has this interesting note on the title gibbor el ("mighty God"):
"probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Since this title is apparently used later (10:21, but cf. Hos. 3:5) for God, some have understood it as pointing to the king's deity. Others argue that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see Hayes and Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). The latter sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. Having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth. Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Ramses II as follows: "No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique." (See M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67) Isa. 9:6 probably envisions a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king's enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself."
Notice that the NetBible scholars are Trinitarians, yet they are realistic and fair minded enough to recognize that gibbor el is not a title of deity. Other scholars agree.
Actually, the passage is not a particularly good one for Trinitarians. It would help the Oneness folks a lot more. The Trinitarian does not regard Jesus as the Father, yet the passage says he shall be called "everlasting father." The Trinitarian has to do all sorts of twisting to insist that "gibbor el" should be taken as telling us that Jesus is God, but then the next phrase they have to explain away to tell us that he is not the Father.
The following article was obtained from the Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day):
THE MIGHTY EL - THE EVERLASTING FATHER
Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Ever lasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (KJV).
It seems that the Name which was to be given to Yahshua, the Son of Yahweh the Father, is a descriptive Name or Title which honors Yahweh. The Messiah came "in his Father's Name" (John 5:43). Below are quotations from several versions of the Bible which help to make clear the meaning of Isa. 9:6.
(Some versions number it as verse 5).
The Complete Bible, By Smith and Goodspeed.
"For a child is born to us; and the government will be upon his shoulders; and his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace.'"
Knox Version
"For our sakes a child is born, to our race a son is given, whose shoulder will bear the septre of princely power. What name shall be given him? Peerless among counsellors, the mighty God, Father of the world to come, the Prince of peace."
The Emphasised Bible
"... And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, * Father of Futurity **, Prince of Prosperity."
* Footnote by the translator: "el gibbor, as in chapter 10:21".
** "Father of Progress".
The Holy Scriptures, by The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelpheia; 1917, 1945, 1955.
"... And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi--ad-sar--slalom." ***
*** Footnote by the translator: "That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace."
Holy Bible - Catholic Layman's Edition, Catholic Press Inc., Chicago; 1964.
"... and his name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."
Douay-Rheims Version
"... and his name shall be called, Wonderful Counsellor God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."
The LeeserVersion"His name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor of the mighty El, of the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, ..."This Son was to be given names (or titles) which describe, honor and extol the heavenly Father in his exulted position. It is not that every one of these names describe the person and attributes of the Son to be born. Take the name Eliyah. The meaning is, "Yah is El." This does not mean that Eliyah was El. Instead, Eliyah describes and reveals who Yahweh is; Yahweh is El. Many other names could be cited. So it is with Isa. 9:6. These names describe the grandeur and glory which the heavenly Father is entitled to receive.The following was excerpted from: Seek What Is Truth – Is Yahshua the Son of God or Is He Not? - Part V
Isaiah 9:6: “His Name Shall be Called”
Isa.9:6 reads, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
Take a long hard look at Isa 9:6. Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “Wonderful?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “Counselor?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “The mighty God?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “The everlasting Father?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “The Prince of Peace?” Not a one! Why is He never called the names Isaiah said He would be called? Take another long hard look and you will see the word NAME, not names. It is a single name! Oneness, many times have pointed this out to Trinitarians when discussing Mt 28:19, so they should be well aware of the difference.
These five descriptive titles are not really five different names, but are instead, one long, multiple name. Here are a few versions of the Old Testament that recognize this.
The Complete Bible, by Smith and Goodspeed.
“And his name will be called ‘Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace.’”
The Holy Scriptures, by The Jewish Publication Society of America.
“And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom.” Footnote by the translators: “That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.”
The Leeser Version
“His name is called, Wonderful, counselor of the mighty El, of the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”
It seems that this name that was given to Yahshua the Son is a descriptive name or title which honors Yahweh His Father. Not unusual since Yahshua, the Son’s name, also honors the Father, meaning Yahweh is salvation. Notice the Jewish Version above, by means of hyphens, fastens them all together into one name or title, which the Messiah is to wear. The attributes that are revealed in this title are ascribed to the Father because, as we’ve said many times, Yahweh accomplishes everything by and through His Son.
Other Links To Consider:
Isaiah 9:6 Explained
The Mighty God & Eternal Father
By Craig Bluemel
[PDF] Is Jesus “the Mighty God” in Isaiah 9.6?
by Servetus the Evangelical
YshaYaH (Isaiah) 9:6
Isaiah 9:6 The Trinity On Trial
Isaiah 9:6 The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father - A Restoration Light Publication
Isaiah 9:6 (No. 224) - Christian Churches of God
Why does Isaiah 9:6 call Jesus “Mighty God, Everlasting Father”?
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Isaiah 9 Not Jesus, but Hezekiah[/FONT]
Trinitarian Verses (part 1 of 4): “A Child Will Be Born To Us…Eternal Father, Prince of Peace”
In Isaiah 9:6 and the Old Testament Answering Christianity
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Actually, I do not have the time to present a study in my own words and why present a study in my own words when my beliefs have already been presented in a study by another that is in accordance with what it is that I believe and in accordance with what Scripture truly teaches?
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SantoSubito
Guest
Do you also observe the Law and Jewish feasts? Because I'm smelling non-trinitarian messianic Judaism.
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zackabba
Guest
It seems that if it was truly important to you that you would take the time out to defend your beliefs. I don't have all the time in the world either, but defending the deity of my Lord and my God Jesus Christ is a priority to me.
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theBibleisawsome
Guest
You know frank4Yahweh u can insult me call me whatever u wish even say im teaching false doctrine and im not gonna retaliate to u its very easy to call names and fight but im not gonna call u anything bad ur still my brother n I love u im just go.NA say one more thing to u about why I believe Jesus is God im sure u won't like it and don't even care about what im saying but ima say it when Stephen was stoned he looked up to heaven n said I see Jesus at the rght hand of God people read that and say Oh thats meaning that God and Jesus r different n separate from each other when really its telling u that Jesus is God let me explain in human terminology when we say this is my right hand man we r saying that person has the power Jesus said all power has been given unto me he didn't say a little power or some power he said all power when Stephen looked up and said he sees Jesus. At the right hand of God he's not saying I see God and Jesus standing next to him he's saying I see Jesus standing in heaven and he's in full power he sees him alone noone next to him because he is the one n only the first and the last the beginning n the end who was dead but is alive forever more he that which was which is and which is to come I know u don't believe what im saying but im not mad with u u can call me names or say im teaching false doctrine but thats ok im not gonna get mad at u or CAll u anything back or say ur teaching false doctrine im gonna let God handle everything and let him judge and hope he sheds his mercy on us im not mad at u n I don't hate u I can't control how u feel God Bless u brother
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endtimes12
Guest
I have one thing to say, and that is that the" cults" all say that Jesus was not God, that in itself ought to raise red flags! the JW's and mormans all deny that Jesus is God! why is that? because they want you to believe they have to answer to your sin! only God can forgive sin! not sure where that is but anyway it is clear in scripture that Jesus is fully God!
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StMichaelTheArchangel
Guest
I know, why are we even having this conversation? This heresy was already destroyed by the Church of Christ in the 4th Century. But it was a very insidious heresy that almost was accepted by the whole Church.
I've got to hurry back to my Orthodox Church Teachings before I get,
"Tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Ephesians 4:14)
Ephesians 4:14, this verse sums it up very well what these evil teachers are trying to do, "lie in wait to deceive".
Being a member of the "Ground and Pillar of the Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), we have no need to be shaken by demonic teachings like these, for there is the Unity of the Faith in my Church.
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StMichaelTheArchangel
Guest
ALL OF THESE TRANSLATIONS ARE FROM THE 16TH CENTURIES ON. SHOW ME ANCIENT MANUSCRIPTS WHICH SAYS THAT JESUS IS AN "IT" AND MAYBE YOU WILL HAVE A LITTLE SAND SUPPORT YOUR TEACHING ON.
You know frank4Yahweh u can insult me call me whatever u wish even say im teaching false doctrine and im not gonna retaliate to u its very easy to call names and fight but im not gonna call u anything bad ur still my brother n I love u im just go.NA say one more thing to u about why I believe Jesus is God im sure u won't like it and don't even care about what im saying but ima say it when Stephen was stoned he looked up to heaven n said I see Jesus at the rght hand of God people read that and say Oh thats meaning that God and Jesus r different n separate from each other when really its telling u that Jesus is God let me explain in human terminology when we say this is my right hand man we r saying that person has the power Jesus said all power has been given unto me he didn't say a little power or some power he said all power when Stephen looked up and said he sees Jesus. At the right hand of God he's not saying I see God and Jesus standing next to him he's saying I see Jesus standing in heaven and he's in full power he sees him alone noone next to him because he is the one n only the first and the last the beginning n the end who was dead but is alive forever more he that which was which is and which is to come I know u don't believe what im saying but im not mad with u u can call me names or say im teaching false doctrine but thats ok im not gonna get mad at u or CAll u anything back or say ur teaching false doctrine im gonna let God handle everything and let him judge and hope he sheds his mercy on us im not mad at u n I don't hate u I can't control how u feel God Bless u brother
I have never insulted you that I know of!
Oh no! Not the 'cult' word! In recent years many have come to used this word as an evil connotation when the true definition of this word itself does not give reference to anything evil. Please see my web page on this subject.
The reason many do not believe "Jesus IS God!" is simply because there is no such doctrine taught in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. Scripture clearly teaches us to confess and believe that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh, not "Jesus IS God!". Nowhere in Scripture does it ever ask us to confess believe such foolishness. Yahshua is never recorded in the so-called "New Testament" as proclaiming to be "God". In fact, there is clear evidence in this section of the Scripture that no one at that time believed "Jesus IS God!", since Yahshua asked his disciples " Whom do men say that I the son of man am?" and as you will note none of them responded saying 'Some say that you are "God".'
When Yahshua came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the son of man am? And they said, Some say that you are Yahchanan the Immerser: some, Yliyah; and others, Yeremyah, or one of the prophets. He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? And Simon Kepha answered, You are the Messiah, the SON of the living Yahweh. And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simeon Bar Yahnah: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but MY FATHER Who IS IN HEAVEN. And I say also unto you, That you are Kepha, and upon this rock [the solid rock foundational belief that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh] that I will build my assembly; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it (Mattithyah [Matthew] 16:13-18).
{Emphasis of capitalization and words in brackets are mine.}
Note that Yahshua himself said that he was "the son of man". This is a Hebrewism that simply means that he was saying that he was 'a man' (cf. Yahchanan [John] 8:40 where Yahshua himself proclaims to be 'a man'). Note that Simeon Kepha did not acknowledge that Yahshua was the FATHER, but that he was the SON of the FATHER. Note also that Yahshua proclaims that Simeon Kepha is blessed in what he replied and Yahshua goes on to say that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, but that it was his and our FATHER Yahweh WHO IS IN HEAVEN that had revealed this to him.
One knows for a fact that Yahshua is FATHER Yahweh's SON, since he is frequently recorded as referring to Him as his and our FATHER WHO IN IN HEAVEN when he himself WAS HERE ON EARTH (or "IN THE WORLD").
There simply is no need for the ADDED (Revelation 22:18) confusing so-called "Holy Trinity" or "Twinity (Duality)" doctrines to understand such straight forward statements as these!
What Is A "Cult"?
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
"Jesus IS God!"?