Is the "Trinity" False?

[cenallen]

After providing all that, I think it's fair to point out that I was never given an explanation of the single verse I put forward.

1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

I've yet to be given a satisfactory explanation of this verse from those who believe Yeshua is God.

even a babe in Christ understands what that means.
you however, are not in Christ, but are outside looking in.
too much time around rabbis.

you have no claim to His Holy Name, so come back later after being born again, God willing.

 

[BlessedOneness]

even a babe in Christ understands what that means.
you however, are not in Christ, but are outside looking in.
too much time around rabbis.

you have no claim to His Holy Name, so come back later after being born again, God willing.

Ah, the old "carnal thinking" or "outsider" argument. Just because I don't subscribe to your unspoken take on the verse (I can only assume that we don't agree!), it must mean that I'm not in the anointed one. Sure, let's all make ad hominems and see how far we get in coming to a better understanding of what the bible teaches.

 

[cenallen]

Ah, the old "carnal thinking" or "outsider" argument. Just because I don't subscribe to your unspoken take on the verse (I can only assume that we don't agree!), it must mean that I'm not in the anointed one. Sure, let's all make ad hominems and see how far we get in coming to a better understanding of what the bible teaches.

what did Jesus teach, do you know?

εἰ οὖν Δαυὶδ καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον, πῶς υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἐστιν;

 

[BlessedOneness]

εἰ οὖν Δαυὶδ καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον, πῶς υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἐστιν;

ועתה אם דוד קרא לו אדון איך הוא בנו׃



run along now.
and stop using the κύριον name in vain.

Quite an arrogant attitude there. What's your source for the Hebrew?

 

[BlessedOneness]

what did Jesus teach, do you know?

εἰ οὖν Δαυὶδ καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον, πῶς υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἐστιν;

Yeshua is Adoni, not ADONAI.

 

[cenallen]

Yeshua is Adoni, not ADONAI.

כה אמר יהוה מלך ישראל וגאלו יהוה צבאות אני ראשון ואני אחרון ומבלעדי אין אלהים׃

 

[cenallen]

Quite an arrogant attitude there. What's your source for the Hebrew?

you jews never give up.
cursed.

 

[BlessedOneness]

כה אמר יהוה מלך ישראל וגאלו יהוה צבאות אני ראשון ואני אחרון ומבלעדי אין אלהים׃

What does Isaiah 44:6 have to do with this?

 

[BlessedOneness]

you jews never give up.
cursed.

I'm not a Jew. Why must you (falsely) judge me?

 

[cenallen]

What does Isaiah 44:6 have to do with this?

i rest my case.
heretic.

 

[BlessedOneness]

i rest my case.
heretic.

Well done. Perhaps you should be a lawyer?

 

[cenallen]

they don't mind bringing in a philosophical Godman/dual-nature Yeshua doctrine, which was formulated by the same stock of men who came up with the Trinity.

So putting all that aside, what if this was simply the basic truth of it all:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5)

talk on wise one.
tell us when your christ the man became your G-d's 'anointed' messiah.
would that be at his baptism?
when mary wiped his feet?
when they placed a crown of thorns upon his head?


Matthew 1 18 And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit, 19 and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing to make her an example, did wish privately to send her away. 20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit, 21 and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.' 22 And all this hath come to pass, that it may be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, 23 Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted 'With us he is God.' 24 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, 25 and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

 

[cenallen]

Well done. Perhaps you should be a lawyer?

i'm not wading through this thread to see your best argument. you don't have one.
but go ahead and put it all in one post.
cite your sources.
all of them.

 

[BlessedOneness]

talk on wise one.
tell us when your christ the man became your G-d's 'anointed' messiah.
would that be at his baptism?
when mary wiped his feet?
when they placed a crown of thorns upon his head?


Matthew 1 18 And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit, 19 and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing to make her an example, did wish privately to send her away. 20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit, 21 and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.' 22 And all this hath come to pass, that it may be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, 23 Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted 'With us he is God.' 24 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, 25 and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Why not move along? There must be better things to do with your time than to act as a troll. And also I could just as easily use your "outsider" argument to fend off your questions.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

Ah, the old "carnal thinking" or "outsider" argument. Just because I don't subscribe to your unspoken take on the verse (I can only assume that we don't agree!), it must mean that I'm not in the anointed one. Sure, let's all make ad hominems and see how far we get in coming to a better understanding of what the bible teaches.

Hi
Unfortunately there are Trinitarians who demand a person believes Christ is the one true God himself for salvation, though it is interesting to note, this is not demanded from the pulpits of the Trinitarian churches in Britain at least, only that a person believes Christ is th son of God
I hope you will rest in a certain fact.
Christ plainly stated when he walked this earth there is one true God, the Father and the Father is greater than he.
It is preposterous for anyone to believe a person will be thrown into a lake of fire for believing, and standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. Such is the futility of the wisdom of man

However, you will I am sure on websites such as these be given wonderful theological explanations as to that not being the case
I note you are unsure as to what you would be classed as spiritually
If you believe Christ is the only begotten son of God, he died foryour sins and you repent of them and ask him into your life as Lord and Saviour you are, Biblically speaking saved. Unfortunately you may not be according to mans doctrine. Ignore anything that conradicts the biblical requirement of belief for salvation, that's my 'umble advice

 

[cenallen]

Why not move along? There must be better things to do with your time than to act as a troll. And also I could just as easily use your "outsider" argument to fend off your questions.

not a chance.
let's see your best argument.

one post.

meanwhile we'll see who built your favorite site.

 

[BlessedOneness]

not a chance.
let's see your best argument.

one post.

meanwhile we'll see who built your favorite site.

I'm sorry but I hardly see a good, productive reason to discuss matters with someone who displays an arrogant, disrespectful, un-Christlike attitude.

 

[cenallen]

I'm sorry but I hardly see a good, productive reason to discuss matters with someone who displays an arrogant, disrespectful, un-Christlike attitude.

productive?
you are a destroyer. destructive. not productive at all.
i have no obligation whatsoever to treat you with respect.

just look at the heresy mixed into in this post.

I haven't read past the first page, so hopefully my reply isn't rehashing things. I went through just that first page and addressed the list of Scripture people compiled as evidence for Jesus being God.

Basically, here's my stance in a nutshell: Jesus is NOT God; rather, He is the Word of God - and that is a big difference, one which I hope you will see if you can bear with me.

John 1:1-14 – What “Word” is John referring to? The Logos, which is to do with mind, thought, rationale (logic), spoken thought (word), expression.


John 1:1 is telling us WHAT the Word was – God, or more accurately those qualities or attributes which are of God. So we're being told that the Word is godly, or divine. It's very clear if you look at the Greek; we are not being told “who” but “what.” In other words, the Word isn't being presented as a distinct divine person from the Father.


John 1:3 – God made all things through His Word – refer to the repetition of “God said” in Gen 1. And before anyone objects that the masculine pronoun must indicate a person distinct from God (the Father), in the Greek there is no hard rule to interpret this as such. The pronouns used could just have well be interpreted as “it,” or “this.” It depends on the context with how the Greek is to be translated.


John 1:10 – Similar thing to 1:3. Both times “by” has been translated from the Greek “di',” which is not so much to do with authorship but “through” or “by means of.” The problem with translating to English is that our “by” has a much larger scope with how we can understand it. God's reason for all of creation was for this very moment in history, when He would send forth His Son. He planned everything to the minutest detail for when Jesus would make His entrance.


John 1:14 – How was the Word made flesh? Firstly, God is love, and as such His expression is love. Quite clearly, Jesus is the expression of God's love. Secondly, God's Word became a man because of the following:


“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deut 18:18)


Confirmed by Stephen that this is Jesus:
“...Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.” (Acts 7:37)


And, if that's not enough, Jesus said it Himself:
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)


The book of Hebrews expresses this as well:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;” (Heb 1:1-2)



Prophets before Jesus were, in a sense, a Word of God – that's what made them prophets. They bore a message, an expression of God, but they were not the totality of God's expression, THE Word of God.



Titus 2:13 is no proof-text that Jesus is God. There is no reason to interpret the Greek “doxa” from being the noun “glory” into “glorious.” That changes the whole meaning of the sentence. The verse should more accurately be rendered:

“Awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”


Jesus is the glory of His Father:
"For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27a)


John 10:30 – One in purpose. Jesus executes His Father's orders. He and His Father were all for bringing about our salvation.


John 8:58 – While there is debate on whether Jesus' phrase, “I am,” is in reference to the revelation of God's name given to Moses in Ex 3, it nonetheless is not to be confused with Jesus claiming to be God. Jesus spoke the words of His Father – in other words, His words were not His own! Think of it like Isaiah, or various angels in time past, who spoke on behalf of YHWH. They spoke as if they were YHWH Himself – but, of course, we never confuse them to be YHWH.


John 20:28 – Thomas had in mind TWO persons when He made this exclamation. The Greek makes that crystal clear. He saw a noun, a man, standing in front of him – his Lord. To see this man was to see a verb, God the Father. Thomas finally understood John 14:9-10:
“Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”


To see Jesus is to see His Father. Jesus explains this as so because He was speaking and doing the things of His Father. It was His Father who was doing the works. It was His Father who resurrected Jesus. God is invisible, so the only way to see Him is through the effects or actions He does. To see the noun was to see the verb. To see the resurrected man was to see the works of God.


When you can see that, you can quite clearly see that Thomas never thought that Jesus was God.


Matt 1:23 – Immanuel, being “God with us” does not mean the man Jesus is God. God tabernacled in this man and that's how God was with the people back then. Similarly, those who follow Christ also have God tabernacling in them. No on thinks they're God for this reason, though. God's with us, but none of us are God.


Is 9:6 is not intended to describe the Messiah but that of which God was accomplishing through the man. It is in this man, and through this man, that God does these things. Look at other names in Isaiah, such as Shear-jashub (meaning “a remnant shall return”) (Is 7:3), and Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Is 8:3). These weren't names intended to describe the child, but to give a sign of what God was doing.


Also, it was not uncommon for Israeli children to be given names which honoured or described God in some way – for example, Isaac (God laughs), Samuel (God has heard), just to list a couple.


John 10:33 – The Jews considered it blasphemy that Jesus was claiming to be equal with God, not that He claimed to actually be God.


Acts 4:12 – Jesus has been given the name (more to do with authority, really) by God the Father. It is by His authority that we are saved.


Phil 2:5-7 – The “form” of God which Jesus had was not to do with Him being divine by nature. It has been translated from the Greek “morphe,” which has the idea of “status” in mind. Jesus had the status of God, because God had granted Him the authority to enact on His behalf.


1 Tim 3:16 – It is now well-known that it was a “scribal error” to insert “God” into the text. Also, if we keep reading, we would come to the absurd conclusion that God was “justified in the Spirit,” amongst other illogicalities.


Furthermore, “godliness” is a translation from the Greek “eusebias,” which has more to do with reverent piety. “Godliness” is about as close as we can render it in English, but it gives the original Greek a larger scope of meaning than was ever intended.


On another note, this is not the only time that Paul refers to a “mystery.” See 2 Tim 1:8-9:
“Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began”



Now, compare that to Rom 16:25:
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began”



And Eph 1:9-10:
“Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”


Eph 3:9:
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”


Simply put, Christ is the fleshly manifestation of God's mystery.


And lastly, even if the verse did include “God,” it still doesn't make Jesus to be God. Jesus made the Father known, so God was indeed manifested, or revealed, in flesh, in the man Jesus Christ.


Heb 1:8-9 – Read the original Old Testament context of the passage. It comes from Ps 45, a psalm which was dedicated to the wedding of David and a princess from Tyre. Here's how it starts out:
“My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.” (Ps 45:1-5)



Quite clearly, the focus is on king David.



Now we get to verses 6-7, but with the typical translation we run into a problem...
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. ”



Is David to be seen as God? No, of course not. Note also that verse 8 speaks of David's garments. So it is highly unlikely that the psalmist went from talking about David in v1-5 to then God in v6, and then back to David in v7-8.



An entirely possible, and more accurate, translation is, “Thy throne, the God,” or to make more sense in English, “Thy throne of God.” David was appointed and anointed as the king of Israel, who sat on the throne of God. Refer to 1 Chron 29:23:
“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.”



Rev 1:8 – No indication if this was Jesus speaking, but in any case refer to the first verse of the book:
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...” (Rev 1:1a)



Jesus continues to be the Word of His Father. Just because He speaks the revelation doesn't mean that He is personally identifying Himself with that revelation.



Rev 22:13 – Again, Jesus' Words are not His own; don't confuse it.



1 Cor 12:3 – No indication of Jesus being called God here. “Lord” is a title of authority that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus. Refer to Matt 28:18, Acts 2:34-36, Ps 110:1, Acts 17:31 and Phil 2:9.



And Jesus became life-giving Spirit at His resurrection (1 Cor 15:45, 2 Cor 3:17).



John 20:31 – “Son of God” not “God.”



1 John 2:22 – Nothing to do with supposedly denying Christ as God.



1 John 5:1 – We are all begotten of God as well. Refer to John 3:3 – the correct translation is “born/begotten from above,” not “born again.”



Phil 2:11 – Again, “Lord” referring to authority, not divinity.



John 3:16 – Jesus is no longer the only-begotten Son. At the time of His ministry, He was though – until the day of Pentecost changed all that.



John 14:23 – Look at the entire context of this chapter. I believe it is more to do with the rapture, the time when Jesus will take up the church, and He will make His (and His Father's) home our home.



But regardless, if you want to take the verse as referring to the receiving of the Holy Spirit, the nature of the Father is His Holy Spirit, and Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection, whereby He becomes a life-giving Spirit to all those who believe in Him.

http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=611486

this should be any easy one for you to prove.

Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection

LET'S SEE IT IN THE GREEK OR HEBREW OR ANY LANGUAGE.
cite your sources.

i've seen all this before a thousand times from jews trying to undo who Christ is.
so let's have your very strongest argument.

 

[BlessedOneness]

productive?
you are a destroyer. destructive. not productive at all.
i have no obligation whatsoever to treat you with respect.

just look at the heresy mixed into in this post.




http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=611486

this should be any easy one for you to prove.

Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection

LET'S SEE IT IN THE GREEK OR HEBREW OR ANY LANGUAGE.
cite your sources.

i've seen all this before a thousand times from jews trying to undo who Christ is.
so let's have your very strongest argument.

You're good at making claims, I'll give you that. But anything past that seems to be beyond you.

 

[cenallen]

Well done. Perhaps you should be a lawyer?

walk us through Isaiah.
use Isaiah to prove Jesus is not GOD.
in any language you want.