Is the "Trinity" False?

[cenallen]

You're good at making claims, I'll give you that. But anything past that seems to be beyond you.

BlessedOneness:
Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection

exegete.

 

[BlessedOneness]

BlessedOneness:
Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection

exegete.

Who do you think you are to give me commands? I'm not your dog. I don't need to do anything for those who simply seek to disrespect and tear me down.

 

[cenallen]

Who do you think you are to give me commands? I'm not your dog. I don't need to do anything for those who simply seek to disrespect and tear me down.

never mind then.
i'll expose you myself.

 

[BlessedOneness]

never mind then.
i'll expose you myself.

I think you'll only be exposing yourself, but you're free to do as you wish.

 

[cenallen]

BlessedOneness:
Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection

Isaiah 43 11 I -- I am Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Isaiah 45:21 Declare what is to be, present it--let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

Isaiah 60:16 You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Hosea 13:4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

....................

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.


Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Revelation 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


..................

Isaiah 6 1 n the year of the death of king Uzziah -- I see the Lord, sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and His train is filling the temple

אֲדֹנָי

John 12 30 Jesus answered and said, 'Not because of me hath this voice come, but because of you; 31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth; 32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' 33 And this he said signifying by what death he was about to die; 34 the multitude answered him, 'We heard out of the law that the Christ doth remain -- to the age; and how dost thou say, That it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up? who is this -- the Son of Man?' 35 Jesus, therefore, said to them, 'Yet a little time is the light with you; walk while ye have the light, that darkness may not overtake you; and he who is walking in the darkness hath not known where he goeth; 36 while ye have the light, believe in the light, that sons of light ye may become.' These things spake Jesus, and having gone away, he was hid from them, 37 yet he having done so many signs before them, they were not believing in him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he said, 'Lord, who gave credence to our report? and the arm of the Lord -- to whom was it revealed?' 39 Because of this they were not able to believe, that again Isaiah said, 40 'He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;' 41 these things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 42 Still, however, also out of the rulers did many believe in him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing, that they might not be put out of the synagogue, 43 for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

44 And Jesus cried and said, 'He who is believing in me, doth not believe in me, but in Him who sent me; 45 and he who is beholding me, doth behold Him who sent me



they sawed Isaiah in half for claiming he saw THE LORD Adonay

john said Isaiah saw JESUS.


now you undo all that, BlessedOneness you heretic.
or does this apply to YOU:

but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing, that they might not be put out of the synagogue, 43 for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

 

[BlessedOneness]

Isaiah 43 11 I -- I am Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.
...
Hosea 13:4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

....................

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.


Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Revelation 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


..................

Isaiah 6 1 n the year of the death of king Uzziah -- I see the Lord, sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and His train is filling the temple

אֲדֹנָי

John 12 30 Jesus answered and said, 'Not because of me hath this voice come, but because of you; 31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth; 32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' 33 And this he said signifying by what death he was about to die; 34 the multitude answered him, 'We heard out of the law that the Christ doth remain -- to the age; and how dost thou say, That it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up? who is this -- the Son of Man?' 35 Jesus, therefore, said to them, 'Yet a little time is the light with you; walk while ye have the light, that darkness may not overtake you; and he who is walking in the darkness hath not known where he goeth; 36 while ye have the light, believe in the light, that sons of light ye may become.' These things spake Jesus, and having gone away, he was hid from them, 37 yet he having done so many signs before them, they were not believing in him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he said, 'Lord, who gave credence to our report? and the arm of the Lord -- to whom was it revealed?' 39 Because of this they were not able to believe, that again Isaiah said, 40 'He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;' 41 these things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 42 Still, however, also out of the rulers did many believe in him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing, that they might not be put out of the synagogue, 43 for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

44 And Jesus cried and said, 'He who is believing in me, doth not believe in me, but in Him who sent me; 45 and he who is beholding me, doth behold Him who sent me



they sawed Isaiah in half for claiming he saw THE LORD Adonay

john said Isaiah saw JESUS.


now you undo all that, BlessedOneness you heretic.
or does this apply to YOU:

but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing, that they might not be put out of the synagogue, 43 for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

Firstly:

"now you undo all that, BlessedOneness you heretic.
or does this apply to YOU:

but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing, that they might not be put out of the synagogue, 43 for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God."
​

Calling me a heretic is really nothing more than an appeal to the approval of men. Heresy is merely defined as something that is not orthodoxy. In other words, if I don't agree with the majority view that people have, then I'm regarded as a heretic by that standard. So if you want to call me a heretic, that's your call, but just know that you're doing that by appealing to the approval of men.

Secondly: The good ol' Saviour argument.

[SIZE=+1]The Trinitarian Claim[/SIZE]
Trinitarians claim that Jesus must be Yahweh because there is no Savior but Yahweh and Jesus is the Savior of the world.


[SIZE=+1]Examination of the Claim[/SIZE]
Trinitarians make the following observations:

Today in the city of David there has been born to you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11.

He is truly the Savior of the world. John 4:42.​

Having made this particular observation, they therefore conclude that Jesus must be Yahweh because Yahweh says, "there is no Savior besides me" at Isaiah 43:11 and Hosea 13:4.


[SIZE=+1]Analysis of the Evidence[/SIZE]
1. Other Saviors
The Trinitarian claim does however ignore some very key facts. God has raised up numerous human Saviors. The Hebrew word used in all the following quotations of Scripture is the exact same word translated as "Savior" at Isaiah 43:11.

When the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for the sons of Israel to save them, Othniel the son of Kenaz. Judges 3:9

But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjaminite. Judges 3:15

Then Jehoahaz besought the Lord, and the Lord hearkened to him; for he saw the oppression of Israel, how the king of Syria oppressed them. Therefore the Lord gave Israel a Savior, so that they escaped from the hand of the Syrians. 2 Kings 13:4-5

Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their oppressors who oppressed them, But when they cried to You in the time of their distress, You heard from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You gave them Saviors who saved them from the hand of their oppressors. Nehemiah 9:27

The Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the kingdom will be the LORD'S. Obadiah 1:21

​

Trinitarians are not appreciating the fact that their argument falls flat by these passages. To claim that Isaiah 43:11 means that there is no other Savior but YAHWEH acting alone creates a contradictory inconsistency. The Trinitarian intepretation would then exclude all these Saviors which God raised up and their argument then contradicts Scripture. However, in the above verses we see that it was indeed God who raised up these Saviors. In this way, there is no Savior but Yahweh. He is the one who raises up these Saviors. God is the one responsible for providing the salvations in view in the above passages. Each of these Saviors are Yahweh's Saviors and in this way there is no Savior besides Yahweh.

2. God Raised Up a Savior
Now also notice how the Bible speaks of Jesus in the very same way, God raised up a Savior, namely, Jesus.

He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.Acts 5:31

From the seed of David, according to promise, God has raised up to Israel a Savior, Jesus. Acts 13:23

The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14​

God gave his only son to be His Savior. Indeed, we read that God gave Jesus to Israel, born of Mary, to save them from their sins (Matthew 1:21). And God "has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of David His servant" (Luke 1:69). It is God's doing, Yahweh who raises up this Savior just as He raised up all the other human Saviors in the Old Testament. We also read at Acts 2:21 that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved only to discover that the Lord in question is the man Jesus whom God the Father has made Lord by raising him from the dead (2:22-36). It is also quite clear that it is a human who is the Savior at Acts 13:23, as quoted above.
Note also the following passages:
Salvation belongs to YAHWEH:

Salvation belongs to YAHWEH Your blessing be upon Your people (Psalm 3:8).
But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving that which I have vowed I will pay salvation is from YAHWEH. (Jonah 2:9).
​

3. Jesus: God Our Savior's Salvation
And what is even more explicit is the declaration of Simeon:

And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation. (Luke 2:25-30).​

The flesh in Simeon's arms was his God's salvation, Yahweh's salvation. God has raised up many human Saviors and now he has raised up another human Savior who saves us from our sins and from death. Because God our Savior has raised up Jesus as HIS salvation it is said of Jesus, "all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luke 3:6; cf. Acts 28:28). Jesus is our God's salvation, the salvation of God our Savior. Jesus is not Yahweh but Yahweh's salvation. There is no Savior besides Yahweh and Jesus is Yahweh's salvation.
When we realize Jesus is God's salvation, that he is Yahweh's salvation, it becomes quite clear that the it is God who raised up Jesus to be Savior of the world and in this manner there is no Savior apart from God.

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. Revelation 19:1.​

[SIZE=+1]Conclusion[/SIZE]
Jesus is Yahweh's salvation. When all the facts are honestly reviewed, it is quite plain and clear what is intended at Isaiah 43:11. The Trinitarian claim that Jesus must be Yahweh falls apart when it is realized that Jesus IS Yahweh's salvation. Yahweh says there is no Savior besides me. Since Jesus IS Yahweh's salvation then Yes this is quite true, there is no Savior besides Yahweh, that is, no Savior apart from God the Father. The Father (our Savior) has sent the Son as Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14). Jesus is the Father's salvation. He is the salvation of Yahweh our Savior.

​

Thirdly: "The first and the last" argument

[SIZE=+1]Trinitarian Claim[/SIZE]
Trinitarians claim that Jesus is implying he is Yahweh because Yahweh is identified as "the First and the Last" in the Book of Isaiah and Jesus identifies himself as "the First and the Last."

[SIZE=+1]Examination of the Evidence[/SIZE]
1. Isaiah
In the book of Isaiah, we find Yahweh identifying Himself as the First and the Last through the prophet Isaiah.

Thus says YAHWEH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 44:6.

Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Isaiah 48:12.​

2. "The first and the last" vs. "alpha and omega" vs. "beginning and the end."
A review of these three expressions in the book of Revelation demonstrates that each of the three are intended to convey identical concepts and they all obviously mean the same thing.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8.

Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last. Revelation 1:17.

And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: the first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this... Revelation 2:8.

I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. Revelation 21:6.

I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Revelation 22:16​

However, one other significant verse is usually ignored.

To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, says this.... Revelation 3:14.​

3. What do these expressions mean? What is their purpose?
What is usually missing from the Trinitarian claim is any attempt to demonstrate what these three expressions mean. Each of the three seems to be simply regarded as title for Yahweh and no further thought is given to them. But there is evidence to indicate what these terms mean:

Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isaiah 48:12-13.​

This passages indicates that creation is in view where God is the originator of all things. It also indicates that the expression, "the beginning of the creation of God," at Revelation 3:14, is spoken with the same background in mind.


[SIZE=+1]Analysis of the Claim[/SIZE]
1. The first and the last was dead
An insurmountable problem is that that the first and the last indicates he was dead.

"I am the first and the last and the living one. I was dead and behold I am alive to the ages of the ages. Revelation 1:17.

And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last who was dead, and has come to life, says this... Revelation 2:8.​

Since Jesus, the first and the last, refers to himself as the first and the last and indicates the first and the last was dead, the best Trinitarians can do is insist that Yahweh the Son was "speaking according to his human nature." But this does not resolve their problem and will fail them.
Trinitarians observe that Yahweh is identified as "the first and the last" in the book of Isaiah as the basis of his argument and their claim is based on the presumption that "the first and the last" is a title of divinity. However, they fail to see that, even in their own doctrine, Jesus necessarily said these words at Revelation 1:18 according to his humanity. It is also quite impossible for Yahweh to have identified Himself in the book of Isaiah "according to his human nature" or "according to his humanity" or "according to the flesh" in the book of Isaiah. Whether Trinitarians wish to claim this was the Second Person of the Trinity speaking in Isaiah, or whether Trinitarians wish to claim this was the Triune God speaking in Isaiah, in no case can it be claimed this was anyone speaking according to the flesh since even in their own doctrine, Jesus had not yet become incarnate. Hence, in their own doctrine, they can only say this was Yahweh the Son speaking according to his divinity in the book of Isaiah.
But in Revelation, Trinitarians cannot escape acknowledging that Jesus was speaking according to his humanity since he says the first and the last was dead and in Trinitarian doctrine, Jesus was not dead according to his divinity but dead according to his humanity. And Trinitarians are therefore confronted with their own roadblock which should demonstrate to them that their interpretation is quite impossible. They cannot insist that Yahweh is "the first and the last."

2. The Word of God
In the book of Revelation, Jesus is understood to be "the Word of God" just as he is in John's Gospel and other places in Scripture.

He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:13.​

Isaiah 48:12-13 suggests the first and the last is an expression which implies God's creative act. The same idea seems also to be found at Revelation 3:14, "the beginning of the creation of God. In light of the fact that God created all things through His spoken Word, the fact that Jesus is pictured as the Word of God in the book of Revelation cannot be ignored.

3. Revelation 3:14
Jesus said to John, "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, says this...." Once again, we find the word "beginning" in reference to Jesus that we also find in the expression, "the beginning and the end."
Where did creation begin? It began at God's spoken Word. God's spoken Word was not created but His Word was indeed the place where all creation began. There is absolutely no reason to suppose the expression "the beginning of the creation of God" means "the ruler of the creation of God" as Trinitarians have suggested in response to Arians (usually) who have claimed this expression means the Son was the first created thing. And there is no reason to believe the latter either. What is a true and faithful witness, what is the Amen, is God's Word of Truth. God's Word is faithful and true and can be trusted. It is common sense to understand that the beginning of the creation of God is the place WHERE creation had its ground zero, the spoken Word of God, just as we seen in the opening chapter of Genesis.

4. Everything Began with God's Word and Everything will End with God's Word.
Only a small amount of investigation is required to see that the expressions, "the first and the last," "the beginning and the end," and "the alpha and the omega" are all similar expressions which refer to God's Word as the place where all things began and all things will end.
All things began with God's spoken Word. Within that Word was God's eternal purpose and will for this creation. That Word became flesh and God's Eternal Purpose was summed up in Jesus. And that Word, now flesh, will come again to judge the world, the Last, the End, the Omega. God's purpose and will were contained in His Word which went out from Him at the foundation of the world. And He fixed the times and seasons things would occur according to His purpose and will. When He spoke His Word He was finished with all his works and we humans see his works coming to pass in this time and space. His Word is where creation Begins and His Word is where creation Ends. And that Word is the first and the last which was dead human flesh. "the first and the last who was dead" (Rev 2:8).

His works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:3.

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I purposed, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11.

The Word became flesh. John 1:14.

It is finished. John 19:30.​

[SIZE=+1]Conclusion[/SIZE]
The first and the last was dead. Whether you are a Trinitarian or not, you must insist "the first and the last who was dead" was Jesus according to his human nature and the expression, "the first and the last" is not a reference to divinity since Jesus according to his divinity was NOT dead.
The verses at hand come from John's writings where Jesus is understood to be God's Word, the Word which had become flesh. When we understand that the term, "the first and the last", and the like, are implicit references to the Logos, the Word, it then becomes quite clear what these expressions mean and why Jesus is called these things. He is called these things because God's Word is where everything begins and ends and that Word had become flesh, the flesh that hung dead on a cross, "I am the first and the last and the living one, I was dead."
​

 

[BlessedOneness]

Fourthly: The Isaiah 6 argument

[SIZE=+1]Trinitarian Claim[/SIZE]
Some Trinitarians take this passage as proof that "Jesus is Yahweh." They see that Isaiah had seen the glory of Jesus and then they turn back the pages to see what Isaiah said and conclude that Isaiah was talking about YAHWEH and therefore Jesus is Yahweh.


[SIZE=+1]Examination of the Claim[/SIZE]
1. The Trinitarian Approach
Trinitarians focus upon John's second quotation and locate the source of the John 12:41 quotation:

In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is YAHWEH of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory. And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven." Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: `Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."
For Isaiah again said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them. (NASB)
​

Having seen that Isaiah 6 is the source of the quotation, Trinitarians then observe the following:

In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.... my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."​

And then they make the following comparison:

For Isaiah again said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them." Isaiah said this because he saw his glory and spoke of him.​

The Trinitarian objective here is to claim that John's statement means that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory in Isaiah 6 and since Isaiah is referring to YAHWEH, Jesus must therefore BE YAHWEH.
Essentially, Trinitarians are interpreting John as follows:

Isaiah said this because he saw God the Son's glory as he was sitting on a throne in heaven and spoke of God the Son sitting on a throne in heaven.
OR
Isaiah said this because he saw YAHWEH the Son's glory as he was sitting on a throne in heaven and spoke of YAHWEH the Son sitting on a throne in heaven.​

2. Where's the Father? Indeed, Where's the Triune God?
One has to wonder what the Trinitarian is actually thinking. In Trinitarian doctrine, the one true God, YAHWEH,is the Triune Being. But somehow, in the Trinitarian mind, YAHWEH sitting on His throne in Isaiah 6 is not the Triune God, not God the Father, but simply Jesus.
Where does God the Father fit in this picture? Are we to suppose that God the Father (and the Holy Spirit) are just not there? Are we to forget they exist, or suppose they are off somewhere else, and suppose just one single person is sitting on this throne and this person is Jesus? Are we to become temporary Modalists to suit this occasion? The Trinitarian claim does not even make sense on the surface of things.

3. John has been referring to Humanity not Divinity

Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? "Father, save me from this hour'? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour." v.27

How can you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man? v.34​

And John quotes from Isaiah 53 which describes the suffering servant, the human being Jesus.

Behold, My servant will prosper, he will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted. Just as many were astonished at you, My people, So his appearance was marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men.... Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows... Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed... He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet he did not open his mouth; like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open His mouth... he was cut off out of the land of the living... the LORD was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief... he poured out his soul unto death. Isaiah 52:13-53:12.​

Whether you are a Trinitarian or not, the theme of Isaiah 53 is a suffering servant and suffering humanity, not divinity sitting on a throne.

4. John Quoted Two Separate Verses, Not Just One
John quotes from both Isaiah 53 (v.38) and from Isaiah 6 (v.40). Isaiah 53 is the well known Suffering Servant passage prophetically describing the suffering of God's Christ. But when Trinitarians interpret John 12:41 to conveniently support their doctrine, they intentionally ignore the relevance of John's quotation of Isaiah 53 and focus instead upon his quotation from Isaiah 6. But John says that Isaiah said "these things" And after John states what Isaiah said in Isaiah 53, he says, "For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,"He has blinded their eyes...."
It is therefore quite clear that "these things" refer to both quotations. So both Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 6 are "these things" which Isaiah said. Therefore, Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus with respect to both Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 6. Moreover, John says that Isaiah said these things when he saw his glory. Whatever glory Isaiah saw, the glory he saw must be seen in Isaiah 53.
These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory.

5. John's Purpose in Quoting these Two Verses
The context makes it quite plain that John's purpose in quoting these two verses is to show how the disbelief of the Jews had been prophesied by Isaiah and this prophecy was now being fulfilled.

"But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet.... Isaiah said these things...."​

6. The Trinitarian Claim Directly Contradicts Scripture as well as their own doctrine!
In Isaiah 6, the Lord who was sitting on his throne, the King, the LORD of Hosts, is also the one who says the following to Isaiah:

[The LORD] said, "Go, and tell this people: `Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." (Isaiah 6:9-10).​

Trinitarians claim the Lord in Isaiah 6 is God the Son. However, this claim conflicts with the Holy Scriptures which say it was the Holy Spirit who said this:

And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word,"The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: 'Go to this people, and say, You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.'" Acts 28:25-27.​

In Trinitarian doctrine, the Son is most definitely NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Son. Acts 28:26 tells us the Holy Spirit spoke these things at Isaiah 6:9-10 and not the Son. This completely rules out the possibility that the Lord in Isaiah 6 is the Son for two reasons:

1. The Trinitarian claim contradicts the Scriptures which say the Holy Spirit said these things not the Son.
2. The Trinitarian claim contradicts their own doctrine because the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Son. However, the Scriptures say the Son spoke these things.
​

Therefore, the Trinitarian claim is demonstrably false since the claim contradicts both Scripture and their own doctrine.


[SIZE=+1]Analysis of the Evidence[/SIZE]

1. The Immediate Context
In the immediately preceding context, John is talking about the fact that people were not believing in him although he had done many signs (v.37) and this happened to fulfill the word spoken by Isaiah:

"Lord, who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" v.38.​

And then John quotes Isaiah 6:10 to indicate they were not able to believe because:

He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.​

And then we see some very important words from Jesus in the context which follows:

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in the One who sent me. And he who sees me sees the One who sent me." (12:44-45).​

The immediate context is about disbelief. Even though the man Jesus had done may signs, they did not believe in him. And so John indicates this is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies. And Jesus responds with a teaching on seeing and believing - to see Jesus is not to see Jesus but to see the Father. Throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus explains he was one with the Father in the works he did in his Father's name. People saw the Father at work in Jesus. Even further, John said, "though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in him (v. 37). We are told in Scripture that these signs were done by God the Father at work in Jesus (14:10; Acts 2:22).

2. John is Talking about Fulfillment of Prophecy
We are told that the quotations from Isaiah are a fulfillment of prophecy.

But though he had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke.... (v. 37).​

Isaiah's statements are prophetic and they clearly refer to the future when people would not believe in Jesus although he had done many signs before them . Therefore, when we read the words "Isaiah saw his glory and spoke of him," it should be clear that Isaiah prophetically saw the glory of the future Jesus of Nazareth who was doing these signs.

3. What Glory is John talking about?
The Septuagint
Note also the immediate context of the Septuagint for John's quotation of Isaiah 53:1.

Behold, my servant shall understand, and be exalted, and GLORIFIED exceedingly. As many shall be amazed at thee, so shall thy face be without GLORY from men, and YOUR GLORY shall not be honoured by the sons of men. Thus shall many nations wonder at him; and kings shall keep their mouths shut: for they to whom no report was brought concerning him, shall see; and they who have not heard, shall consider. O Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? Isaiah 52:13-53:1​

The Immediate Context of John 12:41
The context makes it quite clear what glory John has in mind when he writes John 12:41, the glory manifested in the signs Jesus was doing. And even thought he manifested his glory in doing these signs, they would still not believe.

And Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. If anyone serves me, he must follow me and where I am, there my servant will be also; if anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, `Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." 12:23-28.​

Jesus' Signs Manifest His Glory
Note how the word "glory" is used in John. It refers to the glory of the works Jesus was doing in his Father's name.

we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 1:14
This, the first of the signs Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. John 2:11
​

Jesus' signs manifested his glory. This is exactly what John has been talking about in the context of John 12:41, "although He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in him" (v. 37). And then John quotes Isaiah to show that this disbelief is a fulfillment of prophecy.


[SIZE=+1]Conclusion[/SIZE]
The Trinitarian claim is obviously false since it contracts their own doctrine and the Scriptures. John said Isaiah said "these things." Isaiah 53:1, the suffering servant passage, is one of those two things Isaiah said. "These things" Isaiah said when he saw his glory and spoke of him. What glory did the prophet Isaiah see in Isaiah chapter 53? He saw a suffering servant. And this matches perfectly with the glory Jesus is talking about in the preceding context.
John quotes Isaiah to show how Isaiah's prophetic statements about the future were fulfilled. This should immediately tell us that John is not referring to seeing a pre-existing God the Son's glory sitting on a throne in heaven, but is referring to seeing the future glory of the future man Jesus of Nazareth who manifested his glory in the signs he was doing in his Father's name. It is the glory of a suffering servant, God's servant-son Jesus of Nazareth. Isaiah 6:10 is quoted to show how the disbelief of the Jews had been prophesied by Isaiah. There is no reason, except wishful thinking, to suppose Isaiah 6:10 is quoted by John to refer to a pre-existent God the Son's glory up in heaven simply because Isaiah's vision of the glory of the LORD happens to appear in verse 1 of the same chapter. The context makes it quite clear that the glory in question is the glory of the signs done by this man Jesus who was a future person from Isaiah's perspective. The glory that Isaiah saw which John has in mind was not God the Son sitting up in heaven on a throne but the future man Jesus showing his glory in the works that he would do including death on cross.​

 

[Red33]

I hope that believers will not come to a place when they stop believing that Jesus Christ is not only our Lord and Saviour but also our God and Creator of all things. That would be a major departure of the faith and I reckon some have already been swerved away. We need to continue to do what the book of Jude has so graciously and specifically instructed us...

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[BlessedOneness]

I hope that believers will not come to a place when they stop believing that Jesus Christ is not only our Lord and Saviour but also our God and Creator of all things. That would be a major departure of the faith and I reckon some have already been swerved away. We need to continue to do what the book of Jude has so graciously and specifically instructed us...

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Funny how Jude distinguishes Yeshua from the one true God.

 

[cenallen]

Calling me a heretic is really nothing more than an appeal to the approval of men. Heresy is merely defined as something that is not orthodoxy. In other words, if I don't agree with the majority view that people have, then I'm regarded as a heretic by that standard. So if you want to call me a heretic, that's your call, but just know that you're doing that by appealing to the approval of men.

you and your sources are heretical.
i couldn't care less about men.


this posters' sources:

The Trinity Delusion
An Exposé of Christendom's Golden Calf

The Trinity Delusion: The False Doctrine of the Trinity

The following is an incomplete list of people who have contributed in some way to the information and/or conclusions on this site.

New Advent (Catholic website): Excellent and easy to use resource for early Christian writings.
Anthony Buzzard - miscellaneous facts and information which I have come across.
Jehovah's Witnesses: Collections of scholarly quotations (mostly quotations from Trinitarian Hebrew/Greek scholars concerning translation issues).
Christadelphians.org - miscellaneous information.
Robert Bowman (Trinitarian Apologist) - misc. apologetic information from a Trinitarian perspective. Also, his Trinity Outline and his document "Sharp's Rule and Antitrinitarian Theologies."
William M. Watchel (unknown) - important information regarding the word morphe at Philippians 2:6.
Daniel Wallace (Trinitarian Greek expert) - Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, important information regarding Colwell's Rule as it relates to John 1:1, his document "Sharp Redivivus" A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule, his document "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit," and misc. other writings.
Trinitarian Scholars - miscellaneous information from various scholars concerning the original language grammar or manuscript variant details of certain verses.
Messiah Truth Project (Jewish) - very important information regarding the intent of names in Isaiah and the details of the Hebrew text at Zechariah 12:10.
Berend de Boer (Trinitarian) - good information concerning the history of KJV version of 1 Timothy 3:16 in the early church.
Nehemia Gordon (unknown) - excellent website article on the word "Elohim."
Richard Rubenstein - some historical facts in his book on the Nicean-Arian controversy, "When Jesus became God" which confirmed my own research and conclusions and added a few more insights and facts.
Charles Freeman - historical facts in his book "A.D. 381" which substantially added to my own historical research.
Articuli Fidei, ?David Waltz? (unknown) - good listing of theosis quotations from the early Christians.


Anthony Buzzard

anyone who doesn't know who anthony buzzard really is should do a few background checks.

ex:
Sir Anthony F. Buzzard also explained that he had left the formerly Unitarian Worldwide Church of God after that denomination embraced orthodox doctrine in 1994 and he affiliated with the Church of God General Conference which maintains the Unitarian doctrine. The CGGC headquarters and college, Atlanta Bible College, where Sir Anthony is on staff, are located in Morrow, GA, a suburb of Atlanta.

Sir Anthony had given me his card and contacted me via e-mail soon after the conference, wishing to discuss further reasons why the New Testament gives no clear statement of Jesus' divinity or of the person of the Holy Spirit. When I looked up the web page of Anthony Buzzard's Restoration Fellowship, I was astonished to discover that this British gentleman had been nominated in 1996 for the Templeton Prize . This $1,000,000 "Prize for Progress in Religion" is given annually by New Age financier John Templeton at the World Parliament of Religions, which has included among the distinguished recipients Billy Graham, Bill Bright, Chuck Colson, Mother Teresa, Cardinal Suenens and various Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim leaders. This honor is advertised in Anthony Buzzard's Profile .
watchuntoprayer

Jehovah's Witnesses
what needs to be said here?


Christadelphians.org
he Christadelphians (a word created from the Greek for "Brethren in Christ";[1][2] cf. Colossians 1:2 — "brethren in Christ")[3][4] are a Christian group that developed in the United Kingdom and North America in the 19th century. The name was coined by John Thomas,[5] who was the group's founder. Christadelphians hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism.
Nevertheless, all the distinctive Christadelphian doctrines, down to interpretations of specific verses, can be found particularly among 16th century Socinian writers (e.g. the rejection of the doctrines of the trinity, pre-existence of Christ, immortal souls, a literal hell of fire, original sin)[124] Early English Unitarian writings also correspond closely to those of Christadelphians. Also, recent discoveries and research have shown a large similarity between Christadelphian beliefs and those held by Isaac Newton who, among other things, rejected the doctrines of the trinity, immortal souls, a personal devil and literal demons.
wikipedia


Messiah Truth Project
The purpose of The Messiah Truth Project, Inc. is to provide educational resources and materials to the Jewish and B'nai Noach through on-line through VirtualYeshiva.com and MessiahTruth.com. Our materials are provided for free or minimal cost to enhance local education in Synagogues and Community Centers. A special focus is placed on College Campuses and Schools, where the missionary problem is most threatening. Outreach and exit counseling is available for Jews ensnared in the Messianic movement and other cult groups.

Nonprofit Report for MESSIAH TRUTH PROJECT


Nehemia Gordon
Nehemia Gordon (1972 &#8211 is a well known Karaite Jew Hakham. He was born to an Orthodox Jewish family with a long line of Rabbis, but rejected the Talmud and became a Karaite Jew as a teenager. Nehemia is a native of Chicago but has lived in Jerusalem, Israel since making Aliyah in 1993.
Nehemia Gordon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Richard Rubenstein
When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome

When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome: Richard E. Rubenstein: 9780156013154: Amazon.com: Books

this "work" is a disgraceful shoddy biased coverage - know rubenstein's personal interest and know why this is worthless.

Rubenstein is a Jewish sociologist (not an historian, nor a theologian), funded by Rockefeller think tanks; an editor at UNREST magazine;

The Editorial Cell | UNRESTMAGAZINE

Richard E. Rubenstein is University Professor of Conflict Resolution and Public Affairs at George Mason University and is a former director of ICAR. He teaches courses on theories of conflict, conflict and religion, conflict and empire, and conflict and literature, and writes books on these topics based on historical analysis and storytelling. His practical work involves attempts (with S-CAR colleagues and others) to introduce policymakers and media workers to new social and ethical paradigms that point in the direction of radical reform of violence-generating ideas and institutions. Rubenstein lives in Washington, DC with his life-partner, Susan Ryerson. He has four children and two grandchildren. He plays a middling brand of jazz piano. Visit Rich’s website: www.reasonstokill.com

and a leader at S-CAR
The School for Conflict Analysis and Resolution



other sources used positively by "The Trinity Delusion" owner:

Bart D. Ehrman (born 1955) is an American New Testament scholar, currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. While Ehrman is a leading New Testament scholar, he has also achieved acclaim at the popular level, authoring four New York Times bestsellers. His best-known works at the popular level are Misquoting Jesus and Jesus, Interrupted.[1] Ehrman's work focuses on New Testament textual criticism and early Christianity.

Religion Agnostic

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if you believe ehrman is an agnostic, i have a bridge to sell you.
look at his books.
and his affliations.


Unitarian sites such as:
Who is God | Library | 21st Century Reformation

etc etc etc.


since neither the owner of "The Trinity Delusion", nor "BlessedOneness" can read anything other than favorable arian doctrine, fringe unitarian and antichristian jewish sources, what is there to say?

go to "The Trinity Delusion" and if you can stomach it, watch a few sorry videos by the owner as he reads of a script cobbled together by his nonchristian sources. he exposes himself in the first few minutes of every one.

a simple debate over whether the word persons in trinity doctrine is reasonable is fine.
denying the deity of Christ or making Him a created entity who "was born again TWICE" is heresy.

 

[cenallen]

4. Everything Began with God's Word and Everything will End with God's Word.
Only a small amount of investigation is required to see that the expressions, "the first and the last," "the beginning and the end," and "the alpha and the omega" are all similar expressions which refer to God's Word as the place where all things began and all things will end.
All things began with God's spoken Word. Within that Word was God's eternal purpose and will for this creation. That Word became flesh and God's Eternal Purpose was summed up in Jesus. And that Word, now flesh, will come again to judge the world, the Last, the End, the Omega.

YAWN.
show us how God sat silently in eternity until He decided to speak and create Jesus.
just jewish subversion. as usual.
i checked your sources - all trace back to the enemies of the Cross. as usual.
goodbye.

 

[cenallen]

Funny how Jude distinguishes Yeshua from the one true God.

it is hidden from your eyes.
another jesus and another gospel.
cursed.

 

[Bea22]

really.
would you elaborate on this (preferably with/in the Greek) Bea22?

after establishing God's people are 'not God' yet 'have a measure of deity' in them, could you show where you found the preposition here:

They are not God though they have a measure of deity in them

and what does this kind of 'union' mean in real terms? and how has this shaped your view of Who Jesus Christ is?

Oneness I'm not even wasting my time answering back to because he needs to firstly accept that Jesus was more than man.

Cenallen, I know you are firmly against this idea of 'ye are gods' from observing your other posts in various threads; however, there are many scriptures supporting the belief that: If the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in us, it will quicken our mortal bodies. What Spirit is that? It is not a Spirit of man. That is how they - Bride and Bridegroom became one. She is not God, She does not have the fulness, She was created. She MUST have some or She is not part of Him. There are countless scriptures, all of which I'm sure you are aware of but considering your stance, you probably have some other idea about what they actually mean? There is a balance, and I remain firm in my beliefs of not leaning too far to one side and calling Her God, and yet believing She must have part of Him in Her in order to be part of Him. Thus my understanding of God is that He is One who can be manifested in various ways. Do you understand how a man and wife should be one? And how by One Spirit we are all baptised into one Body? And how Christ is the Head of that Body? It is a hard thing for men to understand, I think I've talked to many denominational people who believe in trinity so cannot fathom how this can be so. And there are those who take it too far and get imbalanced. As for the last question, I think I have answered in so many posts now who I believe Jesus Christ is. For the sake of not repeating myself, I won't.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. http://bible.cc/romans/8-10.htm
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. http://bible.cc/romans/8-13.htm
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. http://bible.cc/romans/8-15.htm
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: http://bible.cc/romans/8-17.htm
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.







This thread turned downhill quickly...

 

[Bea22]

Oneness I'm not even wasting my time answering back to because he needs to firstly accept that Jesus was more than man.

Cenallen, I know you are firmly against this idea of 'ye are gods' from observing your other posts in various threads; however, there are many scriptures supporting the belief that: If the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in us, it will quicken our mortal bodies. What Spirit is that? It is not a Spirit of man. That is how they - Bride and Bridegroom became one. She is not God, She does not have the fulness, She was created. She MUST have some or She is not part of Him. There are countless scriptures, all of which I'm sure you are aware of but considering your stance, you probably have some other idea about what they actually mean? There is a balance, and I remain firm in my beliefs of not leaning too far to one side and calling Her God, and yet believing She must have part of Him in Her in order to be part of Him. Thus my understanding of God is that He is One who can be manifested in various ways. Do you understand how a man and wife should be one? And how by One Spirit we are all baptised into one Body? And how Christ is the Head of that Body? It is a hard thing for men to understand, I think I've talked to many denominational people who believe in trinity so cannot fathom how this can be so. And there are those who take it too far and get imbalanced. As for the last question, I think I have answered in so many posts now who I believe Jesus Christ is. For the sake of not repeating myself, I won't.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.







This thread turned downhill quickly...

Unless I got the wrong person and you don't believe that ^ (reference to 'ye are gods' as Joyce Meyers or someone who believes that kind of thing)... I try to keep up to date with different people's beliefs by observing their posts, but apologise if it's not you or the assumptions that it looks like I am making there ^ ... it's not meant to be written in such a direct way, like a statement, more a question for your take on it, God bless

 

[Red33]

Unless I got the wrong person and you don't believe that ^ (reference to 'ye are gods' as Joyce Meyers or someone who believes that kind of thing)... I try to keep up to date with different people's beliefs by observing their posts, but apologise if it's not you or the assumptions that it looks like I am making there ^ ... it's not meant to be written in such a direct way, like a statement, more a question for your take on it, God bless

There is a few scriptures I know of that this understanding is based upon, including the fact that we are joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17) because we were buried with Him (Rom 6:4) and were raised with Him (Col 2:12)...

Ob 21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

Ps 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Jn 10:34,35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

The big difference is that the believer has received all these things, imputed (put on our account) by grace through the Holy Spirit and through Christ and His redemption that is provided to sinful man. It is absolutely true that the righteousness we have been given is the same righteousness of the Son (Rom 3:22, 4:11, 2Pt 1:1, 1Cor 1:30, Mt 5:20), or else we would have no righteousness to be accepted of the Father. To make a claim that we are gods in light of redemption would only mean that we belong to Him being purchased with a price and we can reveal Him through the Spirit when our hearts are filled with His love and grace and when we are being quickened by every word of God.

1Jn 4:15-17
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[BlessedOneness]

you and your sources are heretical.
i couldn't care less about men.


this posters' sources:

The Trinity Delusion
An Exposé of Christendom's Golden Calf

The Trinity Delusion: The False Doctrine of the Trinity

The following is an incomplete list of people who have contributed in some way to the information and/or conclusions on this site.

New Advent (Catholic website): Excellent and easy to use resource for early Christian writings.
Anthony Buzzard - miscellaneous facts and information which I have come across.
Jehovah's Witnesses: Collections of scholarly quotations (mostly quotations from Trinitarian Hebrew/Greek scholars concerning translation issues).
Christadelphians.org - miscellaneous information.
Robert Bowman (Trinitarian Apologist) - misc. apologetic information from a Trinitarian perspective. Also, his Trinity Outline and his document "Sharp's Rule and Antitrinitarian Theologies."
William M. Watchel (unknown) - important information regarding the word morphe at Philippians 2:6.
Daniel Wallace (Trinitarian Greek expert) - Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, important information regarding Colwell's Rule as it relates to John 1:1, his document "Sharp Redivivus" A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule, his document "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit," and misc. other writings.
Trinitarian Scholars - miscellaneous information from various scholars concerning the original language grammar or manuscript variant details of certain verses.
Messiah Truth Project (Jewish) - very important information regarding the intent of names in Isaiah and the details of the Hebrew text at Zechariah 12:10.
Berend de Boer (Trinitarian) - good information concerning the history of KJV version of 1 Timothy 3:16 in the early church.
Nehemia Gordon (unknown) - excellent website article on the word "Elohim."
Richard Rubenstein - some historical facts in his book on the Nicean-Arian controversy, "When Jesus became God" which confirmed my own research and conclusions and added a few more insights and facts.
Charles Freeman - historical facts in his book "A.D. 381" which substantially added to my own historical research.
Articuli Fidei, ?David Waltz? (unknown) - good listing of theosis quotations from the early Christians.


Anthony Buzzard

anyone who doesn't know who anthony buzzard really is should do a few background checks.

ex:
Sir Anthony F. Buzzard also explained that he had left the formerly Unitarian Worldwide Church of God after that denomination embraced orthodox doctrine in 1994 and he affiliated with the Church of God General Conference which maintains the Unitarian doctrine. The CGGC headquarters and college, Atlanta Bible College, where Sir Anthony is on staff, are located in Morrow, GA, a suburb of Atlanta.

Sir Anthony had given me his card and contacted me via e-mail soon after the conference, wishing to discuss further reasons why the New Testament gives no clear statement of Jesus' divinity or of the person of the Holy Spirit. When I looked up the web page of Anthony Buzzard's Restoration Fellowship, I was astonished to discover that this British gentleman had been nominated in 1996 for the Templeton Prize . This $1,000,000 "Prize for Progress in Religion" is given annually by New Age financier John Templeton at the World Parliament of Religions, which has included among the distinguished recipients Billy Graham, Bill Bright, Chuck Colson, Mother Teresa, Cardinal Suenens and various Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim leaders. This honor is advertised in Anthony Buzzard's Profile .
watchuntoprayer

Jehovah's Witnesses
what needs to be said here?


Christadelphians.org
he Christadelphians (a word created from the Greek for "Brethren in Christ";[1][2] cf. Colossians 1:2 — "brethren in Christ")[3][4] are a Christian group that developed in the United Kingdom and North America in the 19th century. The name was coined by John Thomas,[5] who was the group's founder. Christadelphians hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism.
Nevertheless, all the distinctive Christadelphian doctrines, down to interpretations of specific verses, can be found particularly among 16th century Socinian writers (e.g. the rejection of the doctrines of the trinity, pre-existence of Christ, immortal souls, a literal hell of fire, original sin)[124] Early English Unitarian writings also correspond closely to those of Christadelphians. Also, recent discoveries and research have shown a large similarity between Christadelphian beliefs and those held by Isaac Newton who, among other things, rejected the doctrines of the trinity, immortal souls, a personal devil and literal demons.
wikipedia


Messiah Truth Project
The purpose of The Messiah Truth Project, Inc. is to provide educational resources and materials to the Jewish and B'nai Noach through on-line through VirtualYeshiva.com and MessiahTruth.com. Our materials are provided for free or minimal cost to enhance local education in Synagogues and Community Centers. A special focus is placed on College Campuses and Schools, where the missionary problem is most threatening. Outreach and exit counseling is available for Jews ensnared in the Messianic movement and other cult groups.

Nonprofit Report for MESSIAH TRUTH PROJECT


Nehemia Gordon
Nehemia Gordon (1972 –) is a well known Karaite Jew Hakham. He was born to an Orthodox Jewish family with a long line of Rabbis, but rejected the Talmud and became a Karaite Jew as a teenager. Nehemia is a native of Chicago but has lived in Jerusalem, Israel since making Aliyah in 1993.
Nehemia Gordon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Richard Rubenstein
When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome

When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome: Richard E. Rubenstein: 9780156013154: Amazon.com: Books

this "work" is a disgraceful shoddy biased coverage - know rubenstein's personal interest and know why this is worthless.

Rubenstein is a Jewish sociologist (not an historian, nor a theologian), funded by Rockefeller think tanks; an editor at UNREST magazine;

The Editorial Cell | UNRESTMAGAZINE

Richard E. Rubenstein is University Professor of Conflict Resolution and Public Affairs at George Mason University and is a former director of ICAR. He teaches courses on theories of conflict, conflict and religion, conflict and empire, and conflict and literature, and writes books on these topics based on historical analysis and storytelling. His practical work involves attempts (with S-CAR colleagues and others) to introduce policymakers and media workers to new social and ethical paradigms that point in the direction of radical reform of violence-generating ideas and institutions. Rubenstein lives in Washington, DC with his life-partner, Susan Ryerson. He has four children and two grandchildren. He plays a middling brand of jazz piano. Visit Rich’s website: www.reasonstokill.com

and a leader at S-CAR
The School for Conflict Analysis and Resolution



other sources used positively by "The Trinity Delusion" owner:

Bart D. Ehrman (born 1955) is an American New Testament scholar, currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. While Ehrman is a leading New Testament scholar, he has also achieved acclaim at the popular level, authoring four New York Times bestsellers. His best-known works at the popular level are Misquoting Jesus and Jesus, Interrupted.[1] Ehrman's work focuses on New Testament textual criticism and early Christianity.

Religion Agnostic

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if you believe ehrman is an agnostic, i have a bridge to sell you.
look at his books.
and his affliations.


Unitarian sites such as:
Who is God | Library | 21st Century Reformation

etc etc etc.


since neither the owner of "The Trinity Delusion", nor "BlessedOneness" can read anything other than favorable arian doctrine, fringe unitarian and antichristian jewish sources, what is there to say?

go to "The Trinity Delusion" and if you can stomach it, watch a few sorry videos by the owner as he reads of a script cobbled together by his nonchristian sources. he exposes himself in the first few minutes of every one.

a simple debate over whether the word persons in trinity doctrine is reasonable is fine.
denying the deity of Christ or making Him a created entity who "was born again TWICE" is heresy.

Your whole basis for rejecting me is because it's not orthodoxy. That's all you have. Again, this is just an appeal to the approval of men and nothing more.

 

[BlessedOneness]

YAWN.
show us how God sat silently in eternity until He decided to speak and create Jesus.
just jewish subversion. as usual.
i checked your sources - all trace back to the enemies of the Cross. as usual.
goodbye.

1. I never said God was silent.
2. Enemies of the cross? More like enemies to your orthodoxy. There's a difference, you know.

it is hidden from your eyes.
another jesus and another gospel.
cursed.

Hidden? Your arguments have no substance. You appeal to ad hominems and to the bandwagon. Nothing more.

 

[psychomom]

There is a few scriptures I know of that this understanding is based upon, including the fact that we are joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17) because we were buried with Him (Rom 6:4) and were raised with Him (Col 2:12)...

Ob 21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

Ps 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Jn 10:34,35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

The big difference is that the believer has received all these things, imputed (put on our account) by grace through the Holy Spirit and through Christ and His redemption that is provided to sinful man. It is absolutely true that the righteousness we have been given is the same righteousness of the Son (Rom 3:22, 4:11, 2Pt 1:1, 1Cor 1:30, Mt 5:20), or else we would have no righteousness to be accepted of the Father. To make a claim that we are gods in light of redemption would only mean that we belong to Him being purchased with a price and we can reveal Him through the Spirit when our hearts are filled with His love and grace and when we are being quickened by every word of God.

1Jn 4:15-17
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

What I have learned of the verses in John 10 (quoting Psalm 82) is that the Psalm from which Jesus quotes refers to magistrates, or judges, and in that way it applies to the believer.
Would you agree with that? Is that why you lead us to the scripture in 1 John?

Thanks-
ellie

 

[BlessedOneness]

Oneness I'm not even wasting my time answering back to because he needs to firstly accept that Jesus was more than man.

Sigh... I've been there. Believed it hard. I was telling people all about this Godman... And then I found out I was wrong, big time. And I had to apologise for spreading lies. I'm still in the process of doing that, as I randomly bump into people I know now and again.

Yeshua is a man who had - and still has - a God. You show me a person who has a God and I'll show you someone who is not God.

It's that simple. The logic behind Godman theology, as clever as it sounds, is all based on crafty doublespeak.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.