Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?
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We are discussing the topic "Is Micahel Another Name For Jesus?"
The question was not instigated by myself, but is not unworthy of study, or asking. It is not heretical to ask it, nor discuss it. Those who fear it (topic), should not particiapte in the discussion (and that is no slander upon anyone here already participating). Such questions should simply be examined in the light of scripture, without fear, without reprisals, without epithets, even as the more noble Bereans before us:
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
It is only those who fear truth, and examination of truth (scripture), that will resist, and hinder study of the scriptures on the subject:
Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.
They who fear will do all in their power to not properly study the topic, but to stir up others to human wrath, false indignation.
The words of Gamaliel are still wisdom, and applicable, today:
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Yet, even so; even after the wisdom was stated, the misguided religious zealots, still commanded that truth be not spoken, and still punished without recourse:
Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
The self-proclaimed arbiters of heresy, were themselves the heretics, for they had no love in their hearts, which is the real heresy, and so attempted to force their point of view upon all who disagreed with them, instead of properly searching the scriptures, and proving all things, and holding fast to that which is good (Jesus, who is God, for God is good).
To say that "angels are angels" is simply meaningless without proper definition to the word itself.
Yes, "angels are angels", as it means "messengers are messengers".
Your words imply that all "angels" are created beings, but scripture says no such thing. Malachi 3:1, was provided to you, in English, Hebrew and Greek. The definition of the words were also provided. The identification of the very "mal'ak" and/or "aggelos" therein was also given in detail.
The evidence that all of Christianity, from OT, to NT, to post Apostolic (12 Apostles), to 'catholic', to Reformation, etc, agreed, in print, that the Son of God, is indeed, the "Angel of the LORD", which means (as they all say) the 'Messenger of the Father'. Some say that the Son of God is the Archangel, or 'the highest Messenger of the Father'. Others are even more bold, in saying that the Son of God is "Michael" (Who is like unto God?), for He is the express image of the Father, and the greatest example of the Father's own character, and the greatest Messenger to deliver the heart of the Father to all. There is no sin, nor heresy in any of it. It is simply one scriptural agreement after another along the way, where some continue further than others, seeing the progressive truth, acknowledging each step along the way.
The word "gods" (Elohiym) in scripture is applied to Eternal Deity, created beings such as the angelic hosts (like Gabriel), fallen angelic hosts, and to mankind itself, and is even in the mouth of Jesus, as such in the gospel of John. Does this make all those persons eternal unreated Deity? Of course not. It is simply a matter of definition and context. If you need any of those example, they may be provided upon request. If they are not requested, they will not be given.
The real "mess" stems from those who continually attempt to confuse the issue with self-proclaimed definitions, that are not written in any place. The standard material of scripture, concordances, lexicons, dictionaries, encyclopedias, are all bypassed, and definitions not found in them, are in their place given. Therein is your "mess".
My next step will be to ask which source or sources do you accept as authoritative, definitive? We will begin there, if you are amenable, but if not, I will move along to those who are more interested in study of scripture and what it has to say to us.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
Its a good question. I do read a few that add the word "worthy".. what ever. I've read this over the years and never coming to the conclusion that Michael is Jesus or another name for Jesus. I know a different group out there believe this yet.. you really had to reach far and wide.. Just I don't believe so
Thank you for the welcome. Appreciated.
I am very richly encouraged, edified in the LORD Jesus Christ, and the word of Truth.
I disagree, based upon scripture, with most of the images in the links you provided in "Rightly Divided" "I" and "II". They are in error (scripturally). We can discuss them elsewhere, not here.
Thank you for the "Grace" (always need it), the "Peace" (the very Gospel of Jesus itself), and "Joy" (who is Jesus Christ).
Perhaps, you and I can discuss this subject. I would like to hear what you have read, and your reasoning (from scripture) why you come to a differing conclusion than that of the OP. If not, thank you for your time.
Even the Book of Enoch specifies that Michael is a Watcher, which are the highest ranked of the Angels that will oversee duties on Earth as in Heaven.
Yeshua is the WORD made flesh, Or God manifested in the flesh.
One must be stuck on stupid to believe the Word of God is claiming a Watcher is some form of Deity.
Enoch goes into great detail why the Sons of God were created.
I am a created being and also a son of the Most High God!
People should know the difference between Son(s) [always in the plural] of God and the Son [singular] of God..
Yeshua is the WORD made flesh, Or God manifested in the flesh.
One must be stuck on stupid to believe the Word of God is claiming a Watcher is some form of Deity.
Enoch goes into great detail why the Sons of God were created.
I am a created being and also a son of the Most High God!
People should know the difference between Son(s) [always in the plural] of God and the Son [singular] of God..
I provided the link to all the originally sourced materials. The "wiki" is simply a quick snapshot of those sources which were "secondary", as I was not allowed to post primary sources on wiki (I attempted several times, and in each instance the material was erased by wiki's self-proclaimed watch dogs.)
I will post the link again, see Chapter 11.
https://archive.org/details/michael-the-archangel-12-the-plan-of-redemption-who-is-like-unto-god-daniel-11.40-45-12.1-3_202301/Amazing Facts - Pocket Book - Doug Batchelor - Who Is Michael The Archangel/
Hey! Mr SDA or JW, Hebrews 1 is still there whether you choose to ignore it or not!
Please refrain from spreading heresies.
Thank you!
Glad to hear that.
Is.
Pretty sure it is.
Is this directed at me?
They should be shot out of the saddle, which is not difficult to do.
Jesus said; “I and my Father are one.” -John 10:30
Michael is Archangel.
Jesus is God.
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, And his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”
Hebrews 1:1-9
a you see what effort Hebrews begins with by making a distinction between the son of God and angels
“For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honour, And didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;
but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
Hebrews 2:5-11, 14-18 KJV
again you see a clear seperation between angels and Jesus angels and men are different creatures angels aren’t born nor do they live in a body of flesh and blood a mortal life on earth
they aren’t worshipped , never called Gods children never made in his image and he never took upon him the nature of an angel.
The son of God
“For unto us a child is born, ( angels aren’t born in the flesh and blood man is born ) unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
Isaiah 9:6-7
no angel is ever called the mighty God , or everlasting father the father has children
“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
Luke 3:38 KJV
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: ( father )
But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
Psalm 115:16 KJV
see how the angels don’t have an inheritance The heavens are the lords and the earth th belongs to man his children the angels are Gods servants and ministers to mankind to help man be saved and serve Gods spiritual will
In earth spiritual servants of god and messengers to man in the ot
“But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
Hebrews 1:13-14 KJV
“And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, And his ministers a flame of fire.”
Angels are his spiritual servants and messengers and ministers to mankind.
this is who Jesus is brother he created angels
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
Colossians 1:15-18 KJV
Simply jesus is God made flesh not micheal Made flesh
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
1 Timothy 3:16
micheal isnt the creator
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
John 1:1, 3, 10 KJV
these things said of Jesus the lord could never be said of an angel it’s only true of God himself
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1 KJV
then Jesus came into the world
“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
In the end
“that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in his time he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”
1 Timothy 6:14-16
Micheal is a servant of Jesus the lord tbis is Jesus
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Isaiah 44:6 KJV
this is Jesus after he lived and died for us
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
Revelation 1:8, 17-18 KJV
Jesus is God who came in the flesh who returned to heaven
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:5 KJV
Micheal Is an ot figure
amen
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.”
Isaiah 43:10-12 KJV
“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Philippians 2:9-11 KJV
“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”
Isaiah 40:3, 5-6, 8-11 KJV
.
Jesus hasn't always been divine. He is easily shown biologically related to
David, and from thence to Eve, and then to the dust with which Adam was
constructed. In other words: baby Jesus was a creature of design the same
as everyone else.
It's remarkable to me the number of Christians I encounter online who
cannot discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3 and the flesh
that the Word became in John 1:14 when the Word became a plurality
existing simultaneously as an eternal spirit being and a temporal material
being.
The two very dissimilar beings are not combined in one person as if Jesus
were a demigod. No; they exist individually, and their characteristics are as
unalike as molasses and a beach towel. (Phil 2:6-11)
_
Jesus hasn't always been divine. He is easily shown biologically related to
David, and from thence to Eve, and then to the dust with which Adam was
constructed. In other words: baby Jesus was a creature of design the same
as everyone else.
It's remarkable to me the number of Christians I encounter online who
cannot discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3 and the flesh
that the Word became in John 1:14 when the Word became a plurality
existing simultaneously as an eternal spirit being and a temporal material
being.
The two very dissimilar beings are not combined in one person as if Jesus
were a demigod. No; they exist individually, and their characteristics are as
unalike as molasses and a beach towel. (Phil 2:6-11)
_
Jesus is the ONLY Begotten of the Father John 3:16 so you are in error.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth... No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:14,18)
Some English translations have substituted "one and only Son" for "the only Begotten Son". That is obviously erroneous since all the children of God (through the New Birth) are called "sons of God". However μονογενὴς (monogenēs) translated as "only begotten" means "UNIQUELY BEGOTTEN" Son.
Since there is no mother involved, this denoted an eternal Father-Son relationship within the Godhead, with God the Word as the only begotten Son of God the Father. It denotes that "the Word was God" (John 1:1). Jesus is God, and even when He appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD" He spoke as God and was worshipped as God (see Exodus 3). Thus Christ could say that the Father is in Him, and that He is in the Father (John 14:11). These are divine mysteries.
You have a misunderstanding of what "only begotten" (monogenes) means.
Mono
Gene
Mono is simply "one", "only".
Mono is used in conjunction or connection, gene.
Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another.
It's used this way even coming down to our English:
"gene (n.) 1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene
That is why the Father is called:
monon alethinon theon, ton theon
And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:
monogene, logos en o theos
The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.
True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true
Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic
Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original
It means underived.
So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father.
Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.
In other words:
The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"
The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"
Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.
I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.
JEHOVAH Elohiym is the eternal family/relationship. JEHOVAH is the singular eternal family name, while Elohiym (Gods, trio) are the individual Persons/Beings that exist in that eternal family/relationship, Matt. 28:19; 1 Jhn. 5:7,8.
1. JEHOVAH, "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24b.; Zec. 3:2b.), "the Ancient of days" (Dan. 7:9,13,22) is "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3; τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν), "God" (Jhn. 1:1b.; τὸν θεόν), "thy God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός σου), "God the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; θεοῦ πατρός) the "person" (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3) identified in the beginning as the "God said" (Gen. 1:6), for it was by Him that Revelation says, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rev. 4:11).
2. Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24a.; Zec. 3:2a.), "the son of man" (Dan. 7:13), "the only begotten" (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)), "the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρός) is not "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3), but is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3; χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ), being "the Word was God" (Jhn. 1:1c.; θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), who is "O God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός), the "just person" (Matt. 27:24, "person", 2 Cor. 2:10) indentified in the beginning as "God made" (Gen. 1:7) on behalf of the Father's direction (Pro. 8:22-36; Exo. 20:12), for it was by him (the Son) that John says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Jhn. 1:3), that Ephesians says, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" (Eph. 3:9), that Colossians says, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (Col. 1:16), that Hebrews says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb. 1:2), the very, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exo. 3:14), the great "I am" (Jhn. 8:58; ἐγὼ εἰμί), the very "fellow" (Zec. 13:7) of the Father's person, and who comes in the name of His Father (Jhn. 5:43).
3. The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH (Luk. 4:18), "his Spirit" (Isa. 48:16), "the LORD" (Zec. 3:2c.), the "another Comforter" (Jhn. 14:6), even "he", "the spirit of truth" (Jhn. 14:17, 15:26, 16:13), "God" (Acts 5:4), identified in the beginning as "the Spirit of God moved" (Gen. 1:2) and "God saw" (Gen. 1 throughout, the eternal Witness who inspired the scriptures; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21), by which/whom everything is "created" (Psa. 104:30) and "made" (Job 33:4), whose nature is a mystery left unspoken of in scripture, but is the person who does "not speak of himself" (Jhn. 16:13), but comes in the name of the Son (Jhn. 14:26).
The eternal Heavenly Trio - family JEHOVAH Elohiym, over all creation as "Godhead".