Israel.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

hat is very interesting Rose,
I would want to look into it more deeply before responding at length.
You said "Under the old covenant God's people were determined by circumcision, not by ethnicity or race"
I think that is significant to the discussion here on how God defines Israel.

I welcome your comments.

I think it's important to the discussion to notice when Abraham became the first member of the people of God. It was the covenant of circumcision God made with him. It's the first time that God speaks with Abraham as being a part of a people. Circumcision defines the people of God. Physical then, spiritual now

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:10-14.​

 

[Beekeeper]

Many people refer to the jews as a whole. Which is why I pointed to the pharisees. We have pharisees in the church also.
Jesus never disclaimed the restoration of Israel when he was asked of the Apostles. Only that the timing was not to be revealed to them.
As I ask many people today who believe the church replaces Israel .....if I were to adopt some one do I become part of their family or do they become part of mine? Simple question.
Not that Christians become jews or jews become Christian but all are one in Christ Jesus. A people of God.
This so called modern day Israel has had to many prophetic events follow its birth in 1948 to be disclaimed as a forced political event in my opinion.

Speaking about the church replacing Israel is confusing language to me.
Who's church? Jesus' church?
Jesus IS Israel.
It is us Christians who have done all the replacing.
We have twisted His word so that He is no longer the the subject of our blessing, or the one that we expect to be blessed by.
We no longer see His first arrival in the prophets but attribute it all to a future Messiah.
All references to building of the second temple which God delighted in are attributed to a future third temple which is an abomination to God.
We recycle predictions of the post captivity restoration, pretending it never happened or assuming that the people of the time really cared about the affairs of 1948.
We twist and change history to fit the narrative.
We kill and displace millions, including Christians from their homes.
God never commanded Abraham to have a son with Hagar,
and God never commanded us to build a nation called Israel after our own understanding of the name.
We have replaced Jesus with an idol.
Galatians 4:22-31

 

[Gideon300]

There's no separate nation now. Read my post above yours. It's all one nation. The one you see over there now was created by unbelievers to fulfill their eschatology. Who are you following?

So the sun does not rise and there are no tides? You must be on another planet.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So the sun does not rise and there are no tides? You must be on another planet.

Those verses you like to quote (Jeremiah 31:35-36) are referring to the new covenant holy nation of God (Jeremiah 31:31-34) that has been in existence for nearly 2000 years and will last forever. The earthly nation you have your eyes on didn't exist for 1878 years, which completely invalidates your interpretation of that prophecy because it did cease to exist

 

[Gideon300]

Those verses you like to quote (Jeremiah 31:35-36) are referring to the new covenant holy nation of God (Jeremiah 31:31-34) that has been in existence for nearly 2000 years and will last forever. The earthly nation you have your eyes on didn't exist for 1878 years, which completely invalidates your interpretation of that prophecy because it did cease to exist

I'm getting annoyed now. Do you take stupid pills or something? Israel exists now, the sun and moon still do their thing, so you are wrong.

 

[Gideon300]

That is very interesting Rose,
I would want to look into it more deeply before responding at length.
You said "Under the old covenant God's people were determined by circumcision, not by ethnicity or race"
I think that is significant to the discussion here on how God defines Israel.




That is a summary of the pre-tribulation rapture line of interpretation.
I am inclined to think that the rapture and the destruction of world as we know it will all be one event.

You say: "Be glad, because Israel will suffer much during the great tribulation. I won't be here."
I would not be glad, because there is nobody of any race or religion living there that I actually hate.
I think I have a duty to call those that are outside Christ to repentance and faith.
The funny thing is that almost every modern Jew is well aware that Christian Zionists hold that belief, even as they "bless" Israel.
Those jews that are inclined toward Zionism also know that this "blessing" is indispensable to the survival of their state, because it comes in the form of much money and weapons.
They are forced to act friendly- however distasteful that may feel.
If you want to know how Israelis really feel about Christians, ask a christian Palestinian.

The repentance must start with us.
I do not believe that modern Israel could ever have been established without the support of Christian Zionists.
Yet Jesus, the king of Israel, never commanded this to be done.
Christians turned their back on Him, then did it in His name.
If Jesus now hears the cry of the children of Gaza, can we safely assume that He will blame it all 100% on "Hamas"?
Millions have been killed and displaced from their homes, including Christians, all for a psychotic extreme theology.
We should neither point our finger at Muslims or Jews for all of this.
They are in darkness, as once were we.
God's patience toward us is like His patience toward the Canaanites, like toward the Israelites when later they defied Him.
He gives many second chances, but in the end His anger is severe.
We need to repent of our idolatry before it is too late.
Bless Jesus and you will be blessed,
Curse Jesus and you will be cursed.

You are deceived. Never mind, the truth will out eventually.

 

[God-fearing]

That is very interesting Rose,
I would want to look into it more deeply before responding at length.
You said "Under the old covenant God's people were determined by circumcision, not by ethnicity or race"
I think that is significant to the discussion here on how God defines Israel.




That is a summary of the pre-tribulation rapture line of interpretation.
I am inclined to think that the rapture and the destruction of world as we know it will all be one event.

You say: "Be glad, because Israel will suffer much during the great tribulation. I won't be here."
I would not be glad, because there is nobody of any race or religion living there that I actually hate.
I think I have a duty to call those that are outside Christ to repentance and faith.
The funny thing is that almost every modern Jew is well aware that Christian Zionists hold that belief, even as they "bless" Israel.
Those jews that are inclined toward Zionism also know that this "blessing" is indispensable to the survival of their state, because it comes in the form of much money and weapons.
They are forced to act friendly- however distasteful that may feel.
If you want to know how Israelis really feel about Christians, ask a christian Palestinian.

The repentance must start with us.
I do not believe that modern Israel could ever have been established without the support of Christian Zionists.
Yet Jesus, the king of Israel, never commanded this to be done.
Christians turned their back on Him, then did it in His name.
If Jesus now hears the cry of the children of Gaza, can we safely assume that He will blame it all 100% on "Hamas"?
Millions have been killed and displaced from their homes, including Christians, all for a psychotic extreme theology.
We should neither point our finger at Muslims or Jews for all of this.
They are in darkness, as once were we.
God's patience toward us is like His patience toward the Canaanites, like toward the Israelites when later they defied Him.
He gives many second chances, but in the end His anger is severe.
We need to repent of our idolatry before it is too late.
Bless Jesus and you will be blessed,
Curse Jesus and you will be cursed.

So your saying Zionism is a psychotic extreme theology? What is your definition of Zionism?

 

[Beekeeper]

So your saying Zionism is a psychotic extreme theology? What is your definition of Zionism?

Zionism is a particular type of replacement theology that replaces the Israel of God and the Biblical definition of Israel with an entirely different infrastructure, but bearing the same name "Israel".
The new infrastructure includes and excludes entirely different groups of people in its citizenship for entirely different reasons, not found in the Bible.
It also has different laws and a different national religion that follows a different god.
The adherents of this religion look forward to the coming of an entirely different messiah to replace the one found in the Bible.
Some of the effects of this infrastructure are listed in my last reply to you.

This is my own definition as you asked, I did not look anything up.
Can you please give me your definition of Zionism?

 

[Beekeeper]

I welcome your comments.

I think it's important to the discussion to notice when Abraham became the first member of the people of God. It was the covenant of circumcision God made with him. It's the first time that God speaks with Abraham as being a part of a people. Circumcision defines the people of God. Physical then, spiritual now

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:10-14.​

I do not want to give the impression that under the old covenant I think that a male becomes a child of God simply by the act of circumcision.
That is as mistaken as the belief that in the new covenant salvation is gained by baptism.
I am convinced that it is possible that a man be circumcised for entirely the wrong reason, and his circumcision be invalid.
The Shechemites were circumcised because they desired to share Abraham's wealth, and God brought swift judgement on them.
You did say that it was the COVENANT of circumcision that made Abraham the first member, and that is meaningful to me.
I am interested in your thoughts as to what is required of the man in this covenant.
Many insist that the covenant is unbreakable. Are they right? Was a man really not able to break the old covenant that bound him to God's promise?
I understand in the new covenant salvation is entirely earned by Christ, yet it places the condition of faith on a man.
He is able to break the covenant by proving himself unfaithful.
The "once saved always saved" slogan is only true in that if we are proven unfaithful we were never once saved, despite all appearance. The law of Moses was later imposed on the old covenant people, but is it not fair to say that they also were defined as people of God by their faith in the same way?
Besides Jesus Himself I am not aware of any OT saint that perfectly kept the law.
All depended on the mercy that Christ fulfilled on their behalf.
I noticed that you posted v.14 in bold letters.
I tried to draw attention to this verse earlier in this thread, but it seems that few see the huge implications of it.
It is possible for a man to break this "everlasting" covenant by being uncircumcised, and we see throughout the OT that a man can be circumcised in vain.

 

[Gideon300]

That is very interesting Rose,
I would want to look into it more deeply before responding at length.
You said "Under the old covenant God's people were determined by circumcision, not by ethnicity or race"
I think that is significant to the discussion here on how God defines Israel.




That is a summary of the pre-tribulation rapture line of interpretation.
I am inclined to think that the rapture and the destruction of world as we know it will all be one event.

You say: "Be glad, because Israel will suffer much during the great tribulation. I won't be here."
I would not be glad, because there is nobody of any race or religion living there that I actually hate.
I think I have a duty to call those that are outside Christ to repentance and faith.
The funny thing is that almost every modern Jew is well aware that Christian Zionists hold that belief, even as they "bless" Israel.
Those jews that are inclined toward Zionism also know that this "blessing" is indispensable to the survival of their state, because it comes in the form of much money and weapons.
They are forced to act friendly- however distasteful that may feel.
If you want to know how Israelis really feel about Christians, ask a christian Palestinian.

The repentance must start with us.
I do not believe that modern Israel could ever have been established without the support of Christian Zionists.
Yet Jesus, the king of Israel, never commanded this to be done.
Christians turned their back on Him, then did it in His name.
If Jesus now hears the cry of the children of Gaza, can we safely assume that He will blame it all 100% on "Hamas"?
Millions have been killed and displaced from their homes, including Christians, all for a psychotic extreme theology.
We should neither point our finger at Muslims or Jews for all of this.
They are in darkness, as once were we.
God's patience toward us is like His patience toward the Canaanites, like toward the Israelites when later they defied Him.
He gives many second chances, but in the end His anger is severe.
We need to repent of our idolatry before it is too late.
Bless Jesus and you will be blessed,
Curse Jesus and you will be cursed.

You are really confused and ignorant.

1. God takes no delight in the death of the wicked.
2. There were times when God deemed it necessary to kill everyone in a tribe, including children
3. God destroyed all but 8 people of the human race
4. God's nature does not change.
5. There is a time for war and a time for peace. That in your Bible too.
6. "You do not believe Israel would exist without Christian Zionist?" You are wrong. Israel exists according to God's will and in spite of all the opposition of the world.
7. Hamas killed the children of Gaza. Israel would not have gone into Gaza if Hamas had not attacked
8. Hamas uses civilians as human shields. It's a deliberate policy to turn the world against Israel and gain sympathy for Hamas. It has worked. You should know better.
9. You are accusing Christians of idolising Israel? That's absurd. Some may, but to generalise like that is slanderous.
10. God said that He would bless those who bless Abraham and his descendants.

Is that working out? America was one of the very first to recognise Israel. Australia followed early 1949. America became the most powerful nation on earth. Australia had one of the highest standards of living and a powerful military. America has declined spiritually and much of the nation, especially the young, support Hamas. America is a basket case now.

Australia has imported about a million antisemitic Muslims. Support for Israel is pathetic. Australia is declining in every measure.

Britain was for 100 years the most dominant empire in history. She betrayed Israel and left her to fend for herself in 1948. Since then, Britain lost every vestige of empire. It is now a pathetic shadow trying to regain a modicum of relevance in the world. The economy is propped up by Muslim money.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The Shechemites were circumcised because they desired to share Abraham's wealth, and God brought swift judgement on them.

What Levi and Simeon did wasn't of God, but was self-willed, and as consequence of their disobedience they, the 2nd and 3rd born, were passed over, as Reuben the firstborn was for his disobedience, for inheriting the birthright, and were effectively cursed by Jacob.

Simeon and Levi [are] brethren; instruments of cruelty [are in] their habitations. O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall. Cursed [be] their anger, for [it was] fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel. Genesis 49:5-7​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I am interested in your thoughts as to what is required of the man in this covenant.
Many insist that the covenant is unbreakable. Are they right? Was a man really not able to break the old covenant that bound him to God's promise?

The covenant of circumcision was separate and distinction form the covenant of law made at Sinai. The sole covenant requirement was circumcision. If a man wasn't circumcised he broke the covenant and was cut off from the people and promises of God. Being part of the people of God bound a man to the promises of God, and circumcision defined who was of the people of God. Nothing else mattered.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The law of Moses was later imposed on the old covenant people, but is it not fair to say that they also were defined as people of God by their faith in the same way?

Once they passed through the portal, so to speak, of circumcision they became the people of God. It was an act of faith as water baptism is. So, no, it wasn't faith alone that made them the people of God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It is possible for a man to break this "everlasting" covenant by being uncircumcised, and we see throughout the OT that a man can be circumcised in vain.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. This truth pertains to both the old and new covenants. It is possible for those circumcised, both physical and spiritual, to become uncircumcised in God's eyes due to irremediable unbelief

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Romans 2:25​

​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

America became the most powerful nation on earth. Australia had one of the highest standards of living and a powerful military. America has declined spiritually and much of the nation, especially the young, support Hamas. America is a basket case now.

You're so delusional. America has kept modern Israel alive for the past 77 years with its massive infusion of aid, and the more that aid has increased the more America has declined.

 

[God-fearing]

You're so delusional. America has kept modern Israel alive for the past 77 years with its massive infusion of aid, and the more that aid has increased the more America has declined.

What nonsense, dont know where your sources come from but its a total lie.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What nonsense, dont know where your sources come from but its a total lie.

And it's just a teeny weeney country

"Israel has received more U.S. aid than any other country in the past 78 years, totaling almost $318 billion in various forms of assistance since World War II. This includes military, economic, and humanitarian aid, with military aid being the most significant portion in recent years."

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

What nonsense, dont know where your sources come from but its a total lie.

They always forget to mention this part...

How does U.S. aid to Israel serve America’s interests?
Security assistance to Israel is not only an investment in Israel’s safety but also serves to advance U.S. interests in the Middle East as America’s only democratic ally in the region.

Israel—along with Egypt, Jordan, and the Gulf States—is a U.S. military ally against the onslaught of Iran-backed terror groups and proxies who happen to live next door to the Jewish state.

Additionally, Israel and the United States engage in longstanding intelligence cooperation, sharing information on common security threats, collaborating on technology development, and coordinating efforts in areas such as counterterrorism.

Today, nearly three-quarters of the aid to Israel is delivered in the form of advanced weaponry and other defensive equipment that is produced in the United States. Much of the technology is developed in Israel.

For example, the Iron Dome, invented by Israel but produced in America, now not only is used by the Jewish state, but has also become part of the U.S. Army’s defense system. This represents how U.S. financial support and defense technology, combined with Israeli know-how and ingenuity, advances American security.

Financially, this aid invests in America. It directly supports over 20,000 jobs in the U.S. and indirectly supports thousands of other jobs. Over 1,000 companies in the U.S. have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through America’s commitment to help Israel defend against ascending threats.

Furthermore, arming Israelis with American weapons to fight terrorism spares American servicemen and women from doing it. Former Secretary of State and U.S. Army General Alexander Haig’s observation 35 years ago still resonates today: “Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.”


When President Biden was serving as a U.S. Senator, he spoke about the importance of America’s democratic ally Israel, saying, “Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the [Middle East].”

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

When President Biden was serving as a U.S. Senator, he spoke about the importance of America’s democratic ally Israel, saying, “Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the [Middle East].”

And there you have it. The real reason modern Israel exists. To protect western imperialism/colonialism. And you thought it was God's doing.

 

[Beekeeper]

You are really confused and ignorant.

1. God takes no delight in the death of the wicked.
2. There were times when God deemed it necessary to kill everyone in a tribe, including children
3. God destroyed all but 8 people of the human race
4. God's nature does not change.
5. There is a time for war and a time for peace. That in your Bible too.
6. "You do not believe Israel would exist without Christian Zionist?" You are wrong. Israel exists according to God's will and in spite of all the opposition of the world.
7. Hamas killed the children of Gaza. Israel would not have gone into Gaza if Hamas had not attacked
8. Hamas uses civilians as human shields. It's a deliberate policy to turn the world against Israel and gain sympathy for Hamas. It has worked. You should know better.
9. You are accusing Christians of idolising Israel? That's absurd. Some may, but to generalise like that is slanderous.
10. God said that He would bless those who bless Abraham and his descendants.

Is that working out? America was one of the very first to recognise Israel. Australia followed early 1949. America became the most powerful nation on earth. Australia had one of the highest standards of living and a powerful military. America has declined spiritually and much of the nation, especially the young, support Hamas. America is a basket case now.

Australia has imported about a million antisemitic Muslims. Support for Israel is pathetic. Australia is declining in every measure.

Britain was for 100 years the most dominant empire in history. She betrayed Israel and left her to fend for herself in 1948. Since then, Britain lost every vestige of empire. It is now a pathetic shadow trying to regain a modicum of relevance in the world. The economy is propped up by Muslim money.

1. God has the right to kill who He needs to Kill, but man has no claim on His right. Who are you calling "the wicked" here? Is it because of race or because they are born in a land that Ísrael" wants?"Are you more righteous than they? If not Have you given everything that you own to Ïsrael"?
2."Israel" kills and displaces local inhabitants who they judge to be Gentile, not because they belong to a particular tribe. There are Arabs who they have not yet gotten rid of inside the new state, but they are treated badly.
3. Same as 1.
4. Yes, and He is good, not evil.
6. There is. So what is the point?
7.&8. Probably qualifies as a doubtful disputation. The debate is plastered over the internet already but truth is the first casualty of war and few can prove their claims. I regret having invoked the "H" word, but maintain that none of us can be certain that God's moral assessment of the slaughter aligns 100% with that of the IDF.
9. If only the little finger is hurt the whole body feels it. I defend the righteous name of Jesus, not the righteousness of Christians. Religious institutions become safe havens for pedophiles when we fail to expose the wickedness of man. Ephesians 511.
10. Genesis 12:3 " And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." All the families of the earth have been blessed by Israel through Jesus. Jesus defines blessing differently than the world does. Did you think that was modern Israel? Who does the Bible call "children of Abraham"?

Nations are too complicated to make meaningful parallels as you make regarding their blessing. There are too many people in them with too many different views on "Israel". If America for example was was now in the peak of it's prosperity and power we could as easily say that is because the Trump team actively supports "Israel" more than all previous governments ever have.
Besides Britain USA and Australia are not "families",
Mass immigration is disruptive anywhere but it makes no sense to "bless Israel" with weapons to start wars and then tell the refugees to go back to where they came from.
(didn't have time to check typos)