Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?
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After looking at the first person your post refers to, I know you are using a rotten, joke of a source. Learn to use primary sources when referring to a historical person. Clearly one does not command themself.
Melito of Sardis really wrote: " The Savior commanded Michael the archangel to bring the soul of the holy Mary. And behold, Michael the archangel rolled the stone from the door of the sepulchre, and the Lord said: "Rise up my love and my kinswoman: thou that didst not suffer corruption by union of the flesh, shall not suffer dissolution of the body in the sepulchre." And immediately Mary rose up from the grave and blessed the Lord, and fell at the Lord's feet, and worshipped Him, saying: "I am not able to render Thee worthy thanks, O Lord, for Thine innumerable benefits which Thou hast granted me, Thine handmaid. Let Thy name be blessed forever, redeemer of the world, thou God of Israel."" (
On the Assumption or "Dormition" of the
Blessed Virgin Mother of God
From The Book of the Passing of the Most Holy Virgin, the Mother of God
attributed to
St. Melito of Sardis, Bishop (circa 180 A.D.))
excellent -- that was not in the writings i found earlier & read, but 100% definitive regarding the claims of @ItsAdventageous with regard to the Jesus=Michael idea having stemmed from Melito rather than Charles Russel ((JW founder)).
for reference here is a link to the complete text:
http://www.rosarychurch.net/sermons/assumption_2008.html
in that text is no small amount of Mary-ism, but for the purposes of whether Melito thought Michael = Christ, it leaves no room for interpretation.
From the book page 53 you refer to: (I do not see anything that says Jesus was Michael)
"
By the same, from the Discourse On the Cross.
For the sake of these things He came to us; for the sake of these things, while He was incorporeal, He formed for himself a body of our construction; while He appeared as a sheep, He still still remained the shepherd; while He was esteemed a servant, “He denied not the sonship; while He was borne of Mary, He
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Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notesItem Preview
ON THE CROSS-——ON FAITH.
also was invested with his Father ; while He trode upon the earth, He also filled the heaven; while He appeared as an infant, He belied not the eternity of his nature; while He was clad with a body, He also bound not the singleness of his Godhead ; while He was esteemed poor, He also was not divested of his riches ; while, inasmuch as He was man, He needed food; still, inasmuch as He was God, He ceased not to feed the universe; while He was clad in the likeness of servant, He also changed not the likeness of the Father. He was every thing in an immu- table nature. He was standing before Pilate, and yet was sitting with the Father. He was nailed upon the tree, and yet was upholding every thing.
From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.
We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect rea- son, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patri- arch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest ; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God—the king for ever andever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses, who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem,“ whowas wrapped in swad- dling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherds, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by
Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes
by Cureton, William, 1808-1864
Publication date 1855
Topics Syriac literature, Christian literature, Early, Manuscripts, Syriac
Publisher London F. and J. Rivington"
https://archive.org/details/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft/page/53/mode/1up?view=theater
"
By the same, from the Discourse On the Cross.
For the sake of these things He came to us; for the sake of these things, while He was incorporeal, He formed for himself a body of our construction; while He appeared as a sheep, He still still remained the shepherd; while He was esteemed a servant, “He denied not the sonship; while He was borne of Mary, He
Skip to main content
Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notesItem Preview
ON THE CROSS-——ON FAITH.
also was invested with his Father ; while He trode upon the earth, He also filled the heaven; while He appeared as an infant, He belied not the eternity of his nature; while He was clad with a body, He also bound not the singleness of his Godhead ; while He was esteemed poor, He also was not divested of his riches ; while, inasmuch as He was man, He needed food; still, inasmuch as He was God, He ceased not to feed the universe; while He was clad in the likeness of servant, He also changed not the likeness of the Father. He was every thing in an immu- table nature. He was standing before Pilate, and yet was sitting with the Father. He was nailed upon the tree, and yet was upholding every thing.
From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.
We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect rea- son, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patri- arch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest ; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God—the king for ever andever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses, who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem,“ whowas wrapped in swad- dling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherds, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by
Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes
by Cureton, William, 1808-1864
Publication date 1855
Topics Syriac literature, Christian literature, Early, Manuscripts, Syriac
Publisher London F. and J. Rivington"
https://archive.org/details/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft/page/53/mode/1up?view=theater
wikipedia is notoriously erroneous when describing church doctrine.
i would want to read the sources linked there.
for example, Spurgeon's own words from "resurrection of the dead" ((1856))
“There is a remarkable passage in Jude, where it speaks of Michael the Archangel contending with the devil about the body of Moses and using no “railing accusation.” Now, this refers to the great Doctrine of angels watching over the bones of the saints. Certainly it tells us that the body of Moses was watched over by a great archangel. The devil thought to disturb that body but Michael contended with him about it. Now would there be a contention about that body if it had been of no value? Would Michael contend for that which was only to be the food of worms? Would he wrestle with the enemy for that which was to be scattered to the four winds of Heaven, never to be united again into a new and goodlier fabric? No. Assuredly not! From this we learn that an angel watches over every tomb. It is no fiction, when on the marble we carve the cherubs with their wings. There are cherubs with outstretched wings over the head of the gravestones of all the righteous. Yes, and where “the rude forefathers of the hamlet sleep,” in some nook overgrown by nettles, there an angel stands night and day to watch each bone and guard each atom, that at the resurrection, those bodies, with more glory than they had on earth, may start up to dwell forever with the Lord! The guardianship of the bodies of the saints by angels proves that they shall rise again from the dead!”
.. do not seem to indicate that he believed Michael to be identical to Christ.
however if one reads this only, from "the angelic life" ((1868))
"Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel"
one might come away with a very different idea of what Spurgeon actually believed.
but now see that in its greater context:
"We can be like angels in our occupations; first, it is ours, as it was theirs, to declare the word of God. We read of the word published by angels; we read of the angels flying through the midst of heaven with the everlasting gospel. My brothers, according to your ability, be like the angels of God in this, and publish abroad the plan of salvation! Each of you, according to his ability, tell others of the salvation of Jesus Christ; you will never be more angelic than when God makes you the messengers of His Holy Spirit to the hearts of men. Be it ours to imitate the angels in fighting a good fight while we are here; we read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel; we, like He, and under Him, must stand as champions for the truth of God, never to surrender, but being prepared to suffer, even unto blood, striving against sin! With undaunted courage, and a conscience that cannot be violated, let us stand fast for the one Lord, the one faith, and the one baptism until He shall come who shall call us to the reckoning, and shall say, “Well done, good and faithful servants.” Like angels then, let us teach, and like angels, fight for the cause and for the crown of Christ!"
he is talking to his parishioners about imitating the ministry of angels, their actions being types of what we ought to do ourselves, and speaking of types says Jesus is the only Archangel -- not as though Michael is in fact Jesus, but that Michael in this passage in Jude represents Christ, who is the only true regent over all the angles. this is just as Melito wrote saying, Christ is Patriarch among patriarchs, Archangel among angels, Ruler of all kings, etc.
nevertheless regardless of what any man said or wrote or believed, no matter how famous he may be or renowned among men, it is all nothing.
Hebrews 1 is definitive: "to which of the angels did He ever say..?"
Michael is 100% described as an angel - a chief one, to be sure, one chief among other chiefs; but Christ is 100% described as identical to YHWH - with Whom there is no equal: there is no other God but one, and the Son is One with the Father. Michael and Christ are not equivalent.
surely you are not actually ignorant of how the idea of Michael = Christ is famously JW
debunked; see previous posts from myself & The Learner
I just looked at my ISBE, Your poor Wiki source quotes it correctly. But, ISBE does not give the list of people. You should locate and post the quotes from them to make your case with JW's. For now I will take your word for it concerning the reformers since I no longer have copies of those books. The problem with wiki sources and why I do not consider them worthy of being any proof is anyone can write their opinions in it.
"This is the twenty-ninth video in the series of Defeating Adventism. This video briefly discusses the Seventh-day Adventists citation of the Christian Connection. The Seventh-day Adventist church is reluctant to label the Christian Connection as non-Christian for their views against the Trinity because some of their founders (Joseph Bates & James White) were members of the Christian Connection. "
https://myllu.llu.edu/oncampus/story/?id=15302
https://interamerica.org/seventh-day-adventist-church/
You may want to investigate Miller and the Christian Connextion for leads.
https://myllu.llu.edu/oncampus/story/?id=15302
https://interamerica.org/seventh-day-adventist-church/
You may want to investigate Miller and the Christian Connextion for leads.
I love that your post was timed at 3:16.
I am not a 'sir' (which means "lord"). I am either 'brother' or just 'Adventageous' will do.
You are quite mistaken, as I have already provided the source material that Luther, and many other Lutherans taught, that Jesus is Michael.
Sir William Smith (AD 20 May 1813 – AD 7 October 1893) was an English lexicographer.
A Comprehensive Dictionary of the Bible.
… [Page 646] Many (Luther, Hengstenberg, Dr. W. L. Alexander [in Kitto], Prof. Douglas [in Fairbairn], &c.) maintain that Michael = the Messiah or Lord Jesus Christ (compare Dan. X. 21, XII. 1 with IX. 25; Rev. XII. 7 with 1 Jn. III. 8). "Michael designates Him," says Prof. Douglas, "as does also the title 'Angel' or 'Archangel,'" not simply in His divine essence, but in an official character of subordination, as the Messenger of Jehovah and the Captain of the Lord's host. Professor Douglas compares the answer of Michael in Jude 9 with those of Christ in Mat. IV. 4, 7, 10, and remarks that the opposition of Michael and the devil here "is without a parallel in Scripture, if Michael be a created angel; whereas it is a very common opposition indeed, if Michael be Christ." ..." [Pages 645-646] - https://archive.org/stream/comprehensivedic00smituoft#page/646/mode/1up
Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) was a German monk [Order of St. Augustine], Catholic priest, professor of theology and seminal figure of the 16th-century movement in Christianity known later as the Protestant Reformation, "the Dr. Luther" of the Lutheran movement.
[German] D. Martin Luthers Werke: Kritische Gesamtausgabe; D. Martin Luthers Deutsche Bibel 1522-1546, Elfter Band Zweite Halft Die Ubersetzung des Prophetenteils des Alten Testaments (Daniel bis Maleachi). Hermann Bohlaus Nachfolger / Weimar; 1960.
[German/Dutch] 1541 Translation:
“... [Page 108; 1541 Translation; Page 109; 1545 Translation] selbigen zeit, wird sich auffmachen der grosse Furst Michael, der fur die Kinder deines Volks stehet, Denn es wird ein solche trübselige Zeit sein als nicht gewest ist, sint das Leute gewest sind, bis auss diese zeit.
WIE wol Michael eins Engels name ist, doch verstehen wir hie, gleich wie auch Apoc. XII. den hErrn Christum selbs da durch, Die hie niden auff Erden mit seinen Engeln, das ist Predigern, streittet wider den Teufel, durchs Evangelium, Denn er nennet in den grossen Fursten. ...” [Page 108; 1541 Translation; Page 109; 1545 Translation] - https://archive.org/stream/s12werkediedeuts11luth#page/108/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/s12werkediedeuts11luth#page/109/mode/1up
or also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=320lAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Full Text of Page 108:
"... [Page 108; 1541 Translation; Page 109; 1545 Translation] 1541 ... Er nennets gepflanzt, Denn der Bapst hat ein Paradis aller luft zu Rom, oder in der Kirchen, gemacht, da er aller Welt, Gut, Gewalt und Ehre, frey nach seinem willen braucht.
BVR selbigen zeit, wird sich auffmachen der grosse Furst Michael, der fur die Kinder deines Volks stehet, Denn es wird ein solche trübselige Zeit sein als nicht gewest ist, sint das Leute gewest sind, bis auss diese zeit.
WIE wol Michael eins Engels name ist, doch verstehen wir hie, gleich wie auch Apoc. XII. den hErrn Christum selbs da durch, Die hie niden auff Erden mit seinen Engeln, das ist Predigern, streittet wider den Teufel, durchs Evangelium, Denn er nennet in den grossen Fursten. DERselbige hat sich nu auffgemacht, und stehet fur die Christen, und tröstet sie, mit dem Wort der Gnaden. DENn his da her ist die grewlichst zeit gewest, als auff Erden ie gewest ist, WIE Christus diese wort auch füret, Matth. [Bl. XIII.] XXIIII. Und wo diese Tage nicht verkürzt weren und auffgehöret hetten, So were sein Mensch selig worden, auch die Edomiten, Moabiten, Ammoniten nicht. DENN es schon angefangen in Welschenlanden, zu Rom und mehr Orten. Das man Epicurisch aus dem Glauben ein gespött gemacht, und die Kinder auch nicht mehr teusset. Also were beide Tauffe, Sacrament, und Wort alles aus gewest, und sein Mensch mehr selig worden. ...
... 9: Dan[iel]. 12,1 14: Off[enbarung]. 12,7. 19: Matth[ew]. 24,21f." [Page 108; 1541 Translation; Page 109; 1545 Translation] - https://archive.org/stream/s12werkediedeuts11luth#page/108/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/s12werkediedeuts11luth#page/109/mode/1up
Robert W. Bertram (AD 27 March 1921 - AD 13 March 2003), a Lutheran Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, did advanced study in Catholic theology at the University of Munich (1965-1956), and was the Department Head in Religion at VU, from Valparaiso, Porter Co., Indiana in 1958.
Spirituality is for Angels - The Angels of Michael; by Robert W. Bertram [Printed in Ecumenism, The Spirit and Worship, 126-169. Edited by Leonard J. Swindler. Pittsburgh: Duquesne University Press, 1967.]
"... Sixteen years later Luther was still preaching:
Der Furst aber dieses Krieges, den er Michael heisset, der ist und kann kein ander sein weder unser Herr Jhesus Christus, Gottes Sohn. 16
Long after Luther Christians continued to sing Nikolaus Hermann's "Heut' singt die liebe Christenheit," which in one of its variants retains the identification, "Michael, unser Herre Christ." 17 Recently Wilhelm Koepp reported a revival of interest in the Michael-Christ tradition. 18 ..." - http://www.crossings.org/archive/bob/SPIRITUALITYISFORANGELS.pdf
Many, many other Lutherans, at thie highest theological levels, and Refomation involvement:
Philipp Melanchthon
[Latin] In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius, editus a Philippo Melanthone, Anno 1543. - http://books.google.com/books?id=1llSAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Johann Wigand
http://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN66970119X&PHYSID=PHYS_0761&USE=800
David Chytraeus or Chyträus
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10179550_00294.html?zoom=1
Carl L. Beckwith
http://books.google.com/books?id=gSMDd60ohdkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Carl Ferdinand Wilhelm Walther
http://books.google.com/books?id=DE6zEvdKfkMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Ernst Wilhelm Theodor Herrmann Hengstenberg
https://archive.org/stream/christologyofold02hegs#page/19/mode/1up
Yeah, that's Jesus/Michael, as I said earlier. It is in Daniel 10:10 that a transition is to another person and them speaking after. I do desire that persons read my responses carefully.
No, Jude distinguishes Son ('ArchAngel' (Highest Messenger on behalf of the Father) from the Father (the LORD), just as Hebrews does, as Daniel does (Son of Man (Son of the Father), vs Ancient of Days (Father)).
Malachi 3, and other texts, state, clearly, otherwise. The issue that you seem to be having, is a misunderstanding of what the word means in English, Hebrew, koine Greek. The word does not indicate created or uncreated, at all. It simply means, messenger, ambassador, one with a message (from or for another).
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
In Malachi 3:1 there are at least 4 "angels" (mal'ak, aggelos).
[1] "my messenger (מלאכיH4397) (αγγελονG32 N-ASM), and he shall prepare the way before" = John the Baptist, as the NT states. This is a created being, yet still an 'angel' (messenger).
[2] "the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (ומלאךH4397) (αγγελοςG32 N-NSM) of the covenant" = Jesus the Christ, as the NT states. This is an uncreated Being, and eternal, yet still an 'angel' (messenger on behalf of the Father, John 12:49-50)
[3] Malachi, himself, whose name (H4401 מַלְאָכִי) means 'angel' (messenger, as a prophet of God). This is a created being, yet still an 'angel' (messenger).
[4] The Holy Ghost, who is inspiring Malachi, and the text itself, is also an 'angel' (see Revelation 18:1, etc) (messenger) on behalf of the Father and Son (John 14:26). This is an uncreated Being, and eternal, yet still an 'angel' (Messenger on behalf of the Father and Son).
2 created 'angels', 2 uncreated and eternal 'angels'.
Mentioning the JW is simply a logical fallacy, called poisoning the well. They are irrelevant to the discussion, and a red-herring, and non-sequitur. The real foolishness, is in not actually addressing the evidences provided, the scriptures given, and the reasoning from them.
Jude reads, "Michael" not "Son"
Your interpretation may be different than the actual text, but you have no grounds to say Jude does not explicitly distinguish Michael from the LORD - because that is exactly what the actual text says. Michael is unable to judge but the LORD is.
However all judgement is given to the Son
Therefore either Jude is wrong ((given your private interpretation)), or Michael is not The Son & that private interpretation which says he is, is in error.
It's really very clear.
Brother, friend try going with primary sources here is a led http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/PreusCMichaelasChrist.pdf
Verse 11 indicates it is the same person he saw in vv. 1-9 which touched him and then spoke, because it says "he" without any new introduction.
Vv. 13 etc make it clear it is not Michael, and that it is someone able to be withstood - therefore it is not Christ either, because "there is no plan or counsel against the LORD"
Gabriel isn't a bad guess
On one of the SDA pages, I checked out this misquote saying Jesus is Michael. Lost the site.
"The saying then stands, first, In the beginning was the Logos; we are to place that full in our view; but the testimonies we cited from the Proverbs led us to place wisdom first, and to think of wisdom as preceding the Word which announces her. We must observe, then, that the Logos is in the beginning, that is, in wisdom, always. Its being in wisdom, which is called the beginning, does not prevent it from being with God and from being God, and it is not simply with God, but is in the beginning, in wisdom, with God. For he goes on: He was in the beginning with God. He might have said, He was with God; but as He was in the beginning, so He was with God in the beginning, and All things were made by Him, being in the beginning, for God made all things, as David tells us, in wisdom. And to let us understand that the Word has His own definite place and sphere as one who has life in Himself (and is a distinct person), we must also speak about powers, not about power. Thus says the Lord of powers, (A.V. hosts) we frequently read; there are certain creatures, rational and divine, which are called powers: and of these Christ was the highest and best, and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power. As, then, there are several powers of God, each of them in its own form, and the Saviour is different from these, so also Christ, even if that which is Logos in us is not in respect of form outside of us, will be understood from our discussion up to this point to be the Logos, who has His being in the beginning, in wisdom. This for the present may suffice, on the word: In the beginning was the Logos. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
I am trying to find primary quotes that says Jesus is Michael
"The saying then stands, first, In the beginning was the Logos; we are to place that full in our view; but the testimonies we cited from the Proverbs led us to place wisdom first, and to think of wisdom as preceding the Word which announces her. We must observe, then, that the Logos is in the beginning, that is, in wisdom, always. Its being in wisdom, which is called the beginning, does not prevent it from being with God and from being God, and it is not simply with God, but is in the beginning, in wisdom, with God. For he goes on: He was in the beginning with God. He might have said, He was with God; but as He was in the beginning, so He was with God in the beginning, and All things were made by Him, being in the beginning, for God made all things, as David tells us, in wisdom. And to let us understand that the Word has His own definite place and sphere as one who has life in Himself (and is a distinct person), we must also speak about powers, not about power. Thus says the Lord of powers, (A.V. hosts) we frequently read; there are certain creatures, rational and divine, which are called powers: and of these Christ was the highest and best, and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power. As, then, there are several powers of God, each of them in its own form, and the Saviour is different from these, so also Christ, even if that which is Logos in us is not in respect of form outside of us, will be understood from our discussion up to this point to be the Logos, who has His being in the beginning, in wisdom. This for the present may suffice, on the word: In the beginning was the Logos. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
I am trying to find primary quotes that says Jesus is Michael