Is the "Trinity" False?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well, that's a first.
Let's clear something up because, as with everyone, I like to really understand exactly what people are saying so there are no miscommunications.

You are saying that Jesus was not God because He was in flesh?
And ... that He did all the miracles and healings and knew the thoughts of people's hearts, like the Samaritan woman, and cast out demons and raised the dead and calmed the sea and walked on water....
How exactly?

Also..... Did you know there is only ONE place in all of the bible that explains just how the (3); the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all one? Not only that....but the explanation is told by Jesus Himself?

But I'm sure you have read that already!

.
 
The same way ALL of the prophets and men and women of God performed ALL of those miracles in the OT AND the NT!

God gave them the ability to do it!


If Jesus was 100% God while here on earth WHO could kill Him? What human being could kill God?

If He was 100% God that would mean He was a spirit being;

John 4
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now let's read what a spirit does NOT have;

Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Now let's read what Jesus had;

John 19
[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Acts 2
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So....which is it? Was Jesus 100% man? Or was He 100% God?

He couldn't be both a flesh and blood being AND a spirit being at the same time!


.

This has to be the most ridiculous question posed. Jesus Christ was both flesh and God. To deny that He was God simply because He was in flesh shows carnal understanding of the power of God to manifest Himself in whichever way He wants.
If you cannot read the scripture of His conception by the Holy Spirit - not BY MAN - which says that His name is Emmanuel meaning God with us, and believe it for what it says then you are saying that Jesus was just a man.
Jesus was just a man given power from God? Like everyone else in the OT and NT?
Then you are denying the deity of Christ. He was a flesh vessel not conceived in sin, in which the fulness of the Godhead BODILY is.
 
This has to be the most ridiculous question posed. Jesus Christ was both flesh and God. To deny that He was God simply because He was in flesh shows carnal understanding of the power of God to manifest Himself in whichever way He wants.
If you cannot read the scripture of His conception by the Holy Spirit - not BY MAN - which says that His name is Emmanuel meaning God with us, and believe it for what it says then you are saying that Jesus was just a man.
Jesus was just a man given power from God? Like everyone else in the OT and NT?
Then you are denying the deity of Christ. He was a flesh vessel not conceived in sin, in which the fulness of the Godhead BODILY is.

How about answering the scriptures that were presented?


If He was 100% God that would mean He was a spirit being;

John 4
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now let's read what a spirit does NOT have;

Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Now let's read what Jesus had;

John 19
[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Acts 2
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So....which is it? Was Jesus 100% man? Or was He 100% God?

He couldn't be both a flesh and blood being AND a spirit being at the same time!

.
 
This has to be the most ridiculous question posed. Jesus Christ was both flesh and God. To deny that He was God simply because He was in flesh shows carnal understanding of the power of God to manifest Himself in whichever way He wants.
If you cannot read the scripture of His conception by the Holy Spirit - not BY MAN - which says that His name is Emmanuel meaning God with us, and believe it for what it says then you are saying that Jesus was just a man.
Jesus was just a man given power from God? Like everyone else in the OT and NT?
Then you are denying the deity of Christ. He was a flesh vessel not conceived in sin, in which the fulness of the Godhead BODILY is.

Also..... Did you know there is only ONE place in all of the bible that explains just how the (3); the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all one? Not only that....but the explanation is told by Jesus Himself?



.
 
The trinity is something that's bugged me for a while. Reading this thread only made my head heart as everyone has their points. I always pray that I understand everything correctly but I always get confused. The bible never says anything about the trinity. At the same time I don't wanna deny Christ's deity or offend God with heretical beliefs. But how can I be Saved if I don't understand?

Things I know from the Bible:
There is only ONE God. One Savior. One Lord. One Creator. God.
Jesus is the Son of God (but also called Son of Man?)
Jesus and the Father are Equal
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
Jesus is the lamb of God. The perfect sacrifice. Only God is without sin.
So Jesus is God.
Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God.
Since there is only one savior, God, Jesus is God.

This is where it gets tricky but also in the bible...
Jesus, while on earth, was an example to man. He prayed to the Father as we are supposed to. He was separate enough where he could pray to the Father. He was human enough where he could die. The spirit of God raised him up on the 3rd day. The Father knew stuff Jesus did not. Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father. That implies 3 beings. But there is only One God.

I've heard the arguments for well you could be husband father and son all at the same time. But that is different. The husband cannot pray to the father self. He is all at the same time. Jesus and the Father are clearly more apart in the Garden than this human example as he's praying to the father and questioning the Fathers ways. He also says only the father knows the day of the Sons return.

But the question about who would you bow down too is a good one. There cannot be 3 gods... But the Son and the Father are clearly distinct... But I know God doesn't have multiple personalities.

The best way I guess I think I can understand it for myself at this particular time... God can express himself in different ways and somehow at the same time. I guess like water? You have all the water in the planet. H2O... God. The water on this planet can be in multiple forms at the same time.... Clouds, Sea, and Ice Caps or Snow. But it's all H20... But you wouldn't call the Ice "Sea" or the Sea "Clouds" or the clouds "Ice". But they are still all one. Just a different form of H20... So I guess I see God like that... The Holy Spirit is a spiritual expression of God. Jesus is a Human/Earthly expression of Himself. And God the Father is a Heavenly expression. And I guess... to keep using my example... Jesus praying to God is like if you had a children's book where the Sea is talking to the Clouds. H20 talking to H20. But the clouds will snow down in the mountains. Melt into the sea. And go up to the clouds. So they're all one too. And so God... talking to God... Father talking to Son.

That's how I think I come to understand it the best at the moment. A little childish but it keeps it simple and seems to make sense to me. I really just thought about the cloud talking to the Sea thing as I was typing at the end but that actually made my head feel a lot clearer on this whole subject =)

I just pray God understands I'm trying to understand him and knows that if I don't get it 100% right or figure it all out, he won't send me away when I see him.
 
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
 
Once again...
For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. Job 33:14

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, WE speak that WE do know, and testify that WE have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you EARTHLY things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY things?
John 3:11-12
"The Godhead"

Cf. 1 John 5:5-10

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are THREE that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these THREE AGREE IN ONE. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is GREATER: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth NOT God hath made him a LIAR; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
How about answering the scriptures that were presented?


If He was 100% God that would mean He was a spirit being;

John 4
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now let's read what a spirit does NOT have;

Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Now let's read what Jesus had;

John 19
[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Acts 2
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So....which is it? Was Jesus 100% man? Or was He 100% God?

He couldn't be both a flesh and blood being AND a spirit being at the same time!

.

How about taking the time to read what I've already posted and not asking me to repeat myself?

:)
 
Once again...
For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. Job 33:14

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, WE speak that WE do know, and testify that WE have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you EARTHLY things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY things?
John 3:11-12
"The Godhead"

Cf. 1 John 5:5-10

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are THREE that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these THREE AGREE IN ONE. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is GREATER: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth NOT God hath made him a LIAR; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

You still haven't concisely - and deliberately - put forth your understanding of scriptures of how these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit came to be in the beginning (manifestation), where they are now (manifestation), and where they will be in the end (manifestation).
I do not mean location. I mean form, or manifestation. I mean whether in Spirit or in body, form, or in another?
I ask any christian with a trinitarian belief to clearly explain where each of these three persons of the Godhead can be found, how they originated and how they will be in future. I have already expressed my beliefs about how these came to be manifested, it would be nice if someone could explain their interpretation of the scripture instead of just using scripture which everyone reads but has different interpretations of. It seems like no one can quite clearly explain their own beliefs.

To be quite clear, I ask if the three distinct persons are all God, in what form or manner were they God ORIGINALLY? In agreement? In Spirit? In body? How?
To be quite clear, I ask were there three eternal spirits in the beginning or One? I ask were there three Fathers - Eternal beings- in the beginning or One? I ask if there is only One Father, at what point, according to your beliefs, did there become a Son, and a Holy Spirit? Please explain quite distinctly, like I have in previous posts.
To be quite clear, I ask where is the Father - Eternal being - when Jesus Christ is on the throne?
I ask why you would bow down - as every knee shall bow - to Jesus Christ if the Father - Eternal being - is seated next to Him and why you will not bow to the Father also? I also ask where is the Holy Spirit at the time?
To be quite clear, I ask how Jesus Christ can say that He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, and that before Abraham was I AM, if He was not?
To be quite clear, I ask who is the Bridegroom of the Bride mentioned in Rev 22? I further ask, how these two, Bridegroom and Bride be one - as what signifies a oneness. Think in terms of echad, a man and a wife becoming one. If echad is a plurality to describe three persons in the Godhead, does that mean the Bride is part of the Godhead too? Or does it mean that they are one in Spirit, because surely they are not One in flesh.
Following on, I ask, if the custom of the earthly bride is to take on the name of her earthly groom, what name should the Bride of Christ take on in the waters of baptism, signifying She is committing Herself to Him? Should She take on all three titles, or should She take on the name of Her future Husband?
In whose Name do we cast out devils? At whose Name will every knee bow and every tongue confess?
Whose Spirit is promised to dwell in His people, so they may be one, even as the Father and He are ONE (echad)?

Echad is the meaning of the term One in Deuteronomy 6:4.
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Echad is found hundreds of times in the scriptures and is used for a man and wife becoming one, and to describe one people, with one language.

It appears this One God is manifested in many ways, yet remains One. By Spirit? Yes by One Spirit are we all baptised into one body. God is an Eternal Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
So is He three Spirits? He is One Spirit - and it pleased Him to dwell in fulness in Jesus Christ, and it also pleases Him to dwell in measure in His people. Making them part of the Godhead? No. They are not God though they have a measure of deity in them. Where is the fulness?
It is not at ANY OTHER NAME but Jesus Christ that every knee shall bow because He is the first and the last and there are no other gods beside Him.

Anyway, feel free to answer as best you can. For now, I am going to be silent on this matter because I am not here to convert. I wrote on this to defend my beliefs against being called 'heresy'.
Now, I am on the offense lol. I can link it to back in history to how the Apostles baptised in the name of Jesus Christ - there are manuscripts found before Nicaea that were published in the Time Magazine that say that they did it that way, there are scriptures which say they did it that way.
Nicaea was organised by a Roman Emperor who was not fully converted and He tried to mix paganism with Christianity and they organised and brought out one doctrine and a term 'trinity' and a belief that God is three distinct persons, and it was around the time of the Pergamos church age where God said He wasn't pleased with the church for taking on doctrines of the Nicolaitanes, which by reading Rev 2 you can see is the same thing God hated all the way through the church ages, and is the Roman catholic church before they were known as that and then later (who coincidentally follow the trinity and base most of their beliefs on Nicene creed) - and God likens it to what Balaam and Balak did, which you can read about in the story in OT, and references in NT which basically say that Balaam was offered money and position / power to curse God's people. And references in Jude (read the whole chapter) where it says 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
And 2 Peter 2 the whole chapter refers to 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And mentions what Balaam did, and goes on to say
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

As you know, the Nicaea council was formed to bring the christians out of the oppression of the Roman Empire by Constantine, however he wasn't fully converted, he had the best intentions, as did the people that attended, including many bishops and martyrs. The intentions were good but it was the first ecumenical church.
As you also may be aware, the Nicolaitanes are mentioned in the church of Ephesus scriptures, Rev 2, where God said the Ephesus church hates the Nicolaitanes, like He does.
Then moving on to the Pergamos church age, which was around the time of Nicaea Council, God addresses the Pergamos church and says they've taken on doctrines of the Nicolaitanes, which He hates.

The key is working out exactly who the Nicolaitanes are and what their doctrine was. Though there is debate about who they were, and outlandish stories about what their doctrine could've been, God gives clues in Rev 2, 2 Peter 2, and Jude.. and He says He hates them. But if you know much about history, or ask the Jews, they will say it was always monotheism for them, and polytheism crept into the churches.
Of course people say it was the other way around.

Anyway......... I'm leaving this thread for now. Don't miss me :)
 
Both Modalism and Trinitarianism pose unnecessary problems. It is hardly helpful to bring in outside foreign (Greek) philosophy into our understanding of the bible. If words mean anything, God is simply one identity known as YHWH, and Yeshua is the Son of this one identity.

Having once been a Oneness believer, I know of the "great debate" between Modalism and the Trinity. Each accuses the other of this and that, but what if neither is correct? What if Yeshua wasn't really God, but was God's anointed Son as he emphatically stated time and again?

Oneness believers use the Old Testament to prove that God is a singular Person. In response, Trinitarians refer to New Testament to identify Yeshua as a distinct person from his Father. Both sides are inconsistent in their arguments, because the premises used to argue one side of their doctrine isn't used across the board. For instance, if one argues that an "I" identifies a person, then this must be consistently recognised, otherwise it's a null argument to say it holds true in one place but not in another.

Furthermore, Oneness asserts that the Trinity is nowhere to be found in the bible, but rather is outside philosophy coming in to pervert it. What's ironic about this is that they don't mind bringing in a philosophical Godman/dual-nature Yeshua doctrine, which was formulated by the same stock of men who came up with the Trinity.

So putting all that aside, what if this was simply the basic truth of it all:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5)
 
Furthermore, Oneness asserts that the Trinity is nowhere to be found in the bible, but rather is outside philosophy coming in to pervert it. What's ironic about this is that they don't mind bringing in a philosophical Godman/dual-nature Yeshua doctrine, which was formulated by the same stock of men who came up with the Trinity.
While you are at it, maybe say which 'stock of men came up with 'Godman/dual-nature Yeshua doctrine that also came up with Trinity?

So putting all that aside, what if this was simply the basic truth of it all:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5)

.... Isn't it also written that Jesus Christ is God?
Not just a man. So to pull the above scripture out where it says 'man Christ Jesus' is forgetting that He is also God.

So then what must be considered is if He is also God, is it God in flesh, or God in Spirit, or both?

:) God Bless
out for now
 
While you are at it, maybe say which 'stock of men came up with 'Godman/dual-nature Yeshua doctrine that also came up with Trinity?

The Council of Chalcedon, held in 451 AD, which is often regarded as the Fourth Ecumenical Council. Those that presided and attended the council were Trinitarians.

.... Isn't it also written that Jesus Christ is God?
Not just a man. So to pull the above scripture out where it says 'man Christ Jesus' is forgetting that He is also God.

So then what must be considered is if He is also God, is it God in flesh, or God in Spirit, or both?

It is not written that Yeshua the anointed one is the God who anointed him. That is your first false assumption, and which sadly comes as a result of most likely your trust in Trinitarian translations. And that's another irony for Oneness: Can't accept their doctrine but glad to accept their translation. Bibles are full of Trinitarian bias. Without the bias, though, Oneness wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

1 Tim 2:5 cannot be refuted. There is no bias to this scripture; no issues in translation; no problem in interpretation. What's a mediator? A middle-person who goes between two parties, right? Paul identifies the mediator here as "the man Christ Jesus," and not the "one God." According to the definition of a mediator, by identity, one cannot be their own mediator. A mediator who mediates on behalf of two or more parties cannot be, by identity, either of those parties.
 
Trinity trinity blah blah. The fact that you argue and call each other stupid matters more than silly doctrinal technicalities.

Its down to how you take it.

I see God as God, Jesus as Jesus (both human and divine), and the Holy Spirit as 'the message, the word, God, love and charity'.

Simples :)
 
The Council of Chalcedon, held in 451 AD, which is often regarded as the Fourth Ecumenical Council. Those that presided and attended the council were Trinitarians.



It is not written that Yeshua the anointed one is the God who anointed him. That is your first false assumption, and which sadly comes as a result of most likely your trust in Trinitarian translations. And that's another irony for Oneness: Can't accept their doctrine but glad to accept their translation. Bibles are full of Trinitarian bias. Without the bias, though, Oneness wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

1 Tim 2:5 cannot be refuted. There is no bias to this scripture; no issues in translation; no problem in interpretation. What's a mediator? A middle-person who goes between two parties, right? Paul identifies the mediator here as "the man Christ Jesus," and not the "one God." According to the definition of a mediator, by identity, one cannot be their own mediator. A mediator who mediates on behalf of two or more parties cannot be, by identity, either of those parties.

Perhaps I am little behind the times here but (1Tim 3:16) reveals something very inspired about our Lord Jesus Christ, yet rationalized away from the truth it contains...

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Let's break it down this way:

God was... referring to the incarnation (Jn 1:1-3,14, Jn 5:18, Phil 2:6, Jn 20:28)

- manifest in the flesh (Christ)
- justified in the Spirit (Christ)
- seen of angels (Christ)
- preached unto the Gentiles (Christ)
- believed on in the world (Christ)
- received up into glory (Christ)

Is there anyone other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God, being referred to in this inspired scripture? Can it be refuted, is it being interpreted or translated in a bias manner? Even if you refuse to accept the translations from the manuscripts that use the word (Theos) you have much to deal with in (Heb 1:8-10). You also have to explain (Jn 14:6-10) and why Jesus was to be called Emmanuel in (Mt 1:23, Is 7:14)
 
So is He three Spirits? He is One Spirit - and it pleased Him to dwell in fulness in Jesus Christ, and it also pleases Him to dwell in measure in His people. Making them part of the Godhead? No. They are not God though they have a measure of deity in them.
really.
would you elaborate on this (preferably with/in the Greek) Bea22?

after establishing God's people are 'not God' yet 'have a measure of deity' in them, could you show where you found the preposition here:

They are not God though they have a measure of deity in them

and what does this kind of 'union' mean in real terms? and how has this shaped your view of Who Jesus Christ is?
 
Perhaps I am little behind the times here but (1Tim 3:16) reveals something very inspired about our Lord Jesus Christ, yet rationalized away from the truth it contains...

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Let's break it down this way:

God was... referring to the incarnation (Jn 1:1-3,14, Jn 5:18, Phil 2:6, Jn 20:28)

- manifest in the flesh (Christ)
- justified in the Spirit (Christ)
- seen of angels (Christ)
- preached unto the Gentiles (Christ)
- believed on in the world (Christ)
- received up into glory (Christ)

Is there anyone other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God, being referred to in this inspired scripture? Can it be refuted, is it being interpreted or translated in a bias manner? Even if you refuse to accept the translations from the manuscripts that use the word (Theos) you have much to deal with in (Heb 1:8-10). You also have to explain (Jn 14:6-10) and why Jesus was to be called Emmanuel in (Mt 1:23, Is 7:14)

Yes, I reject the variant. "Theos" was clearly not written by Paul. And strangely enough, it was never brought up during the Arian controversy of the 4th Century. What's also worth noting is what "godliness" means here, as it is not a cognate to "god." The word is more to do with right worship unto God. Who displayed that - God, or Yeshua? The answer is pretty straightforward.

As for your other verses you mentioned, it would be much simpler for me to link you to a site which goes into considerable detail. However, I would not want to get into any strife by posting a website to what some may see as teaching "unbiblical" doctrine. So... If you're interested, google "trinity delusion." It's the first link there.

Hebrews 1:8
Standard Trinitarian bias here. If we do a literal translation:
"unto however the son the throne of you the god"
Granted, that doesn't make much sense. But what this shows is that the standard Greek definite article, "ho," has been oddly translated as "o" instead of "the." There really is no basis to do that.

Furthermore, if we consider the context of where this verse appears in the OT - Psalm 45 - we'll see that the typical Trinitarian translation sticks out like a sore thumb:
"My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
This psalm was dedicated to the marriage of the king of Israel (some say Solomon, others say David). Verses 1-5 are speaking of this king, as well as verse 7. Now doesn't verse 6 look out of place? Is this Davidic king being referred to as God/god, or is it merely a future (Godman) Messianic prophecy? I don't believe either is the case. Instead, I put forward that we have a biased translation.


It's interesting to note that the RSV, a Trinitarian translation, has decided to buck the trend here in its translation:
"Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;"
However, of course the translators of the RSV couldn't be seen denying this as a proof-text, and so they revert back to the standard Trinitarian translation back in Hebrews 1:8:
"But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom."
Let's have a look at the Jewish Bible's take on the verse found in Psalm 45, by the Jewish Publication Society:
"Thy throne given of G-d is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
With that, I believe this verse is talking about the king sitting on the throne of God. And this is very well supported, both for this Davidic king, and for Yeshua:
"Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him." (1 Chronicles 29:23)

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3:21)


Hebrews 1:10
Contrary to popular view, I see this as not God saying a second thing to the Son, but actually a new argument introduced by the writer: "Lord" here is in reference to God, not the Son. Again, let's go back to the source of this verse:
"24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands." (Psalm 102:24-25)
So clearly the writer has in mind God. All of Hebrews 1 is about the fact that God exalted a man above the angels. Read on to Hebrews 1:13:
"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"
What is the antecedent for the pronoun "he" here? It's found in verse 10: "Lord." This "he," of course, is the Father, so verse 10 is referring to that same Person. Again, more on this is found on that Trinity Delusion site.


John 14:6-10
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This one is pretty straightforward.


Verse 6: Yeshua distinguishes himself from the Father, who he identified as "the only true God" (John 17:3). For him to be the way, the truth and the life is because God had anointed and appointed him for that purpose.
Verse 7: Yeshua, through his amazing relationship with God, revealed his God and Father to his audience. So if one doesn't know him they certainly won't know his Father.
Verse 8: No need for explanation, right?
Verse 9: Yeshua is the express image of the invisible God.
Verse 10: Yeshua explains his statement made in verse 9 - it's the Father's words and works which are being said and done through him. A helpful analogy here is to think of the wind: You can't see the wind, but you can see the effect it has. Yeshua taught that to see him was to see his Father, because of the words and works were his Father's - not his own.



Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14
"23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
At this point I'm just going to quote a portion of on the corresponding article found on the Trinity Delusion website:
1. Isaiah Provided the Decisive Answer
If we look at Isaiah 8:8-10, another occurrence of the name "Immanuel," we can clearly also see here that the name Immanuel was intended to mean "God with us" in plan and purpose.
Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel. Be broken, O peoples, and be shattered; And give ear, all remote places of the earth. Gird yourselves, yet be shattered; Gird yourselves, yet be shattered. Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a purpose, but it will not stand, For God is with us" (Lit. Immanuel). (Isaiah 8:8-10).
2. God WITH His People
The Bible tells us that God was "with" his people many, many times and it never meant God was occupying the same space they occupied. And there isn't any reason whatsoever to think Matthew had this in mind either. Yahweh was said to be with his people in the Old Testament and it is a reference to God being with them in plan and purpose (Psalm 46:5-7; Haggai 2:4). In fact, at 2 Chronicles 13:12 we are told God was "with" Israel but no one assumes it means Yahweh was occupying their common space (Also see 2 Chron 15:2; 20:17). David says that although he walks through the valley of the shadow of death he fears no evil, because YHWH is "with him" (Ps 23:4). These references all mean that God is with His people in plan and purpose.
And when we come to the New Testament, and explore what it has to say concerning Jesus, this becomes even more abundantly clear. At John 3:2, Nicodemus remarks that he felt God was "with" Jesus because of the miracles he had done. Indeed, Jesus tells us plainly that he drove out demons not by himself but by "the Spirit of God" (Matthew 12:28), and that it is God the Father "in him" that does the works (John 14:10). Indeed, Peter also tells us plainly that God preached the good news of peace and did miracles through Jesus (Luke 8:39 24:19; Acts 2:22; 10:36,38; see Lk 24:20). God was with Israel in the sense that he was with them in plan and purpose in the activity of His Messiah Jesus.
At Luke 7:16 where Jesus rose a young man from the dead, we are plainly told, "They were all filled with awe and praised God. 'A great prophet has appeared among us,' they even said, 'God has come to help his people.'" No one seriously interprets this particular verse to mean Jesus was God and had come to raise this young man from the dead. In the very same way, Matthew tells us that God has come to save his people through his Son who is to be named "YHWH saves" and in this way the child is "God with us" because through this child God was with his people in the plan and purpose of salvation. It is plainly obvious to anyone who embraces the truth instead of clinging to a man-made tradition, that the term "God with us" refers not to the idea that "Jesus is God" but to the idea that God was with Israel in plan and purpose by sending His Son to them. The overwhelming force of Scripture, the immediate context of the passage, and the facts behind the origin of the quotation, demand we comprehend the name "God with us" in the sense of plan and purpose. Matthew was speaking in terms of God's function, not his geographic location.
The idea here in Matthew is to indicate God was with his people Israel in the plan and purpose of their salvation, not in the sense of being with them geographically. Let us get at the real truth of the matter here. If we back up just a little bit to verse 1:21 in Matthew, we will see that the angel tells Joseph that the child born to Mary is to be called "Yahweh saves" (Jesus) because he will "save his people from their sins." Now let us stop and think about that for one second. They named the child "YHWH saves." Obviously, the name "YHWH saves," given to the promised child, was to reflect back to the fact that God was going to save his people from their sins through this child, his son, God's salvation. The name "Immanuel" refers to His plan and purpose for his son. And "God with us" is also meant to convey the same idea that God was with them in the purposeful sense of saving them from their sins through his son Jesus. This is how Yahweh was "with" Israel. Yahweh God was saving his people from their sins and in this way is "with them." It is a matter of plan and purpose, not a matter of God's location. The name "Immanuel" or "God with us" is intended to refer to what God was doing rather than where he was. He was "with his people" in the sense that He sent his Son to save them and was "with" them in that plan and purpose.
 
Last edited:
Yes, exactly. God does not literally invade ones body and turn us into perfection. We must read, study the word and grow. We must have God 'with us' .
 
After providing all that, I think it's fair to point out that I was never given an explanation of the single verse I put forward.

1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

I've yet to be given a satisfactory explanation of this verse from those who believe Yeshua is God.
 
Yes, exactly. God does not invade our bodies and turn us into perfection. Rather, he serves to make us live in the way He has set out for us. He is 'with us'. Similarly, God was not inside Jesus, rather, Jesus was the Son of God and shared God's will. His faith was limitless and he performed many miracles. if my dad had superpowers, I'd probably get them too.

Jesus had human form. God cannot be human. He is perfect.

Similarly, he Holy Spirit does not enter someone upon 'inviting Jesus', rather, the Holy Spirit is simply love. A spirit of charity. Sharing in the giving, forgiving attitudr of God and Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is nothing physical. It is not a separate being.

Jesus is Jesus. The Messiah. Son of God.

God is God.
 
Yes, I reject the variant. "Theos" was clearly not written by Paul. And strangely enough, it was never brought up during the Arian controversy of the 4th Century. What's also worth noting is what "godliness" means here, as it is not a cognate to "god." The word is more to do with right worship unto God. Who displayed that - God, or Yeshua? The answer is pretty straightforward.

As for your other verses you mentioned, it would be much simpler for me to link you to a site which goes into considerable detail. However, I would not want to get into any strife by posting a website to what some may see as teaching "unbiblical" doctrine. So... If you're interested, google "trinity delusion." It's the first link there.

Hebrews 1:8
Standard Trinitarian bias here. If we do a literal translation:
"unto however the son the throne of you the god"
Granted, that doesn't make much sense. But what this shows is that the standard Greek definite article, "ho," has been oddly translated as "o" instead of "the." There really is no basis to do that.

Furthermore, if we consider the context of where this verse appears in the OT - Psalm 45 - we'll see that the typical Trinitarian translation sticks out like a sore thumb:
"My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
This psalm was dedicated to the marriage of the king of Israel (some say Solomon, others say David). Verses 1-5 are speaking of this king, as well as verse 7. Now doesn't verse 6 look out of place? Is this Davidic king being referred to as God/god, or is it merely a future (Godman) Messianic prophecy? I don't believe either is the case. Instead, I put forward that we have a biased translation.


It's interesting to note that the RSV, a Trinitarian translation, has decided to buck the trend here in its translation:
"Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;"
However, of course the translators of the RSV couldn't be seen denying this as a proof-text, and so they revert back to the standard Trinitarian translation back in Hebrews 1:8:
"But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom."
Let's have a look at the Jewish Bible's take on the verse found in Psalm 45, by the Jewish Publication Society:
"Thy throne given of G-d is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
With that, I believe this verse is talking about the king sitting on the throne of God. And this is very well supported, both for this Davidic king, and for Yeshua:
"Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him." (1 Chronicles 29:23)

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3:21)


Hebrews 1:10
Contrary to popular view, I see this as not God saying a second thing to the Son, but actually a new argument introduced by the writer: "Lord" here is in reference to God, not the Son. Again, let's go back to the source of this verse:
"24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands." (Psalm 102:24-25)
So clearly the writer has in mind God. All of Hebrews 1 is about the fact that God exalted a man above the angels. Read on to Hebrews 1:13:
"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"
What is the antecedent for the pronoun "he" here? It's found in verse 10: "Lord." This "he," of course, is the Father, so verse 10 is referring to that same Person. Again, more on this is found on that Trinity Delusion site.


John 14:6-10
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This one is pretty straightforward.


Verse 6: Yeshua distinguishes himself from the Father, who he identified as "the only true God" (John 17:3). For him to be the way, the truth and the life is because God had anointed and appointed him for that purpose.
Verse 7: Yeshua, through his amazing relationship with God, revealed his God and Father to his audience. So if one doesn't know him they certainly won't know his Father.
Verse 8: No need for explanation, right?
Verse 9: Yeshua is the express image of the invisible God.
Verse 10: Yeshua explains his statement made in verse 9 - it's the Father's words and works which are being said and done through him. A helpful analogy here is to think of the wind: You can't see the wind, but you can see the effect it has. Yeshua taught that to see him was to see his Father, because of the words and works were his Father's - not his own.



Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14
"23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
At this point I'm just going to quote a portion of on the corresponding article found on the Trinity Delusion website:
1. Isaiah Provided the Decisive Answer
If we look at Isaiah 8:8-10, another occurrence of the name "Immanuel," we can clearly also see here that the name Immanuel was intended to mean "God with us" in plan and purpose.
Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel. Be broken, O peoples, and be shattered; And give ear, all remote places of the earth. Gird yourselves, yet be shattered; Gird yourselves, yet be shattered. Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a purpose, but it will not stand, For God is with us" (Lit. Immanuel). (Isaiah 8:8-10).
2. God WITH His People
The Bible tells us that God was "with" his people many, many times and it never meant God was occupying the same space they occupied. And there isn't any reason whatsoever to think Matthew had this in mind either. Yahweh was said to be with his people in the Old Testament and it is a reference to God being with them in plan and purpose (Psalm 46:5-7; Haggai 2:4). In fact, at 2 Chronicles 13:12 we are told God was "with" Israel but no one assumes it means Yahweh was occupying their common space (Also see 2 Chron 15:2; 20:17). David says that although he walks through the valley of the shadow of death he fears no evil, because YHWH is "with him" (Ps 23:4). These references all mean that God is with His people in plan and purpose.
And when we come to the New Testament, and explore what it has to say concerning Jesus, this becomes even more abundantly clear. At John 3:2, Nicodemus remarks that he felt God was "with" Jesus because of the miracles he had done. Indeed, Jesus tells us plainly that he drove out demons not by himself but by "the Spirit of God" (Matthew 12:28), and that it is God the Father "in him" that does the works (John 14:10). Indeed, Peter also tells us plainly that God preached the good news of peace and did miracles through Jesus (Luke 8:39 24:19; Acts 2:22; 10:36,38; see Lk 24:20). God was with Israel in the sense that he was with them in plan and purpose in the activity of His Messiah Jesus.
At Luke 7:16 where Jesus rose a young man from the dead, we are plainly told, "They were all filled with awe and praised God. 'A great prophet has appeared among us,' they even said, 'God has come to help his people.'" No one seriously interprets this particular verse to mean Jesus was God and had come to raise this young man from the dead. In the very same way, Matthew tells us that God has come to save his people through his Son who is to be named "YHWH saves" and in this way the child is "God with us" because through this child God was with his people in the plan and purpose of salvation. It is plainly obvious to anyone who embraces the truth instead of clinging to a man-made tradition, that the term "God with us" refers not to the idea that "Jesus is God" but to the idea that God was with Israel in plan and purpose by sending His Son to them. The overwhelming force of Scripture, the immediate context of the passage, and the facts behind the origin of the quotation, demand we comprehend the name "God with us" in the sense of plan and purpose. Matthew was speaking in terms of God's function, not his geographic location.
The idea here in Matthew is to indicate God was with his people Israel in the plan and purpose of their salvation, not in the sense of being with them geographically. Let us get at the real truth of the matter here. If we back up just a little bit to verse 1:21 in Matthew, we will see that the angel tells Joseph that the child born to Mary is to be called "Yahweh saves" (Jesus) because he will "save his people from their sins." Now let us stop and think about that for one second. They named the child "YHWH saves." Obviously, the name "YHWH saves," given to the promised child, was to reflect back to the fact that God was going to save his people from their sins through this child, his son, God's salvation. The name "Immanuel" refers to His plan and purpose for his son. And "God with us" is also meant to convey the same idea that God was with them in the purposeful sense of saving them from their sins through his son Jesus. This is how Yahweh was "with" Israel. Yahweh God was saving his people from their sins and in this way is "with them." It is a matter of plan and purpose, not a matter of God's location. The name "Immanuel" or "God with us" is intended to refer to what God was doing rather than where he was. He was "with his people" in the sense that He sent his Son to save them and was "with" them in that plan and purpose.


εἰ οὖν Δαυὶδ καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον, πῶς υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἐστιν;

ועתה אם דוד קרא לו אדון איך הוא בנו׃




run along now.
and stop using the κύριον name in vain.