Is Anything Not Predestinated by God?

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You believe a metaphysical understanding passed on traditions from Platonist ideas bleeding into the Church. You won't find any timeless realm mentioned in the Bible.

How can I be in God's present time or inHis past time, if you claim He is timeless?
Yep theres no way to reason with you, you don't want to understand how something could know your future, instead you make accusations that its determinism, or you don't want to accept how he does know the future or how he can change your future and set your future,

Anyhow its well known that God does know the future, it's well known that he changes the future, only for you it's an arguments that fits in a little box.
 
If God is the creator of the universe, then God must be outside of time as time is linked to matter/energy in our universe as has been proven mathematically with experimental support. God being outside of time is like our being outside the timeline of a novel, we can jump in or know what is going on whenever we wish to in the novel's timeline. In one case that I found totally delightful, the novel was written in reverse. Each chapter followed a proper sequence of actions, but the next chapter started earlier in time. Thus, sometimes you read about a perfectly normal random event occurring then in a subsequent chapter you find out that the event was staged for a specific purpose. And yes, it does end with a final twist that I, at least, did not anticipate. I was expecting some final twist, but not what I found.

But back to God, being outside of time does not require Him to know every detail, He might but does not have to. He can control ultimate outcomes without knowing specific choices. Finite, flawed humans can set up probability experiments and accurately predict the outcome without knowing how any individual step in the total process will work. Randomly flip a coin a million times and you will end up very close to an even number of heads and tails. Yet if you only flip the coin two times, you have a 50-50 chance of having the same side up in both flips.

As for sin in creation, for one thing it depends on exactly what God considers "sin", not humans, but also was creation set up in such a way as to require sin, which depending on why one thinks creation was undertaken might actually be the case. That is, if creation was done to educate humans about sin, then the chance for sin would have been required. Genesis 1 does not say the world was perfect when created, rather ir claims that the world was functioning exactly as God wanted it to.
 
Romans 8:29
For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren.
To the thread title question, Scripture doesn’t answer this question directly or clearly. What it does tell us is that God knows possible future events and that He has “predestined” believers to be conformed to the image of His Son. It doesn’t tell us about everything being predestined, which would implicate God for all sin. So the answer is logically “No, not everything is predestined.”
 
Yep theres no way to reason with you, you don't want to understand how something could know your future, instead you make accusations that its determinism, or you don't want to accept how he does know the future or how he can change your future and set your future,

Anyhow its well known that God does know the future, it's well known that he changes the future, only for you it's an arguments that fits in a little box.

You are not "reasoning" with me. You are merely making assertions of things your traditions have taught you and claiming that cherry-picked wrested-out-of-context Bible verses say what you are asserting. You are not explaining how the verse and context require your interpretation., i.e. giving reasons/reasoning for your interpretation.

When you say that God can change His future when creatures depart from walking in the future He intended for them, you are actually affirming open theism.

Yeo God can change the future how he sees fit.

he thinks he identified a flaw in scripture that reveals God doesn't always know the future, but really he hasn't. All hes identified is how God sets the future in those instances or changes the future,

Biblical understandings more than suggest mankind is in a timeless perspective with God, where God is knowing the future, and how he chooses to change mankind's future he already knows,
Such as espesians 1:4 2 and all the other passages cited to you.

Those statements of yours admit that the future is not settled, if God can change it depending on what creatures choose to do.
 
You are not "reasoning" with me. You are merely making assertions of things your traditions have taught you and claiming that cherry-picked wrested-out-of-context Bible verses say what you are asserting. You are not explaining how the verse and context require your interpretation., i.e. giving reasons/reasoning for your interpretation.

When you say that God can change His future when creatures depart from walking in the future He intended for them, you are actually affirming open theism.







Those statements of yours admit that the future is not settled, if God can change it depending on what creatures choose to do.
your on a illogical path to irrationality
 
You are not "reasoning" with me. You are merely making assertions of things your traditions have taught you and claiming that cherry-picked wrested-out-of-context Bible verses say what you are asserting. You are not explaining how the verse and context require your interpretation., i.e. giving reasons/reasoning for your interpretation.

When you say that God can change His future when creatures depart from walking in the future He intended for them, you are actually affirming open theism.







Those statements of yours admit that the future is not settled, if God can change it depending on what creatures choose to do.
God does change the future

Isaiah 38 God told king Hezekiah via telling isaiah to deliver the message that he was going to die, king Hezekiah then Prayed and God have him 15 more years.

Remember you denied another passage like this, in another thread, about Nineveh which means you can't be reasoned with.
 
I myself would refer to Luther about predetermination. According to what I understand in the Concordia Book of Confessions, predetermination is bound up by doctrine and certain kinds of dogma unique to some enclaves of Christianity. Certainly in Baptism we are said to be predetermined to salvation, for the water is not simply meant to cleanse us from sin by its physical characteristics but in complete adherance to the spoken word of God which is eternal.
 
God foreknew only those He predestinated. Is this true or false?

I know God foreknew the Jews that's scripture.

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Roman's chapters 2-11; is Paul's narrative on why Israel failed.

There is also a very serious warning for the Gentiles in chapter 11.

Romans 11:20-22
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited,
but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. See then the kindness
and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness;
for otherwise you too will be cut off
.

The lesson here?

The Jews were severed for their unbelief but the Gentiles were warned. That they too could be severed
for their unbelief.

Your question concerns individual election which is problematic.

Since Romans is concerned with covenant Jews and Gentiles, not individuals.
 
Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

You may be applying a verse that your quoting out of context.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name
cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The key point in the passage above is that Jesus did not know these people.
 
Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Romans 8:29
For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren.

Your idea concerning divine determination belongs more to the world of philosophy.

Christianity is all about Jesus and His unconditional love for us.
 
If you program robots, they will either do what you want or, if allowed, choose to go their own way. It would seem that these are the only two choices available to a creator.

The free will option requires some plan to recover some.

Are they AI powered robots able to make choices on the way they perform duties?
 
God does change the future

Isaiah 38 God told king Hezekiah via telling isaiah to deliver the message that he was going to die, king Hezekiah then Prayed and God have him 15 more years.

Remember you denied another passage like this, in another thread, about Nineveh which means you can't be reasoned with.

So, you are an open theist, if you believe God can change the future.

I doubt that I denied God changed His mind re Nineveh, since I believe He did change His mind about destroying Nineveh when they repented.
 
T
God does change the future

Isaiah 38 God told king Hezekiah via telling isaiah to deliver the message that he was going to die, king Hezekiah then Prayed and God have him 15 more years.

Remember you denied another passage like this, in another thread, about Nineveh which means you can't be reasoned with.

You are an open theist, if you believe God changes the future.
 
So, you are an open theist, if you believe God can change the future.

I doubt that I denied God changed His mind re Nineveh, since I believe He did change His mind about destroying Nineveh when they repented.
nope there future was already set, and he changed it
 
As I understand it Open Theism is a view that a weak God sits on the sidelines watching what happens. This is in contrast with a powerful God that controls everything that happens in everyone's life.

Perhaps a better construct is an all powerful God that has set in motion his plan to offer salvation and is looking forward to the harvest of those who take advantage of his offer.
 
As I understand it Open Theism is a view that a weak God sits on the sidelines watching what happens. This is in contrast with a powerful God that controls everything that happens in everyone's life.

Perhaps a better construct is an all powerful God that has set in motion his plan to offer salvation and is looking forward to the harvest of those who take advantage of his offer.
Yep it's so nice to know exactly how people just treat just faith here, it's quite the common theme. The labellers rule here.
 
As I understand it Open Theism is a view that a weak God sits on the sidelines watching what happens. This is in contrast with a powerful God that controls everything that happens in everyone's life.

Perhaps a better construct is an all powerful God that has set in motion his plan to offer salvation and is looking forward to the harvest of those who take advantage of his offer.
Neither you nor @Jordan understand what Open Theism is. You are arguing against something you have not taken the time to understand, but you have believed a strawman version of Open Theism that closed theist have invented to poison the well against their opposition.

Open theism simply asserts that God is free and has the power to do something different from what He originally intended to do, and therefore the future has not been settled from the beginning. Rather than this being a weak God who merely observes from the sidelines, this is a Powerful and wise God who is able to interact with the decisions of creatures to keep His ultimate goals viable no matter what creatures choose to do.

Closed Theism asserts that God has always known from the beginning of creation exactly what will happen at every point in history. That is what both exhaustive predeterminism (e.g Calvinism) and exhaustive foreknowledge or compatibilism (e.g. Molinism)) all assert. If anyone concedes that God can change the future from what He originally expected to happen, even in one point, they are an open theist. This version of God is weaker and less wise that the Open God, because He cannot have confidence that He id able to achieve His ultimate purposes without either controlling or knowing in advance absolutely every possible move of His creatures.
 
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Neither you nor @Jordan understand what Open Theism is. You are arguing against something you have not taken the time to understand, but you have believed a strawman version of Open Theism that closed theist have invented to poison the well against their opposition.

Open theism simply asserts that God is free and has the power to do something different from what He originally intended to do, and therefore the future has not been settled from the beginning. Rather than this being a weak God who merely observes from the sidelines, this is a Powerful and wise God who is able to interact with the decisions of creatures to keep His ultimate goals viable no matter what creatures choose to do.

Closed Theism asserts that God has always known from the beginning of creation exactly what will happen at every point in history. That is what both exhaustive predeterminism (e.g Calvinism) and exhaustive foreknowledge or compatibilism (e.g. Molinism)) all assert. If anyone concedes that God can change the future from what He originally expected to happen, even in one point, they are an open theist. This version of God is weaker and less wise that the Open God, because He cannot have confidence that He id able to achieve His ultimate purposes without either controlling or knowing in advance absolutely every possible move of His creatures.
Yep the list of labels is quite dull in your book and quite full, and rules your decision making,
 
Neither you nor @Jordan understand what Open Theism is. You are arguing against something you have not taken the time to understand, but you have believed a strawman version of Open Theism that closed theist have invented to poison the well against their opposition.

Open theism simply asserts that God is free and has the power to do something different from what He originally intended to do, and therefore the future has not been settled from the beginning. Rather than this being a weak God who merely observes from the sidelines, this is a Powerful and wise God who is able to interact with the decisions of creatures to keep His ultimate goals viable no matter what creatures choose to do.

Closed Theism asserts that God has always known from the beginning of creation exactly what will happen at every point in history. That is what both exhaustive predeterminism (e.g Calvinism) and exhaustive foreknowledge or compatibilism (e.g. Molinism)) all assert. If anyone concedes that God can change the future from what He originally expected to happen, even in one point, they are an open theist. This version of God is weaker and less wise that the Open God, because He cannot have confidence that He id able to achieve His ultimate purposes without either controlling or knowing in advance absolutely every possible move of His creatures.
A quick search explains there are several options to Open and Closed theism:

The Major “Middle” Positions
1. Molinism (Middle Knowledge)
This is the most commonly cited middle position.
Core idea:
God knows:
What could happen (all possibilities)
  1. What would happen in any possible circumstance
  2. What will happen in the world He chooses to actualize
Why it’s a middle ground:

God has exhaustive foreknowledge
Humans still possess libertarian free will
God does not cause free choices but sovereignly orders the world knowing how people will freely act

Why many like it:

Preserves God’s omniscience
Avoids fatalism
Explains prophecy and providence without coercion

Common critique:

Relies on “counterfactuals of freedom,” which some say lack grounding

Simple Foreknowledge
Another widely held mediating view.
Core idea:

God knows the future exhaustively because it will happen, not because He determines it.
God’s knowledge does not cause events; it simply reflects them.

Why it’s a middle ground:

God knows all future free choices
God does not determine them
No denial of omniscience, unlike Open Theism


Common critique:

Hard to explain how foreknowledge doesn’t still imply necessity
Less philosophically developed than Molinism

Compatibilism (Soft Determinism)
Often associated with Reformed theology, but still distinct from strict determinism.

Core idea:
Human choices are free in the sense that we act according to our desires
God sovereignly ordains all events, including free choices

Why it’s sometimes seen as “between”:

Rejects Open Theism
Redefines freedom rather than eliminating it

Why some reject it:

Freedom feels redefined, not preserved
Libertarian freedom is denied


Classical Theism with Relational Language

A growing number of theologians maintain classical attributes but interpret biblical language carefully.

Core idea:
God is timeless and unchanging in essence
Scriptural depictions of God “changing His mind” are anthropomorphic or relational, not metaphysical

Why it feels like a middle path:

Takes biblical relational language seriously
Retains classical doctrine without Open Theism’s conclusions


Where Most Evangelicals Land Today

Among conservative evangelical scholars:
Colonist and Simple Foreknowledge are the most common bridging positions
  • Open Theism remains a minority view
  • Classical determinism is often softened to preserve moral responsibility

Bottom Line

Yes—there is not just one, but several accepted positions between Open and Closed Theism.

Most Christians who reject Open Theism still want to avoid a rigid determinism, and those positions exist precisely to do that.