So, this verse must be a lie, according to you.
Numbers 23:19
“God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.”
Is Anything Not Predestinated by God?
- Thread starter Solitude
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Numbers 23:19
“God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.”
Finally! Good. Now we have something to examine beyond your assertions.
Actually, this doesn't support your view the way you might think. God declares (through Isaiah) what He will do in response to Hezekiah's entreaty. That's not quite the same thing as "knowing the future".
The word is "divine". To "devine" is quite different. Also, you haven't actually provided any Scripture here.
Humans don't have divine nature in them. Those humans who have put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation have the Holy Spirit within them and they are being slowly conformed to the nature of Christ, but that still doesn't mean "divine nature". It means "sanctification".
You're welcome to disagree, but facts are facts. As for my approach, I'm direct because beating around the bush wastes everyone's time. Also, I'm blunt when I encounter willful ignorance or stupidity. You dismiss my contributions as "imaginary ideas" only because they leave you exposed and you don't want to grow.respectfully I disagree with your ideas about me, and totally disagree with your approach to constantly dismiss that which is true, with theese. imaginary ideas, .
You also don't seem to know the meaning of "abrupt", but that's a side issue. You constantly resist learning, and immediately dismiss everything I tell you instead of choosing to examine and learn. I don't care if you learn from me, but that won't stop me telling you you're wrong when you're wrong, which unfortunately is fairly often. You could humble yourself, accept that others know far more than you, and start improving your knowledge and understanding, or you can continue in your ignorance and willful resistance... and build a reputation as a fool for doing so.
I read the post to which you responded; Sipsey is right.
If your statement here is a reference to 2 Peter 1:20, you have badly misunderstood it. I invite you to read it again, and explain your understanding.
Your not interested you keep being ignorant. And I have no time for this behaviour.
I know that verse well. God's word is truth. It is specifically talking about God's long-term plans for the nation of Israel. Context matters. I could post many other verses where God repents. Again, the context of the passage matters.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
In other words, we should not be interpreting scripture privately but take it as it stands. He was using his own private interpretation.
When boxed in with only two choices, it blinds one to other options.
Your context seems to be at odds with 2,000 years of orthodoxy.
That's not what the verse means.
It means that the origin of the prophecies recorded in Scripture is the Holy Spirit, not human interpretation of events. The verse says nothing whatsoever about humans interpreting Scripture to understand it, which is absolutely necessary (and inherent in the process of translation).
The early (Ante-Nicene) Church did not believe in absolute determinism. Of course, God COULD have reigned by has the POWER to control every variable, including every choice, desire and emotion of every sentient being, including every event that occurs in the created universe but He adopted such a policy in His own dealings with men.
This is why, after declaring the judgment of Nineveh, could later retracted it when the people repented.
Sometimes when He pronounces a judgment He himself raises up intercessors for those who will become the targets of His judgment. Historically, the earliest view of Christian, preachers and apologists was that, while God ordains KEY events like the incarnation and crucifixion, He lets mankind influence Him. While this is unsettling to predeterminists it shows His merciful nature.
For the first 3 to 4 centuries the idea that man has a choice was the universal belief of orthodox Christianity. Their main opponents in this were pagans who, like the Manichaeans believed in absolute determinism. Augustine before his conversion had himself been a Manichee and when he converted to Christianity he imported some of these key beliefs into the dogma of Western Catholicism. He did not know (or care) what the earlier authors had said because Augustine, for all his education, had never bothered to learn the Koine Greek language in which the Bible and the works of his predecessors had been written. Augustine's language was not Greek but Latin. Martin Luther as an Augustinian monk was steeped in Augustinianism. John Calvin was also an enthusiastic disciple of Augustine. Later, he fell too fell back into his beliefs about determinism.
This is why, after declaring the judgment of Nineveh, could later retracted it when the people repented.
Sometimes when He pronounces a judgment He himself raises up intercessors for those who will become the targets of His judgment. Historically, the earliest view of Christian, preachers and apologists was that, while God ordains KEY events like the incarnation and crucifixion, He lets mankind influence Him. While this is unsettling to predeterminists it shows His merciful nature.
For the first 3 to 4 centuries the idea that man has a choice was the universal belief of orthodox Christianity. Their main opponents in this were pagans who, like the Manichaeans believed in absolute determinism. Augustine before his conversion had himself been a Manichee and when he converted to Christianity he imported some of these key beliefs into the dogma of Western Catholicism. He did not know (or care) what the earlier authors had said because Augustine, for all his education, had never bothered to learn the Koine Greek language in which the Bible and the works of his predecessors had been written. Augustine's language was not Greek but Latin. Martin Luther as an Augustinian monk was steeped in Augustinianism. John Calvin was also an enthusiastic disciple of Augustine. Later, he fell too fell back into his beliefs about determinism.
As long as it's not at odds with the plain reading of scripture. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Yes, but we should not deviate from the plain, clear reading of scripture. In other words, allow scripture to be as honest and literal as possible unless the context determines otherwise. The words "like" and "as" are key giveaways.
Here is the mind of God according to scripture. If you do this, then I'll take this course of action. But if you do this, then I'll take another course of action. The Lord is never caught off guard or surprised. He knows what course to take that brings out his expected end no matter our choices.
Jeremiah 18:
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Agreed. I just addressed this in another thread.
We should take as straightforward what appears straightforward, but not hold that dogmatically. We are to interpret what is unclear by what is clear, not the other way around. As I have heard it said, "Accept the plain sense unless the plain sense makes no sense." The challenge is that when we start comparing one passage with another, the "plain sense" of each passage may become unworkable. That's why we need to take the whole counsel of Scripture rather than playing any passage against any other.
While the KJV renders it differently, Psalm 119:160a literally means "The truth is found when we put all of Scripture together."
It seems clear that you have very little if any interest in the Words of God as He delivered them in Hebrew, Greek and Chaldee/Aramaic to His people. You have no interest in investigating what the actual words God gave actually say, but you are much more enamoured with the traditions of men you have been raised in and have spent your time in this thread merely propagating those opinions of men who have bequeathed to you your particular form of religion. You have not addressed any of my explanations as to why your proof texts do not prove your expansive claims, but you have simply mocked the idea that the Holy Spirit can speak directly to one of God's servants through His word and give that person insight into what His words truly mean, and that meaning might lie outside of the range of ideas you have been taught by men.
All you have been doing is declaring your allegiance to one early strand of Christian interpretation that labelled itself orthodoxy so as to, by implication, invalidate any of the other variant strands of Christian interpretation. You are choosing particular men's opinions and placing them above receiving a direct revelation from the Holy Spirit and God's Word (given in Hebrew, Chaldee/Aramaic and Greek). You are calling men like Iranaeus, Origen and Augustine, "Teacher", when we have one teacher, the Christ. That is what heresy (from haireO, I choose) is - choosing preferred teachers rather than sitting at the feet of the Holy Spirit and Christ. That is what Paul rebukes in
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.