It’s ok, we all make mistakes. Anyway, there are many verses that corroborates this meaning; so you can see that OSAS fails.
Is it ok to be once saved always saved.
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It’s ok, we all make mistakes. Anyway, there are many verses that corroborates this meaning; so you can see that OSAS fails.
Is it possible for one to be like the prodigal son? to stray away from the father? or was Jesus speaking about Israel in that parable?
But assuming you are right about the verse I posted is there any other verse that we can use to prove it to be true? Because this one can be interpreted both ways so it is not a clean cut verse to use to prove it.
Well interpretation can alter how we understand scripture so I may have to rethink my position depending on how this discussion goes
This verse can be interpreted both ways depending on how you look at it so do you have any other verses that can prove my belief of osas wrong? Because I will need more than just one verse to convince me at l;east not one that can be interpreted both ways like this one
Please find the verse where justification is undone by God?
You won't because it does not exist and that is the proof you need.
The salvation can be lost crowd need a verse that states a person who has been justified can be unjustified and that does not exist.
As you know all scripture must be understood starting with the cardinal truths .. and a cardinal, first principle is saved is saved.
The entire Bible is about the plan of a secure salvation in Christ.
If a person is not eternally saved what exactly is that person trusting Christ for, a partial /initial salvation and then you work out the rest.
Sounds like works to me. NO Bueno!
I do think there is a lot about Israel in the NT, elected by God to bring forth the savior, so you are correct and I never take those verses or parables about individual personal salvation.
Yes if salvation is based on us then well I must have lost my salvation long ago because I have fallen short over and over and over again in fact my sins are likely far to much to count try as I might I am unable to not fall into sin yet his love mercy and grace is even more than that as the scripture says Romans 5:20-21, which states, "Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord"
I did a huge deep dive on Hebrews a few years back because the "losable salvation crowd" have it as a go to verse, if you would like a further breakdown let me know, it is really interesting and I learned so much through that process.
Yes I would like that actually but I can see why they would have it as a go to because at first even I thought it said we could fall away.I did a huge deep dive on Hebrews a few years back because the "losable salvation crowd" have it as a go to verse, if you would like a further breakdown let me know, it is really interesting and I learned so much through that process.
God is the author through Saul Paul. This was a letter to the Jews who converted.
“Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.”
Hebrews 2:1 NKJV
Aah, that would be from the gospel, which they heard.
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart.
There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and throughout various Christian forum sites.
You're redefining “enlightened” in Heb6:4 by importing John1:9 universal illumination to make it non-salvific. But staying within Hebrews shows photizō refers to covenantal participation - see Heb10:32, where believers are called to endure after being “enlightened.” The shift you’ve made isn’t lexical.
Glancing through the rest of your post it looks like you're continuing the theme.
Remind me again, if you will, the soteriology you believe is OSAS, Eternal Security, or something similar?
Being enlightened in either verse does not automatically mean someone is saved. John 1:9 states that Jesus Christ is the true light who gives light to all as a form of spiritual awareness and responsibility but does not guarantee salvation for all. Now even though Hebrews 6:4 refers to gaining deeper knowledge and understanding of Biblical truth, yet they simply tasted and stopped there. Context is important. Again, verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
In Hebrews 10, the writer is addressing believers yet it's not hard to find make believers mixed in. Again, context is important. In Hebrews 10:26, to sin willfully carries the idea of deliberate intention that is continual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
I continue to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Did you read all of my post?
I actually prefer to use the terms "eternal security of the believer" or "preservation of the saints." (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) OSAS carries too many negative connotations thanks to folks who falsely accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license for immorality.
Are you saying that ALL Christians in the OSAS camp are heretics and will not be saved? Now abusing and misusing OSAS as a license for immorality would be heresy, as we see in Jude 1:4 - For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In contrast with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1)
The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.
If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Did you notice, fall short of the grace of God? The NASB reads - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.
I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote a works based false gospel strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.