Is there ANYBODY ...OUT THERE!!!

[Ignorun]

Some of what you believe isn't bible. It's false doctrine.
Do you believe and follow the greatest commandment?

 

[Lanolin]

Umm... Not sure you read correctly. Those that believe the 1st 5, which would certainly include my wife, ARE Brethren.

But certainly glad you're my sister!

Oh sorry! Yes I believe the first five.

 

[Chester]

Since becoming a born again Child of God, some 25 yrs. ago, I have come to understand 1 overriding principle. There isn't a Christian I know, including my wife and children, that believe exactly as I believe, on every doctrine or issue.

So with that in mind, I'd like to see if there is indeed ANYBODY out there that believes everything I do. Or at least someone who comes close. I'm not going to give their doctrinal names.

Here are the fundamentals that I believe every Christian MUST believe and agree on to be considered my brother or sister in the Lord:

1. We are ALL sinners in need of a Savior.

2. Jesus Christ IS that Savior. The ONLY Savior.

3. Jesus IS God in the flesh, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born to a virgin.

4. Jesus was crucified and died to pay our sin debt.

5. God raised Him to life from the dead. ( Believing all this comes by Grace through Faith )

Issues that are probably necessary, but won't discount that person could be my Brethren if they believe differently, because not absolutely certain is vital:

6. The Trinity in the sense that God is 3 distinct persons. ( denying Jesus is God means not a Christian however )

7. Absolutely no works to attain or maintain Salvation.

8. Impossibility of losing Salvation. ( If you spell LOSING, LOOSING, probably not saved! LOL )

9. Water Baptism NOT necessary for Salvation.

10. The Bible is infallible in it's original languages written.

Issues that I am convinced of, but don't believe it affects Salvation to those that think differently.

11. The Church DID NOT replace Israel. They have different promises and destinies, although BOTH are saved by the Blood of Christ.

12. Allegorizing, using as a metaphor, and not taking the Bible literally does violence to Scripture, and leads to all manner of private interpretations. (Obviously there are many figures of speech in Scripture, but the text itself, or obvious context, dictate them)

13. Just as Heaven will be consciously Eternal, Hell will also be conscious eternally.

14. The sons of God in Genesis 6 ARE the fallen angels being held in Tartarus for having sex and procreating with human women, making a hybrid race on a DNA level, mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

15. Jesus will reign for a literal 1000 yrs on Earth after the Great Tribulation.

16. God chooses us, none of us would choose Him. He alone gives us the faith to believe, and we would ALL remain dead unless HE ALONE chooses to save us.

17. There will be different rewards given to the saved based on their walk and works on Earth. NOT AFFECTING SALVATION

18. I believe there are still gifts of the Holy Spirit, although talking in tongues is only if there is somebody to understand. Tongues are not necessary to prove indwelling Holy Spirit.

19. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

20 Christ's return is imminent.

There are probably a dozen or more issues, but I'm asking if there is a single person who believes even 15 of the 20 I listed. I'd be shocked if there were someone who believed ALL 20.

So. IS THERE ANYBODY >>>> OUT THERE

I believe the first five 100%

#7 - Unclear statement - I believe works are not what justifies a person or what keep them saved. But works are such a joyful and wonderful part of the package of serving Christ that I don't like the attitude behind the statement as written.

#8 - Disagree - All those who are believing are saved. Unbelievers are not saved.

#12 - I think I basically agree, but the statement as given has little value - everyone allegorizes Scripture to a certain extent. Do you "greet all the brethren with an holy kiss"? (But Paul when he wrote that was speaking literally, was he not? LOL!)

#18 - I agree with the sentiment of #18 - but think that the primary use of tongues today is praying in private.

#20 - I believe that Christ can/ could come at any minute, but the "doctrine of imminency" as it is often given in evangelical circles often twists Scripture to "prove" points that the text does not say

So I might say I agree with 19 of the 20, but at least four others I would clarify or say differently.

 

[kaylagrl]

How do you eternal security people handle Heb 6? Do you take these words literally or do you allegorize them away?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

How do you eternal security people handle Heb 6? Do you take these words literally or do you allegorize them away?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I said I DONT believe in eternal security...

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Jesus said you MUST be born again,....the only MUST for salvation.
The rest is coming to understanding why we need to be saved and how we are saved.

sola scripture
sola gratia
sola fide
sola Christos
soli deo gloria

 

[maverich]

How do you eternal security people handle Heb 6? Do you take these words literally or do you allegorize them away?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

let me take a shot at this.
If you have tasted of Jesus, it not possible to walk away.
The 12 new this when Jesus asked, will you leave me also.
I have stated where would I go.
The key to Hebrew 6 is have you ever tasted of the lord. For you obviously not.

 

[PlainWord]

If (it is possible) they fall away, they never can be renewed.

If salvation can be lost Unlike in the law where you can be re saved, Heb 6 is telling you clearly Your lost forever.

So if we re-order the wording we can make it work?

For those who were once enlightened and tasted the powers of the age to come (our age), to fall away to be renewed again. Thus, salvation for them was lost.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if we re-order the wording we can make it work?

For those who were once enlightened and tasted the powers of the age to come (our age), to fall away to be renewed again. Thus, salvation for them was lost.

We could, but that would change the meaning of the passage, hebrews is written for those who were being pried to return to law and leave the church, we need to leave it in that context.

 

[PlainWord]

let me take a shot at this.
If you have tasted of Jesus, it not possible to walk away.
The 12 new this when Jesus asked, will you leave me also.
I have stated where would I go.
The key to Hebrew 6 is have you ever tasted of the lord. For you obviously not.

You are not understanding the proper context of this passage. It was written in the first century after Christ died, rose and ascended but before His Presence returned. The old age (Mosaic) and the Law was about to pass which happened in 70 AD but the new age (Messianic) or Church age had begun. There was a 40 year transition period just as there was under Moses when they left Egypt. From when the Law was given to when they entered the Promised Land was about 40 years. When Christ gave the new way to Salvation until redemption came was another 40 years. The Heb 6 passage is speaking of them. They saw, they tasted, and those who would reject could not be redeemed again.

If we read on:

11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end.

This "end" was the end of Israel as a nation (70 AD) and when the Church (saved Jews and Gentile) inherited the promises given to Abraham.

19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil.

The soul is mentioned here, thus the writer speaks of the spiritual realm "behind the veil" where we enter His Presence.

 

[PlainWord]

We could, but that would change the meaning of the passage, hebrews is written for those who were being pried to return to law and leave the church, we need to leave it in that context.

Correct so how is it you think they couldn't lose their salvation???

Remember Jesus said, "a house divided against itself cannot stand?" He didn't come to make peace but to bring a sword. He would turn Jew against Jew, brother against brother, a son against his father, etc. There would be two camps, those who came to accept Jesus as Messiah and those who rejected Him in favor of keeping the Law. Christ's wrath would be poured out on the latter group using the Romans as His instrument to carry it out. In Mat 13 Jesus calls these two groups "the Wheat and the Tares."

 

[p_rehbein]

5. God raised Him to life from the dead. ( Believing all this comes by Grace through Faith )

[this one seems debatable in that Christ said: “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” John 10-18
Still.........just saying ]

8. Impossibility of losing Salvation. ( If you spell LOSING, LOOSING, probably not saved! LOL )

[ been there, had that argument ]

11. The Church DID NOT replace Israel. They have different promises and destinies, although BOTH are saved by the Blood of Christ.

[been there, had that argument]

14. The sons of God in Genesis 6 ARE the fallen angels being held in Tartarus for having sex and procreating with human women, making a hybrid race on a DNA level, mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

[no real opinion one way or the other...not important to me]

15. Jesus will reign for a literal 1000 yrs on Earth after the Great Tribulation.

[been there, had that argument]

16. God chooses us, none of us would choose Him. He alone gives us the faith to believe, and we would ALL remain dead unless HE ALONE chooses to save us.

[been there, had that argument]

19. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

[IF you are counting the rapture that occurred when Christ gave up the Spirit.......ok, otherwise, when Christ returns again.........IT IS OVER]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct so how is it you think they couldn't lose their salvation???

Remember Jesus said, "a house divided against itself cannot stand?" He didn't come to make peace but to bring a sword. He would turn Jew against Jew, brother against brother, a son against his father, etc. There would be two camps, those who came to accept Jesus as Messiah and those who rejected Him in favor of keeping the Law. Christ's wrath would be poured out on the latter group using the Romans as His instrument to carry it out. In Mat 13 Jesus calls these two groups "the Wheat and the Tares."

Because they could never save themselves, if you can not save yourself, you cant unsave yourself

He did turn jew against jew, he turned the legalistic jews against the christian jews. And the religious jews kept trying to attack the christians, which is why hebrews was written to encourage and further probe tothe christian jews how the law has failed

 

[GraceAndTruth]

let me take a shot at this.
If you have tasted of Jesus, it not possible to walk away.
The 12 new this when Jesus asked, will you leave me also.
I have stated where would I go.
The key to Hebrew 6 is have you ever tasted of the lord. For you obviously not.

1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[PennEd]

View attachment 192785


5. God raised Him to life from the dead. ( Believing all this comes by Grace through Faith )

[this one seems debatable in that Christ said: “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” John 10-18
Still.........just saying ]

8. Impossibility of losing Salvation. ( If you spell LOSING, LOOSING, probably not saved! LOL )

[ been there, had that argument ]

11. The Church DID NOT replace Israel. They have different promises and destinies, although BOTH are saved by the Blood of Christ.

[been there, had that argument]

14. The sons of God in Genesis 6 ARE the fallen angels being held in Tartarus for having sex and procreating with human women, making a hybrid race on a DNA level, mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

[no real opinion one way or the other...not important to me]

15. Jesus will reign for a literal 1000 yrs on Earth after the Great Tribulation.

[been there, had that argument]

16. God chooses us, none of us would choose Him. He alone gives us the faith to believe, and we would ALL remain dead unless HE ALONE chooses to save us.

[been there, had that argument]

19. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

[IF you are counting the rapture that occurred when Christ gave up the Spirit.......ok, otherwise, when Christ returns again.........IT IS OVER]

I'm only going to address the 1st 5 in my responses. Not saying anybody can't say whatever they want, but that's just the point I was making.

So number 5 I took right out of Romans 10: 9 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


I think what you are kinda saying is tied with the Trinity so I'm ok with it. Didn't think i'd get any resistance on 5.

 

[tklove]

Since becoming a born again Child of God, some 25 yrs. ago, I have come to understand 1 overriding principle. There isn't a Christian I know, including my wife and children, that believe exactly as I believe, on every doctrine or issue.

So with that in mind, I'd like to see if there is indeed ANYBODY out there that believes everything I do. Or at least someone who comes close. I'm not going to give their doctrinal names.

Here are the fundamentals that I believe every Christian MUST believe and agree on to be considered my brother or sister in the Lord:

1. We are ALL sinners in need of a Savior.

2. Jesus Christ IS that Savior. The ONLY Savior.

3. Jesus IS God in the flesh, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born to a virgin.

4. Jesus was crucified and died to pay our sin debt.

5. God raised Him to life from the dead. ( Believing all this comes by Grace through Faith )

Issues that are probably necessary, but won't discount that person could be my Brethren if they believe differently, because not absolutely certain is vital:

6. The Trinity in the sense that God is 3 distinct persons. ( denying Jesus is God means not a Christian however )

7. Absolutely no works to attain or maintain Salvation.

8. Impossibility of losing Salvation. ( If you spell LOSING, LOOSING, probably not saved! LOL )

9. Water Baptism NOT necessary for Salvation.

10. The Bible is infallible in it's original languages written.

Issues that I am convinced of, but don't believe it affects Salvation to those that think differently.

11. The Church DID NOT replace Israel. They have different promises and destinies, although BOTH are saved by the Blood of Christ.

12. Allegorizing, using as a metaphor, and not taking the Bible literally does violence to Scripture, and leads to all manner of private interpretations. (Obviously there are many figures of speech in Scripture, but the text itself, or obvious context, dictate them)

13. Just as Heaven will be consciously Eternal, Hell will also be conscious eternally.

14. The sons of God in Genesis 6 ARE the fallen angels being held in Tartarus for having sex and procreating with human women, making a hybrid race on a DNA level, mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

15. Jesus will reign for a literal 1000 yrs on Earth after the Great Tribulation.

16. God chooses us, none of us would choose Him. He alone gives us the faith to believe, and we would ALL remain dead unless HE ALONE chooses to save us.

17. There will be different rewards given to the saved based on their walk and works on Earth. NOT AFFECTING SALVATION

18. I believe there are still gifts of the Holy Spirit, although talking in tongues is only if there is somebody to understand. Tongues are not necessary to prove indwelling Holy Spirit.

19. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

20 Christ's return is imminent.

There are probably a dozen or more issues, but I'm asking if there is a single person who believes even 15 of the 20 I listed. I'd be shocked if there were someone who believed ALL 20.

So. IS THERE ANYBODY >>>> OUT THERE

Hi, I really enjoyed reading your discussion forum. I thought that this was a really interesting study. I do believe in about 15-20 of the issues listed myself. I do have questions about some of them, but that is probably because of the way that they are worded, but I am pretty sure those are true as well. I have actually been taught in the church as well as bible study, and Sunday school classes about these issues myself, and it was great to actually get a review from here of what I have been learning throughout my life as a Christian. So thank you again for this again and God bless!

 

[maverich]

1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Nailed it if you taste of Jesus and know the sweetness of what he brings you have nowhere to go

 

[PennEd]

Hi, I really enjoyed reading your discussion forum. I thought that this was a really interesting study. I do believe in about 15-20 of the issues listed myself. I do have questions about some of them, but that is probably because of the way that they are worded, but I am pretty sure those are true as well. I have actually been taught in the church as well as bible study, and Sunday school classes about these issues myself, and it was great to actually get a review from here of what I have been learning throughout my life as a Christian. So thank you again for this again and God bless!

Thank you for your kind words sister.

 

[tklove]

I didn’t see this as a Calvinist view. I took it as God chooses us because we’re in His Son because we believed the gospel of His Son. I also believe that God gives everyone a degree of faith to believe the gospel. Some believe, some reject.

I can agree as well because God does give us a choice to believe in him or not, and we can choose to reject or accept. He also gives us faith to be able to believe as well.

Thank you for your kind words sister.

Of course, God bless!

 

[kaylagrl]

Lot of disagreements from this list. My comments in blue.

Issues that I am convinced of, but don't believe it affects Salvation to those that think differently.

11. The Church DID NOT replace Israel. They have different promises and destinies, although BOTH are saved by the Blood of Christ.

Yes it did (Mt 21:23). Apostate Israel "fell away" during the great tribulation of 66-70 AD and the church (made up of Jews and Gentiles) replaced apostate Israel as God's witnesses on earth.

12. Allegorizing, using as a metaphor, and not taking the Bible literally does violence to Scripture, and leads to all manner of private interpretations. (Obviously there are many figures of speech in Scripture, but the text itself, or obvious context, dictate them)

Like any literary work, the Bible uses a lot of metaphors and figures of speech. Knowing when they are in use is key to understanding. The best way is to see how they are used in the OT.

13. Just as Heaven will be consciously Eternal, Hell will also be conscious eternally.

Yes. Both are in the spiritual realm where we will exist eternally.

14. The sons of God in Genesis 6 ARE the fallen angels being held in Tartarus for having sex and procreating with human women, making a hybrid race on a DNA level, mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

Yes, those you mention in Gen 6 were angels procreating with human women. Any hybrid race was wiped out in the Flood. Those being spoken of in 2 Pet 3 and Jude were first century apostate Jews most of whom were wiped out in the great tribulation of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

15. Jesus will reign for a literal 1000 yrs on Earth after the Great Tribulation.

Literal? Real yes, but He is reigning now with us. He is not sitting on some earthly throne and there is no third temple to be built in Jerusalem. Christ Himself makes this abundantly clear in multiple passages. He destroyed the 2nd temple, He rebuilt it in 3 days. He sits at the right hand of the Father. He rules over the nations with a rod of iron. His kingdom came without observation. His kingdom is within us. He ushered in the new age, the age we are now in - the Messianic Age. This is all spiritual.

16. God chooses us, none of us would choose Him. He alone gives us the faith to believe, and we would ALL remain dead unless HE ALONE chooses to save us.

Yes, spiritually speaking.

17. There will be different rewards given to the saved based on their walk and works on Earth. NOT AFFECTING SALVATION

18. I believe there are still gifts of the Holy Spirit, although talking in tongues is only if there is somebody to understand. Tongues are not necessary to prove indwelling Holy Spirit.

19. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

Define Tribulation. Define rapture. Both were 1st century events.

20 Christ's return is imminent.

It was imminent. As He said, everything would come to that generation. The generation living when He made those comments. If you look at the literal words used in Mt 24, you will see that it was the PRESENCE (parousia) of Christ which was to return, as lightening. His return was real but it was spiritual. If you didn't know the signs, you would miss it. If you weren't watching, you would miss it. A literal physical return and reign in a temple nobody would miss. Christ makes clear many will "fall asleep" or not have enough oil in their lamps, etc. Others will not remain sober and miss it.

The apostles taught Christ's return was imminent to them in their days. Paul promised the Thessalonians rest from their torments. He didn't promise rest to people thousands of years later. In Revelation multiple times Christ was to come quickly. All the signs in Mt 24 were first century signs and all happened in the first century. There were no signs given applicable to our times. There is no long time lapse mentioned. In Mt 3, John says the ax was already at "laid at the root of the trees." The Baptist asks the religious leaders who came out of Jerusalem who told them to flee the wrath to come. This was the wrath that came within 1 generation of Christ's words, in 70 AD, almost exactly 40 years from when He said it.

There are probably a dozen or more issues, but I'm asking if there is a single person who believes even 15 of the 20 I listed. I'd be shocked if there were someone who believed ALL 20.

So. IS THERE ANYBODY >>>> OUT THERE

Not so,read Romans 11. Israel is still the apple of God's eye. They have not been replaced by the church.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Not so,read Romans 11. Israel is still the apple of God's eye. They have not been replaced by the church.

The genitles were grafted IN. Gentiles have become Israel along with believing Jews.
Israel is the church in the new covenant
Genesis 17: 19-21 the covenant is with Isaac

Romans 2:29….but he is a Jew who is one INWARDLY, and circumcision is that which is of the HEART, by the Spirit.

Circumcism of the FLESH was a sign of the OLD covenant with God’s chosen people, the Jews……in the New Covenant……circumcism is by the Spirit on God’s chosen…….THE CHURCH.

The circumcism is done by the Spirit on the HEART of men

Romans 9: 6 ….they are not all Israel who are decended from Israel
7 neither are they all children because they are Abrahams’s descendents, but THRU ISAAC your descendents will be named.
8 the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are regarded as descendents.

Romans 11: 7 that which Israel (the Jews of the nation Israel) is seeking for, (salvation – see context) it has not obtained, but those who were CHOSEN obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

Galatians 3:29 …..if you belong to Christ, then you are ABRAHAM’s offspring, HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE

SPIRITUAL JEWS = Israel (the one who is a Jew INWARDLY)
Galatians 4:28……you brethren, like Isaac, are CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE

Those who are of faith are sons of Abraham Gal 3:7

The TRUE CIRCUMCISM are we who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh
Phil 3:3