Is Anything Not Predestinated by God?
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It seems we see things a little differently. That’s ok. God’s omniscience is really beyond anyone’s ability to grasp truly. I enjoyed discussing the issue with you, but we have reached an impasse. You have reasoned well in your responses, but the degree of arrogance in your summation is a sad commentary on where we Christians are as a collective today. I apologize if any of my remarks may have offended you. Rest assured, your ability to alleviate any grief is not warranted.
a question to explore the nature of the soul and it's connection to the devine if I understand your question correctly
So, after seemingly criticising me for not submitting to the "classical" so-called "orthodoxy" espoused by Origen, Irenaeus and Augustine concerning the attributes of God, you are now saying that God's omniscience is really beyond anyone's (which would include yours and those three men's) ability to grasp. And in the discussion, you have not provided any scripture that actually unequivocally proves their view.
I don't think I claimed any ability to alleviate your grief. I accredited understanding 1 Cor. 1 and 11, in other words, God's word, with the ability to save you grief.
The Hebrew scriptures as given did not have vowels , and by religious convention, the Jews did not pronounce the name of YHWH , thinking it disrespectful and insulting to God to speak His name with impure lips. So there is no way you could possibly know what vowels were between the letters of the tetragrammaton. YHWH. So, you might as well stop pretending to know that and correcting others.
You have it backwards. The word says those God foreknew He predestinated. The predestinated will of God stated in this verse does not refer to which individuals would believe but, rather, to the planned outcome of those who believe. This outcome is that they would be "conformed to the image of His Son" To this end he employs everything that subsequently happens to them including events instigated by Satan and sinful men. Thus God is able to work IN ALL THINGS to bring about a good. Thus while the treacherous actions of Joseph's brothers was evil. The outcome was used by God for the good of exalting Joseph so he could deliver his people from violence and destruction.
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.…
(Romans 8:28-30)
God's nature of Love means that what He wants for us is good. He would never make creatures incapable of surrendering to Him or calling out to Him for help. Only our stubborn pride, makes us unwilling to reach out to Him. Martin Luther thought we were UNABLE to give up and believe because our WILLS have been rendered UNABLE to do so by the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense, since the Spirits purpose is to CONVICT us of sin so we will be persuaded to trust in Him.
Augustine's theology cannot be classified as either purely "classical" or orthodox." In fact, many of his premises were CONTRARY to the orthodox positions of such men as Irenaeus who spoke and wrote in the Koine Greek. Augustine, by contrast, wrote only in Latin. He also used the allegorical/typological method of interpretation which leaves one vulnerable to eisegesis and doctrinal confabulation.
His ignorance of Greek also cut him off from referring to what earlier Christians had been writing ever since the days of the Apostles. This is obvious when we compare Augustine's writings with that of the Greek fathers before him. Augustine was a talented popular writer and polemicist but his tendency to read into what he did not comprehend caused him to introduce many novel doctrines into the Church.
I agree. Augustine struggled with scripture as it opposed many of His former beliefs as a Manichaean. Bishop Ambrose told Augustine to read the Bible in the light of Plato, which is how Augustine then approached scripture, eisegeting Platonist metaphysics such as First Cause Immutability into the Word of God.
"Then there is Plato's assertion that the philosopher is the "lover of God." Nothing shines out from the pages of Scripture more clearly than this. But what impresses me most, and almost brings me to agree that Plato cannot have been unacquainted with the sacred books, is that when the angel gave Moses the message from God, and Moses asked the name of him who gave the command to go and free the Hebrew people from Egypt, he received this reply, "I am HE WHO IS, and you will say to the sons of Israel, 'HE WHO IS has sent me to you.'" This implies that in comparison with him who really is, because he is unchangeable, the things created changeable have no real existence. This truth Plato vigorously maintained and diligently taught. And I do not know whether it can be found anywhere in the works of Plato's predecessors, except in that book which has the statement, "I am HE WHO IS; and you will say to them: 'HE WHO IS has sent me to you.'"
--St. Augustine, The City of God (Bk. VIII, Ch. 11).
Mal. 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not (Qal perfective, I did not change/I don't change); therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Qal perfective, did not come to an end/do not come to an end).
The entire book of Malachi is about Jacob and the Israelite priests changing away from their covenant with Yahweh.
Mal. 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Mal. 2:4
And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. (To be continued....)
3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
It is in the middle of this context that your presumed proof-text occurs. In context it refers to God not changing away from His covenant with the patriarch Jacob re his progeny, despite Jacob's progeny treacherously changing away from their covenant with Yahweh at Sinai.
One may not logically extend that text to a general statement about God's immutability in all or some other areas without providing some scriptural text that unambiguously declares God's immutability in all or some other areas. That text is only clearly declaring His unchanging stance on His covenant to Jacob. So, it fails as proof-text for the classical so-called orthodox assertions concerning the nature of God being immutable, impassible and simple.
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Blue155
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Blue155
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1 Samuel 23:7-13 sheds much light on this topic.
David lays a two-part speculative question before the Lord: if he does this, will that happen? God gives clear, specific answers to both parts of the question. David chooses to do something else.
This shows that God knows possible futures that never actually happened.
Or maybe this. If I contemplate tossing a six-sided dice once, I know all the possibilities. 1/6 chance of each number.
If I contemplate tossing a six-sided dice twice, I know all the possibilities. The more throws of a dice that I try to accurately predic, the less likely it is that I will guess correctly.
One could propose that God knows all future possibilities of all the dice throws in history, but the probability of predicting every dice throw one after the other into infinity approaches zero. And that is just dice throws. The probability of calculating every event of every entity in the universe for every day of its existence ad infinitum is infinitely less likely than calculating and guessing just the univers's dice throws.
God knowing all the probabilities is not enough for Him to predict every event accurately. God would need to either know all outcomes objectively through have already seen them happen. But they have not all already happened, so that would be logically nonsensical suggestion. Or He would need to know them all subjectively, by having already planned and decided to make them happen. using His omnipotence. But that would make God the author , planner and intender of all the universe's evil.
However, it does not prove that God knew all Saul's and the Keilahites' options from eternity past. Nor does it specify how God knew what was happening re Saul, and what was likely re Keilah at the time David asked, whether by observing the behaviour and conversations of Saul and the Keilahites at the time, or by knowing the all possible futures from eternity past.
The question, "Will Saul come down, as thy servant has heard?" could also be translated as "Is Saul coming down, as thy servant has heard.?" they coming down. God could just as easily have answered David as He did by observing the past and present, without needing any access to objective knowledge of the future.