Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

[Cameron143]

Unresponsive.

Of course. They are dead. Unless they are quickened, they will never respond. How was Lazarus raised from the dead. Jesus spoke and He was made alive. Then he came forth.

 

[Magenta]

Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Welcome back!

the thief on the cross was never baptisted.

We are not told that, though many assume it...

 

[john832]

Isn't obeying a command a work?

We are judged by our works. Do a search for "works" in the NT and see what it says.

 

[hornetguy]

Are you referring to The Old Testament or The New Testament Law?

Old testament....Abrahamic/Mosaic law...

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Of course. They are dead. Unless they are quickened, they will never respond. How was Lazarus raised from the dead. Jesus spoke and He was made alive. Then he came forth.

Unresponsive to the real question.

 

[DJT_47]

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Pretty clear what it is

 

[Cameron143]

Unresponsive to the real question.

Wasn't my intention. So if you will redirect my attention and ask me the real question again I'd be most appreciative.

 

[hornetguy]

the thief on the cross was never baptisted.

Jesus saved him directly... he was under no obligation to be baptized... he was not going to be added to the body of Christ, and he had no need of the indwelling Spirit.

 

[Nehemiah6]

he was not going to be added to the body of Christ, and he had no need of the indwelling Spirit.

I am not sure that is entirely true. When the Bible speaks about "the spirits of just men made perfect" I believe it is talking about the OT saints who were justified by grace through faith but their spirits were made perfect on the day of Pentecost, when they too received the gift of the Holy Ghost. While this is not specifically stated, it is a reasonable explanation for their spirits being made perfect. So that thief would have also been included.

 

[Blain]

Everything I am about to say rests of these Scriptures.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Acts 2:37-41 is a passage in the Book of Acts that describes the conversion of a large number of people to Christianity following Peter's Pentecost sermon. The passage begins with the people being "cut to the heart" after hearing Peter's sermon, which they realized convicted them of their sins. They then asked Peter and the other apostles what they should do. Peter responded by telling them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. He also promised them that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Those who gladly received Peter's word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 souls were added to the church. This passage is significant because it shows how the early church grew rapidly in the weeks and months following Jesus's ascension into heaven. It also highlights the importance of repentance and baptism in the Christian faith.

Here is a breakdown of the passage:

Acts 2:37

This verse describes the reaction of the people to Peter's sermon. They were "cut to the heart" by his words, which means that they were deeply moved and convicted by them. This is a common reaction to the preaching of the gospel, as it exposes people's sin and need for salvation.

Acts 2:38

This verse records the people's question to Peter and the other apostles. They asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This shows that they were open to changing their ways and following Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:39

Peter's response to the people's question is a summary of the gospel message. He told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Repentance is a turning away from sin, and baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin.

Acts 2:40

Peter continued his explanation of the gospel by telling the people that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell in the hearts of believers. He empowers them to live for Christ and to share the gospel with others.

Acts 2:41

This verse describes the response of those who gladly received Peter's word. They were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 souls were added to the church. This is a remarkable number of conversions, and it shows how the early church was growing rapidly.
The passage concludes with Peter and the other apostles continuing to preach the gospel and teach the new converts. The church continued to grow and spread throughout the world.

bapism is used as a more traditial religous structure but tell me what is the reason and purpose for it? many see it as a religous act what if I were to tell you I have been baptized twised what if I were to tell you that that the next time I am baptized it would be done4 it would be done by jesus himself in living water?

could you in your spirit alone know this is true? do you actually believe in the impsiossible or are you stuck with the norm? many read the word of God I live with the word ofGod
How many can clzim that Jesus himself would come and be with you? how many can tell you how the fathers presence is homr is like a goldeb fog in your room I purposely missed a vital eye appointment because Iwas in his presence I was home I was whole

Seek his presence more than anything I beg of you you can mock or arttack me you can use scripture you can do anything to repel and disrigardn what I say but he is so much more than you thought you knew and I am willing to give my life my everything good or bad so that you and others cann know him as I have the fascination of him notmjust the hunger or thirzt the fascination the hunger to seek and recieve the mysteriously of God himself this is the key disregard any dioctrine belief anything you yourself was truth Oh the blessings abd wibderfulness of letting go of all if yhis wh0 you were who you are everything you lack every we are w arspokem of Study who and what you in his kingdom
Believe and recieve follow and be shown the truth

If I hsd the words to dwscribe his world I would Oh if I could if I could give up my entire being so you all could know and understand oh the beauty the wonder the beyond what you can poercieve love that is far deeper than your body can handle
Youall study the scriptures you gain understanding using logix abd dictrine but what I say seem off to you? have you k own this yourself? what if I were to tell you that he weould physically move in with you?

When you eat drink study whatever you do regaRDLESS OTHERS YOU CAN SAY HE IS HERE.
hOW REAL IS HE TO YOU? is he some distant God you pray to or is ge thgere always never reklying on yourself because whatever yoj are lackung je is not
i

 

[mailmandan]

Blah blah blah, I don't care about the genitive Greek or what ever, I care about what Jesus Christ says...

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

One must be baptized and have the the Holy Spirit dwelling in him to be saved.

In John 3:5, Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[mailmandan]

We are judged by our works. Do a search for "works" in the NT and see what it says.

Do you believe we are "saved" by works or by grace through faith, not works? (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Pretty clear what it is

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mailmandan]

It's interesting that you mention Naaman. Naaman was healed when he exercised faith. But when did he acquire faith to begin with? He was a heathen. But later he was a believer. When did that occur?

I have often heard those who support salvation by water baptism (cleansing taking place in the water) use the healing of Naaman when he dipped in the Jordan river 7 times as an example of receiving cleansing of sins in water baptism. Yet in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. We can read about it in Luke 5:12-15. No water is found here.

Second, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him. (vs. 17) If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, and not salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with cleansing of sins in water/salvation by H2O but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15)

 

[mailmandan]

I agree with Eph. 2:8-9. Our understanding of those verses have to be in agreement with the rest of the scriptures.
Faith is sufficient but what does it mean to have faith that is sufficient.
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So you basically define faith "as" faith and works? Do you believe that "justified by works" in James 2:24 means saved by works? It sure looks that way to me. This would also explain a lot about your biased interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21 which culminates in making salvation dependent on the work of water baptism.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not works. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

James is not using the word "justified" in verse 24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

 

[mailmandan]

If we take out the parenthetical expression, this is how the verse reads.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Baptism does save us by the resurrection of Christ. If we read Romans 6, we see why.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

I suggest this is where you're going off track.

When Peter says not the removal of dirt from the flesh , he is not telling us the physical act does nothing. He's telling us it's not a cleansing bath but it is an appeal to God for a good conscience.

So you admit that baptism is not a cleansing bath? No sins are remitted in the water? You are getting off track by making baptism (the removal of dirt from the flesh) the cause of a good conscience and salvation. Water baptism is a picture of becoming united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. Notice that Romans 6:5 says "likeness" of His death, "likeness" of His resurrection. Baptism is a picture of the reality which must not be confused with the reality. What is signified in baptism is not procured in baptism.

 

[turbosixx]

We are judged by our works. Do a search for "works" in the NT and see what it says.

That's how I see it. Works done in Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith that has no works is dead. Faith that works is faith made complete.


In Galatians 2 Paul is talking about a specific set of works.
16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,
He's talking about the law of Moses and circumcision.

No. He was talking about any work under the law. Which is in opposition to fruit...against which there is no law...Galatians 5:22-23.

 

[turbosixx]

I appreciate all the effort you have put in your replies. First let me explain my current understanding, maybe that will help some. Our works cannot/do not save us but we are not saved without works. No amount of works can save us therefore we are only saved by the grace of God.

You are getting off track by making baptism (the removal of dirt from the flesh) the cause of a good conscience and salvation.

You are making it so baptism accomplishes nothing.
If baptism is not HOW we make an appeal/pledge to God for a good conscience, then how? Is there any other way to do it according to the bible?

Water baptism is a picture of becoming united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. Notice that Romans 6:5 says "likeness" of His death, "likeness" of His resurrection. Baptism is a picture of the reality which must not be confused with the reality. What is signified in baptism is not procured in baptism.

The reason it is a likeness is because the reality would be death. How can we really die with Christ?
IF water baptism isn't how we are are united with Christ in His death, then HOW do we produce united with Him in death??

Please consider, if baptism is how:
We are added to Christ.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand
How our sins are washed away:
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
How we die with Christ:
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
How we are circumcised:
11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism,
How we are saved:
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you
How we call on His name:
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Since that is what baptism does, don't you think Satan is going to attach baptism and confuse man convincing him baptism cannot save you. That is what he does.
God for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Satan The serpent said to the woman, “You certainly will not die!

 

[turbosixx]

No. He was talking about any work under the law. Which is in opposition to fruit...against which there is no law...Galatians 5:22-23.

Yes, any work under the law of Moses. They were dealing with men trying to force circumcision. Paul in 4:21- he gives an analogy of those under law and those under grace.