Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

A person commences to exist when the Breath of Life and the Body unite. What is the only logical conclusion for what happens to the person when the Breath of Life and the Body dissunion?

oh


so when God creates a different body, and puts a spirit which has no personal identifying aspect into that body,
by your logic God would be creating an entirely different soul


so you are saying there is no resurrection, God makes new creatures and artificially inserts fake lying memories into them, deceiving them into believing they have personhood?


you cease to exist and sometime later God creates a new being, and tricks that illusory person into thinking they are you.
that's your hope? that's what you teach people?

 

[SomeDisciple]

From what I can tell, the preacher in the video isn't even arguing against "eternal torment". What he is arguing against is what happens in between death and the end Judgement- he apparently believes you just stay dead until the final judgement. Near the end of the video, he even says the parable could find literal fulfillment at the end of the world.

I don't see why "eternal torment" would drive people to atheism, either. It might make sense if you think you are more qualified than God to hand out eternal rewards... good luck explaining that to God, though.

 

[posthuman]

A person commences to exist when the Breath of Life and the Body unite. What is the only logical conclusion for what happens to the person when the Breath of Life and the Body dissunion?

suppose i kill your dog, then i grow a clone of your dog and teach that dog to think it is the original dog
i give you that lab grown dog.

are you happy with your replacement dog?
does your dog have eternal life, if i keep annihilating your dog, but making new dogs in the laboratory and giving them the same name?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't know, but being a beggar by a rich man's gate, being covered in sores, and people being cruel to him isn't the gospel of how you get to paradise. Jesus never said that anywhere else. Jesus said the way to the Father is through faith in Him.

You seem to have totally missed the point. Until the resurrection of Christ all the OT saints (the righteous) were in "Abraham's Bosom" (the location of the righteous in Hades).
So Lazarus -- a specific individual -- went there after he died (his soul and spirit went there). These men were deemed to be righteous because God had imputed righteousness to them (as He did to Abraham who believed God). Paradise is in the New Jerusalem in Heaven, and when Christ ascended to Heaven after His resurrection, He took ALL these saints with Him to Paradise. They are called "the spirits of just [righteous] men made perfect". See Hebrews 12:22-24.

And if you wish to know the Gospel truth about imputed righteousness, study Romans 4.

 

[posthuman]

From what I can tell, the preacher in the video isn't even arguing against "eternal torment". What he is arguing against is what happens in between death and the end Judgement- he apparently believes you just stay dead until the final judgement. Near the end of the video, he even says the parable could find literal fulfillment at the end of the world.

I don't see why "eternal torment" would drive people to atheism, either. It might make sense if you think you are more qualified than God to hand out eternal rewards... good luck explaining that to God, though.

i got that too.

mr. phone doesn't actually agree with the guy in the video -- the objection the guy in the video has is that he doesn't believe Luke 16 can be past tense ((even though Christ says it is)).

 

[posthuman]

Christ was 3 days and 3 nights in Sheol - did Christ cease to exist?

a frog's butt

did Jesus Christ cease to exist after the cross?
was the Son of God recreated on the third day?

 

[Nehemiah6]

But the Parable is not actually about Hell, it's about the Jews losing the position and place they had in God, and the Gentiles taking their place.

No. That is a complete misunderstanding.

The historical narrative -- not parable -- is about Sheol/Hades, the region where the souls and spirits went after death (and now only the unsaved go there). The words "hell" and "the grave" should never have been used for Sheol/Hades by the KJV translators. And it is not about the Jews losing their position, but about the selfish and covetous Pharisees who loved their wealth and despised the poor, and did not understand that they were on the brink of eternal damnation.

What most people fail to see is that there is a break between Christ's teaching on divorce to the Pharisees, and His teaching on the afterlife (also to the Pharisees). Luke chapter 16 is divided into three sections:

Verses 1-13 -- Faithful Stewardship (applicable to all Christians today)

Verses 14- 18: Multiple rebukes against the Pharisees who mocked Christ

Verses 19-31: Teaching on the afterlife. It is quite significant that all through the OT, Sheol is mentioned as the place of departed souls without much clarification. But here Christ expands the meaning of Sheol/Hades to explain that (a) the righteous dead are separated from the unrighteous dead by a great chasm (which cannot be crossed over) , (b) there is already torment for the unrighteous in Hades, and (c) the region of the righteous is metaphorically called "Abraham's bosom" (since Abraham is the example of those to whom righteousness was imputed because of their faith). So all the OT saints since Abel were also present there (see Hebrews 11).

And while the body of Christ lay in the tomb, His soul and spirit went to Sheol/Hades to preach to "the spirits in prison" (since Sheol/Hades was virtually a prison for the righteous, but in reality a prison for the unrighteous). But David (about 1,000 years before the crucifixion) spoke these words of Christ by divine inspiration in Psalm 16:10: For thou wilt not leave my soul in SHEOL; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Therefore Peter quoted this on the day of Pentecost to confirm that Christ remained in Sheol/Hades for only three days and three nights, and was then resurrected (Acts 2:27,31): Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HADES, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption... He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in HADES, neither his flesh did see corruption. So when Christ rose from the dead He took all the OT saints (including Lazarus) to Paradise (Eph 4:8-10).

 

[Webers.Home]

.

The preacher in the video says that this "parable" is taking place at the end,
when judgement has taken place... but that doesn't sound right. Because if
that was the case, when the rich man wanted to warn his brothers about his
torment, Abraham would have just been like "it's over dude, we at
judgement now", but instead he says they have the law and the prophets,
let them hear them... so, this can't be after judgement is taken place
already- because people still need the law and the prophets to avoid this
place of torment.

Well; I'm profoundly impressed that somebody picked up on that! Thank you
for an excellent bit of insight.

Abraham recommended that the man's five brethren consult the Old
Testament; which isn't necessarily futile because 2Tim 3:15 says the OT is
able to make folks wise unto salvation.

However, the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells
me that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken
place: which leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that
took place prior to both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.
_

 

[Webers.Home]

.

parables use actual things that you understand and liken them to similar
things that you don't understand.

I'm onboard with that evaluation 100%

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that couldn't possibly
be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable— banquets,
stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets,
women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the
wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had stepped out of character with a story containing a moon
made of green cheese; we would have good reason to suspect that at least
that particular parable was fantasy; but they're all very consistent; not one
of them is so far removed from normalcy as to have no basis in reality
whatsoever.
_

 

[posthuman]

The preacher in the video says that this "parable" is taking place at the end, when judgement has taken place... but that doesn't sound right. Because if that was the case, when the rich man wanted to warn his brothers about his torment, Abraham would have just been like "it's over dude, we at judgement now", but instead he says they have the law and the prophets, let them hear them... so, this can't be after judgement is taken place already- because people still need the law and the prophets to avoid this place of torment.

I do agree with the "certain man" point, about language- so, it might be a parable, but even then, like I said before- parables use actual things that you understand and liken them to similar things that you don't understand.

yes

the rich man asks to send someone back to them, to warn them.
that can't be an 'after the end of the world' context -- there's no 'back there' to be sent to.

 

[posthuman]

the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells
me that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken
place: which leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that
took place prior to both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.

yes, exactly as Christ presented it: as a true account of actual events which take place in reality, relevant and accurate in every detail to the ones hearing it, which includes us

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

The popular yet erroneous teaching about Rich Man and Lazarus has succeeded to both strike fear in the hearts of Christians and drive countless others to atheism, because those who refuse to recognize this passage in Luke 16 as the parable that it is use it to advance the false idea of Eternal Torment - a doctrine of devils - because they know then can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here's the other side of the story:

Luke 16:19-31 means in our common language, is "No backsies. Repent while you are alive, not to regret when you are about to be judged."
Certainly not the doctrine of demonic worms. From fables to boogeymen, now magical vermes.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
• Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment.

Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In
stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other
animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the
biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats
targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted
in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral
goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them.
The red paint marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know
which one not to shoot.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess
it's plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak
a pull from his secret liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard
something coming up behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little
boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever
managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was
easy; I walked in your footprints.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel
knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led
them down a road to the infernal regions and all the while sincerely believing
themselves doing the right thing. In other words: they actually Judas-goated
their children to follow mom and dad down there. For some families, the
only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire
and despair.
_

 

[Phoneman-777]

One question was Sodom a real place or a spiritual place that could not be seen?

It was a real place that "suffered the vengeance of eternal fire", but:

Is Sodom now still burning with "eternal fire" while it's sitting under the Dead Sea?

Does "eternal redemption" mean we get to watch Jesus be nailed to a Cross to redeem us and redeem us for all eternity in heaven?

Does "eternal judgment" mean we get to hear God say, "Order in the court, order in the court" over and over because the judgment never ends?

Eternal fire, redemption, and judgment refers not to the process, but the results of these three.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Certainly not the doctrine of demonic worms.

• Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks The Lord.
And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled
against Me: their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they
will be loathsome to all mankind.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La
Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric
creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in fire is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The
4" Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot
enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create
a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms
that like it even warmer.
_

 

[Phoneman-777]

Luke 16:19-31 means in our common language, is "No backsies. Repent while you are alive, not to regret when you are about to be judged."
Certainly not the doctrine of demonic worms. From fables to boogeymen, now magical vermes.

Only to those who are OK with all the eruption of Biblical contradictions that arise by making that passage literal

 

[Phoneman-777]

interesting

you think it's okay for God to be a brazen liar spreading false pagan myths from the pit of hell ((your description from previous threads)) 'as long as it's only a parable'

so if you lie but you **don't really mean it** then you're not lying?

Is it OK to make God a liar when you claim God shares His "agape" love with the wicked, though Scripture over and over denies that possibility?

 

[posthuman]

Is it OK to make God a liar

did Christ cease to exist when He died?

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

It has always been Good News if you felt like Lazarus and right away were very glad how poor Lazarus whom nobody cared for and had his sores licked by dogs in this miserably life and dies gets comforted in the heart of Abraham he longed for. Not so good news for those that are more like the Rich Man, how he wishes that Lazarus who ate his crumbs would dip his finger in some water to cool his tongue. He asks to warn their descendants and family, but they have Moses and the Prophets who told them everything also, if they won't hear them, they certainly wouldn't hear one even if he were to rise from the dead.

 

[posthuman]

It has always been Good News if you felt like Lazarus and right away were very glad how poor Lazarus whom nobody cared for and had his sores licked by dogs in this miserably life and dies gets comforted in the heart of Abraham he longed for.

the dogs ministering to Lazarus is good news - they are the servants of God to that poor man - and bad news for that rich man, because insofar as he treated Lazarus, he was worse than a dog to him