Israel.

[TruthDefender]

What's your interpretation of Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 concerning Jews based on your eschatology?

Revelation 2:8-11 NKJV: This refers to the church in Smyrna. Jesus warns them that Satan will test them for 10 days and to be faithful till death. He also refers to those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan

Revelation 3:7-10 NKJV: This refers to the church in Philadelphia. He will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet….

Idk what you’re looking for here, but it’s vague regarding the Jews? These are about the difficulties of 2 church locations. I’m not reading any more into it.

 

[God-fearing]

For the benefit of the thread, could you share how you define genocide?



Here, are you claiming that the Palestinians are the enemies of the Israelis?



What does the word "treason" mean? And, assuming you're from the USA, what is the penalty for treason in the USA?



Full disclosure, I had their number since 2011, but it wasn't the time to share. The tares weren't ripe to show themselves globally just yet. But The Almighty reveals all things in His time.interested?

 

[soulprobe]

The verse is simple to understand, you seem to be adding to it.

Of course I’m adding to it. It’s not the first time a verse in the bible required additions to understand it. You don’t seem to understand what redemption means. You believe that verse literally means that 144,000 Jewish males are classified as virgins, not because they were redeemed by the blood of Christ but because they abstained from women their whole lives from birth. In other words, they were not redeemed by the blood of Christ but they were redeemed by their own works of abstinence from women since birth. So now you’ve created two large distinct groups standing before the throne, the elders and the 4 living creatures. One large group being the great multitude from “ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues” and the other large group being the 144,000 Jewish virgin males. Grace is attributed to the great multitude from “ALL nations” and ethnicity, gender, works and virginity is attributed to the 144,000 Jewish males. I can’t imagine a more peculiar and divisive doctrine.

 

[Needevidence]

As thousands of Palestinians flee to safe area doesn't sound quite like genocide to me.
Food crisis in Gaza. Question is how much can a dead person consume? Besides that what other nation feeds there enemy or are even held responsible for that?
Now that hamas is killing Palestinians no out cry about that so I guess it depends on who is doing the killing that matters most.

What I really can't get over is the fact of how many people became experts on the Jewish people and Israel after Oct 7 .
How much people know about the middle east and its politics. It astound me that so many know war fare, international law,
And so much about the prophecies, and Quran that they are willing to except Islamic government and idealism even over there Christian, judisim, and atheist faith just to be right.
History has painted the picture of Israel as a nation with a demoralizing compass. But that compass has led them back to the promised land where God will finish the work he started.

I can see you are truly an expert - well beyond me so I leave you to it!

 

[TMS]

when will people see that Israel means Gods people and Paul made it clear that anyone that accepts Jesus is adopted into the family of God. Those that reject Jesus are cut out and those that accept Jesus are grafted in.

Those that place a special value on the literal Israel are distracted and looking in the wrong place.

Many of the promised prophecies for Israel were fulfilled by Jesus
Many of the promises to Israel are transferred to Spiritual Israel.
and many of the promises were conditional.

The devil is happy when people are looking to literal Israel because it changes most of the prophecies for the end times and people are looking in the wrong place.

 

[Yahshua]

Revelation 2:8-11 NKJV: This refers to the church in Smyrna. Jesus warns them that Satan will test them for 10 days and to be faithful till death. He also refers to those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan

Revelation 3:7-10 NKJV: This refers to the church in Philadelphia. He will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet….

Idk what you’re looking for here, but it’s vague regarding the Jews? These are about the difficulties of 2 church locations. I’m not reading any more into it.

I'm looking for your interpretation of Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 concerning Jews based on your eschatology?

You said there were no verses being shared regarding this argument so i was prepping to share some but i dont know your eschatological position and rather than assume your position i'm first asking you about these. Are you a futurist, preterist, historicist? do you believe we're in the end times or not yet or already done?

And what exactly is vague?

 

[Yahshua]

Really? This doesn't even warrant a response. As it seems you are also in denial of the truth.

Denying what truth specifically?

 

[Yahshua]

when will people see that Israel means Gods people and Paul made it clear that anyone that accepts Jesus is adopted into the family of God. Those that reject Jesus are cut out and those that accept Jesus are grafted in.

Those that place a special value on the literal Israel are distracted and looking in the wrong place.

Many of the promised prophecies for Israel were fulfilled by Jesus
Many of the promises to Israel are transferred to Spiritual Israel.
and many of the promises were conditional.

The devil is happy when people are looking to literal Israel because it changes most of the prophecies for the end times and people are looking in the wrong place.

It was prophesied that the whole world would worship the antichrist whether in the mind and heart (mark in the forehead) or through their work/actions (mark in the hand).

I submit that the modern state of israel is part of the body of antichrist (just like we're the body of christ). And while many are waiting for a singular figure to arrive (contrary to the words of scripture), "the antichrist" is literally butchering the true descendants of ancient Israel, obsessed with possessing all the land and building a temple there.

 

[TMS]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If you read the whole chapter, John 8, The JEWS were so focused on their own selves and being a special people, that they missed the point. And wouldn't hear the truth.
When people are so focused on literal Israel they miss the point.

 

[TMS]

I'm looking for your interpretation of Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 concerning Jews based on your eschatology?

i know this wasn't a question for me but.... I'm a historisist,
and i see the history of the Christian church from Acts till the end days, each church is a period of time for the church until today which is the lukewarm church.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The Christian church today is mostly made up of half converted people.

 

[brightfame52]

The Elect Gentiles were grafted into the New Covenant Promises to Elect Israel. When God announced the New Covenant to Israel as here Jer 31:31-34

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now Rom 11 makes it clear that Gentiles now partake of that fatness and blessing to Elect Israel Rom 11:16-17

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

All those promises to Israel in Jer 31:31-34 are Gospel promises made to them, and yet the Mystery being made known in a more clearer light shows that Gentiles partake of the same promises Eph3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Christ is the Mediator of that Covenant and its promises Heb 8:6-13

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Sp this Unconditional Covenant to Israel Elect includes Elect Gentiles from the Nations 9

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

There was no covenant with Israel when they were in Egypt other than the covenant of circumcision, which they didn't keep.

I just realized that Israel actually did keep the covenant of circumcision while they were in Egypt. It was the generation after them in the wilderness that was not circumcised.

Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people [that were] born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, [them] they had not circumcised. Joshua 5:5​

 

[TruthDefender]

Of course I’m adding to it. It’s not the first time a verse in the bible required additions to understand it. You don’t seem to understand what redemption means. You believe that verse literally means that 144,000 Jewish males are classified as virgins, not because they were redeemed by the blood of Christ but because they abstained from women their whole lives from birth. In other words, they were not redeemed by the blood of Christ but they were redeemed by their own works of abstinence from women since birth. So now you’ve created two large distinct groups standing before the throne, the elders and the 4 living creatures. One large group being the great multitude from “ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues” and the other large group being the 144,000 Jewish virgin males. Grace is attributed to the great multitude from “ALL nations” and ethnicity, gender, works and virginity is attributed to the 144,000 Jewish males. I can’t imagine a more peculiar and divisive doctrine.

Oh now you’re mentioning other groups, too! My comment was only about the 144K. Don’t put words in my mouth that i never said! And i never said that they weren’t redeemed, of course they are because He said they are.

I merely mentioned that they were not defiled by women which makes them virgins. So who is not understanding what??

 

[TruthDefender]

i know this wasn't a question for me but.... I'm a historisist,
and i see the history of the Christian church from Acts till the end days, each church is a period of time for the church until today which is the lukewarm church.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The Christian church today is mostly made up of half converted people.

Just curious as to why you would judge most Christians to be half converted?

Why would you lump all the churches together into one church and make judgment??

They’re definitely NOT all the same, and they all don’t follow the 1st century pattern.

 

[Caan]

We got it you rather believe israel is the blame. Israel is evil got it. So noted now go and spread this lie but I must warn you the blessings and cursing of God are real.
So again believe the lie that was set before you. Listen to the enemy's report.

Spoken for truth!!
An excerpt from Mr Netanyahu's recent U.N. speach.

" The root of the conflict in Israel is not the absence of a Palistinian State,
Rather the existence of a Jewish State".

 

[TMS]

Seven Eras of the History of the Christian Church
1. Ephesus: ‘Desirable’ (31-100 AD): Losing its first love
2. Smyrna: ‘Bittersweet Myrrh’ (100-313 AD): Persecuted and killed
3. Pergamum: ‘Acropolis’ or ‘Elevation’ (313-538): Key figure is Balaam
4. Thyatira: ‘Sacrifice of Penitence’ (538-1517): Key figure is Jezebel
5. Sardis: ‘Escaping’ (1517-1833): Looks alive but actually dead
6. Philadelphia: ‘Brotherly Love’ (1833-1843): The Millerite movement
7. Laodicea: ‘Judgment of the People’ (1844-Close of Probation): Judgment

The seven parts of each message
1. Address to the church pastor
2. Description of Jesus fitting the nature and experience of the respective church
3. Commendation (praiseworthy features of the church)
4. Censure or rebuke (things which need to be corrected)
5. Exhortation (counsel or warning)
6. Appeal to hear what the spirit says
7. Promises to the overcomer.
In Revelation 2 and 3, the church is portrayed as the church militant while in chapters 21, 22 it is portrayed as the church triumphant. The very same promises that Jesus made to the church in Revelation 2 and 3 are realized in Revelation 21 and 22.

The churches provide the chronological and historical framework for the events in the rest of the book. For example, the message to the church of Thyatira is amplified in the description of the first beast of Revelation 13 and the harlot of Revelation 17;

 

[soulprobe]

Oh now you’re mentioning other groups, too! My comment was only about the 144K. Don’t put words in my mouth that i never said! And i never said that they weren’t redeemed, of course they are because He said they are.

I merely mentioned that they were not defiled by women which makes them virgins. So who is not understanding what??

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. My OP that you replied to was about two groups (the great multitude and the 144k) being one same group. Your reply to my OP showed that you believe that the 144k is a different group than the great multitude. Based on that I can only assume you believe there are two large separate groups standing before the throne in Revelation. One group before the throne, elders and 4 creatures (Rev 7: 9-11 the great multitude) consisting of all nations and the other group before the same throne, elders and 4 creatures (Rev 14: 3 the 144k) consisting of Jewish male virgins. I tried to show you that their virginity was symbolic and a result of their redemption by Christ’s blood after repentance, not because they were actually 144k male Jewish men who never been with women. You believe that particular scripture in the literal sense. I don't.

 

[TruthDefender]

[

Seven Eras of the History of the Christian Church
1. Ephesus: ‘Desirable’ (31-100 AD): Losing its first love
2. Smyrna: ‘Bittersweet Myrrh’ (100-313 AD): Persecuted and killed
3. Pergamum: ‘Acropolis’ or ‘Elevation’ (313-538): Key figure is Balaam
4. Thyatira: ‘Sacrifice of Penitence’ (538-1517): Key figure is Jezebel
5. Sardis: ‘Escaping’ (1517-1833): Looks alive but actually dead
6. Philadelphia: ‘Brotherly Love’ (1833-1843): The Millerite movement
7. Laodicea: ‘Judgment of the People’ (1844-Close of Probation): Judgment

The seven parts of each message
1. Address to the church pastor
2. Description of Jesus fitting the nature and experience of the respective church
3. Commendation (praiseworthy features of the church)
4. Censure or rebuke (things which need to be corrected)
5. Exhortation (counsel or warning)
6. Appeal to hear what the spirit says
7. Promises to the overcomer.
In Revelation 2 and 3, the church is portrayed as the church militant while in chapters 21, 22 it is portrayed as the church triumphant. The very same promises that Jesus made to the church in Revelation 2 and 3 are realized in Revelation 21 and 22.

The churches provide the chronological and historical framework for the events in the rest of the book. For example, the message to the church of Thyatira is amplified in the description of the first beast of Revelation 13 and the harlot of Revelation 17;

These actual churches were in Turkey, but can be applied of course to all of us.

 

[TruthDefender]

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. My OP that you replied to was about two groups (the great multitude and the 144k) being one same group. Your reply to my OP showed that you believe that the 144k is a different group than the great multitude. Based on that I can only assume you believe there are two large separate groups standing before the throne in Revelation. One group before the throne, elders and 4 creatures (Rev 7: 9-11 the great multitude) consisting of all nations and the other group before the same throne, elders and 4 creatures (Rev 14: 3 the 144k) consisting of Jewish male virgins. I tried to show you that their virginity was symbolic and a result of their redemption by Christ’s blood after repentance, not because they were actually 144k male Jewish men who never been with women. You believe that particular scripture in the literal sense. I don't.

Again you’re not understanding what i said.
NO, the 144K is what you read in the verses that i gave. The one verse specifically states they weren’t defiled by women which makes them actual virgins coming from the 12 tribes (this is probably why there are so few in number throughout history), the “great multitude” are Christian’s, which i never made mention.

 

[soulprobe]

Again you’re not understanding what i said.
NO, the 144K is what you read in the verses that i gave. The one verse specifically states they weren’t defiled by women which makes them actual virgins coming from the 12 tribes (this is probably why there are so few in number throughout history), the “great multitude” are Christian’s, which i never made mention.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if you never made mention of the great multitude and only the 144k because you were replying to my OP where I made mention of the great multitude, where I said that the 144k and the great multitude are the same group. You disagreed and said the 144k are literally virgin Jewish males, a totally different group than the great multitude who you believe are Christians. I believe that the 144k are the great multitude, "Christians"... the same one group undivided, who have been made as pure as Israelite virgin males made only possible by the blood of the Lamb. There are not two large distinct, separate groups standing before the throne, the elders and the 4 living creatures in Revelation: one group Christians and the other group virgin Jewish males. There is no such division for those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

I do appreciate your replies that helped to create this dialogue.