Oh ok
I see what rm is saying.
He somehow needs paradise to still be on earth.
Is he sda?
Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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I see what rm is saying.
He somehow needs paradise to still be on earth.
Is he sda?
"Eternal", "everlasting fire" "forever and ever", yep they are still there. Belief in the "everlasting fire" is not required for residency therein. What's really sad is that "Christians" will lead their families to Hell with them, "forever and ever".
It does not matter if it was physical or spiritual. He clearly wrote that he was caught up to paradise. Nothing Symbolic in that sentence about being caught up to paradise.
- 2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - 2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
It does not matter if it was physical or spiritual. He clearly wrote that he was caught up to paradise. Nothing Symbolic in that sentence about being caught up to paradise.
- 2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations- 2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations- 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations- Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Have you read Daniel or Revelation before? Visions are not always literal especially when there isn’t a good reason to take them literal. For example, the only people that are documented to have been “caught up”, basically raptured, in the Bible are Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus Christ. Paul personally knew none of them except for Jesus Christ, via a vision on the road to Demascus, when Jesus revealed Himself to Paul, not as a man, but as a Spirit. We may never know who Paul was talking about unless God chooses to reveal that to us.
Yet Paul was intentionally vague about this man he knew that was caught up to the third heaven. The reason this isn’t literally physical is because Paul had a symbolic vision of it, as he admitted in 2 Cor. 12:1.
Anyway, you’re free to interpret it that way and I understand why you do; I just disagree with that perspective.
Satan loves it when people don't believe in the "everlasting fire" that Jesus taught. Satan wants their company "forever and ever".
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
The greek for mystery is G3466 Strong's. mustérion . The root usage is
Generic: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary;
in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.
The Scripture is further revealed but is not created. There is no occult knowledge like the kabbalah, or gnostics.
Of the 20 verses, how many talk about hell as a mystery? None. If you wish to fantasize about a big A antichrist with 2 Thessalonians 2:7, about the lawless one, then I have so many more questions to your eshatology.
The mystery is what we may not understand of the bible - Christ, Purpose, Functional Operations, etc.. All things that has to do with Jesus Christ, his Coming, and the salvation he offers.
Why are hellmongers so concerned with with a place of eternal torture? The only answer is they are not concerned with Christ's return but rather control of the masses through fear, the continuation of the pagan history. Augustine was enthralled by a persian philosopher named mani. The dualism of good and evil appears to have tainted the understanding of the Scriptures in the last days.
You're calling Jesus a hellmonger?The greek for mystery is G3466 Strong's. mustérion . The root usage is
Generic: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary;
in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.
The Scripture is further revealed but is not created. There is no occult knowledge like the kabbalah, or gnostics.
Of the 20 verses, how many talk about hell as a mystery? None. If you wish to fantasize about a big A antichrist with 2 Thessalonians 2:7, about the lawless one, then I have so many more questions to your eshatology.
The mystery is what we may not understand of the bible - Christ, Purpose, Functional Operations, etc.. All things that has to do with Jesus Christ, his Coming, and the salvation he offers.
Why are hellmongers so concerned with with a place of eternal torture? The only answer is they are not concerned with Christ's return but rather control of the masses through fear, the continuation of the pagan history. Augustine was enthralled by a persian philosopher named mani. The dualism of good and evil appears to have tainted the understanding of the Scriptures in the last days.
Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Yes, the Bible teaches the dead do not receive bodies until they are resurrected at the end of time, and on that, everyone must agree.
So, when we come to Luke 16, we have a choice: either we remain consistent in our theology and conclude that the passage is a parable, or we throw that aside and demand it's a literal passage despite the many inconsistencies which arise.
If Christians would commune with the Holy Spirit and also examine all scripture dealing with this subject, they would know the unsaved will be tormented by the sins they've committed and that torment will be temporary, ending with the life of the unrepentant.
C
ChristianTonyB
Guest
I don't see the point of your argument. Whether we define the Lord's teaching here as being delivered through the use of a parable, a metaphor, an illustration, or whatever, the Lord's message to us is straight forward. The simple reality is, that Jesus is giving us a warning... if we choose to live our life in an opulent and haughty manner here on earth, being inconsiderate of God and His grace, and die in that condition, then we can expect to pay for that immediately after we die. If you have ever felt thirsty, hungry, fearful, depressed, despairing, friendless, isolated, and the like here on earth, then roll all those feelings together and add the fact that there will be no relief for you until you 'have paid back every penny' (... a metaphor) to God that He deems you owe Him, that's what your experience in Hell will be like, with no escape possible.
I am not calling Jesus a hellmonger. All the verses quoted last contains questions of Salvation, Resurrection, Heaven, etc... Not about the structure of hell. Not about the mandate of hell. It should indicate to you what Jesus was saying.
I am calling you a hellmonger. You peddle this false doctrine as one would sell fish. Should I be fearful that a fable is foisted on the Scriptures? Or should I point out the pedigree of such false doctrine. It is consistent with false religions that see to control rather than emancipate.
Did I call you fool? Not at all. I don't even know you. I do know the spirit in which you speak. A nicolaitan spirit exudes from your very words. No solace, no hindsight, just self-righteous piety. Just keep the children afraid is the end result.
How long was the torment or the flames in this verse. Eternal? Where pray tell is it written. Where is the lake of fire situated? How does one know so much but was never there?
"Amen Jesus! The rich man died but was alive tormented in fire". As stated before 75% of so called christians supported torture - patriot act. I suspect they are hellmongers justifying their own vices with a worldly understatnding of the bible. I suspect you have will have a lot to explain at the Mercy Seat.
What is the difference between an unquenchable fire and an eternal fire? Is the unquenchable fire of the Holy Spirit different from the eternal fires of hell? Where do they sit in your eternity spectrum?
The greek for mystery is G3466 Strong's. mustérion . The root usage is
Generic: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary;
in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.
The Scripture is further revealed but is not created. There is no occult knowledge like the kabbalah, or gnostics.
Of the 20 verses, how many talk about hell as a mystery? None. If you wish to fantasize about a big A antichrist with 2 Thessalonians 2:7, about the lawless one, then I have so many more questions to your eshatology.
The mystery is what we may not understand of the bible - Christ, Purpose, Functional Operations, etc.. All things that has to do with Jesus Christ, his Coming, and the salvation he offers.
Why are hellmongers so concerned with with a place of eternal torture? The only answer is they are not concerned with Christ's return but rather control of the masses through fear, the continuation of the pagan history. Augustine was enthralled by a persian philosopher named mani. The dualism of good and evil appears to have tainted the understanding of the Scriptures in the last days.
Your post is a good demonstration of the root fallacy.
"The etymological fallacy is sometimes called the "root fallacy," which says that the root [origin] of a word is its true meaning. "
I
Hi Brother, If it is a parable where is the explanation to the disciples?
Luke 16:19-17:22
Easy-to-Read Version
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 Jesus said, “There was a rich man who always dressed in the finest clothes. He was so rich that he was able to enjoy all the best things every day. 20 There was also a very poor man named Lazarus. Lazarus’ body was covered with sores. He was often put by the rich man’s gate. 21 Lazarus wanted only to eat the scraps of food left on the floor under the rich man’s table. And the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “Later, Lazarus died. The angels took him and placed him in the arms of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 He was sent to the place of death[a] and was in great pain. He saw Abraham far away with Lazarus in his arms. 24 He called, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to me so that he can dip his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am suffering in this fire!’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘My child, remember when you lived? You had all the good things in life. But Lazarus had nothing but problems. Now he is comforted here, and you are suffering. 26 Also, there is a big pit between you and us. No one can cross over to help you, and no one can come here from there.’
27 “The rich man said, ‘Then please, father Abraham, send Lazarus to my father’s house on earth. 28 I have five brothers. He could warn my brothers so that they will not come to this place of pain.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have the Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets to read; let them learn from that.’
30 “The rich man said, ‘No, father Abraham! But if someone came to them from the dead, then they would decide to change their lives.’
31 “But Abraham said to him, ‘If your brothers won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen to someone who comes back from the dead.’”
Sin and Forgiveness
17 Jesus said to his followers, “Things will surely happen that will make people sin. But it will be very bad for anyone who makes this happen. 2 It will be very bad for anyone who makes one of these little children sin. It would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be drowned in the sea. 3 So be careful!
“If your brother or sister in God’s family does something wrong, warn them. If they are sorry for what they did, forgive them. 4 Even if they do something wrong to you seven times in one day, but they say they are sorry each time, you should forgive them.”
How Big Is Your Faith?
5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Give us more faith!”
6 The Lord said, “If your faith is as big as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Dig yourself up and plant yourself in the ocean!’ And the tree will obey you.
Be Good Servants
7 “Suppose one of you has a servant who has been working in the field, plowing or caring for the sheep. When he comes in from work, what would you say to him? Would you say, ‘Come in, sit down and eat’? 8 Of course not! You would say to your servant, ‘Prepare something for me to eat. Then get ready and serve me. When I finish eating and drinking, then you can eat.’ 9 The servant should not get any special thanks for doing his job. He is only doing what his master told him to do. 10 It is the same with you. When you finish doing all that you are told to do, you should say, ‘We are not worthy of any special thanks. We have only done the work we should do.’”
Be Thankful
11 Jesus was traveling to Jerusalem. He went from Galilee to Samaria. 12 He came into a small town, and ten men met him there. They did not come close to him, because they all had leprosy. 13 But the men shouted, “Jesus! Master! Please help us!”
14 When Jesus saw the men, he said, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.”
While the ten men were going to the priests, they were healed. 15 When one of them saw that he was healed, he went back to Jesus. He praised God loudly. 16 He bowed down at Jesus’ feet and thanked him. (He was a Samaritan.) 17 Jesus said, “Ten men were healed; where are the other nine? 18 This man is not even one of our people. Is he the only one who came back to give praise to God?” 19 Then Jesus said to the man, “Stand up! You can go. You were healed because you believed.”
The Coming of God’s Kingdom
20 Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will God’s kingdom come?”
Jesus answered, “God’s kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you can see it. 21 People will not say, ‘Look, God’s kingdom is here!’ or ‘There it is!’ No, God’s kingdom is here with you.[c]”
22 Then Jesus said to his followers, “The time will come when you will want very much to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not be able to.
So, you're saying I'm a hellmonger because I quote Jesus. I'll take Jesus over your opinions any day.
You obviously don't read your own posts! And you didn't read my reply.
He was alive in the fire. I suggest you read the rest of the NT, "everlasting fire", "eternal" "forever and ever".
Why would I have to explain believing Jesus? You have it backwards.
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"
"Unquenchable", "eternal", "everlasting", "forever and ever", no difference.
There's a myriad of verses that say people are destroyed, perish, are put to death, and don't have everlasting life in hell. In order to make hell eternal conscious torment, you have to find way to give Eternal Life to unbelievers. Once you absorb that irreconcilable fact, a lot of light bulbs should start turning on.
If there's no eternal Hell fire then let's party! We will all have eternal peace even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro. We can commit murder all day long and still have eternal peace, if you are right.
So where's all those verses you're talking about? It's a very dangerous thing to remove the "everlasting fire" from the Bible since Jesus was perfectly clear that many will burn in Hell "forever and ever". You're calling Jesus a liar.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Can we really declare "Abraham's bosom" as literal and then point to that as "proof" that it's literal? Isn't that the very definition of "circular reasoning"?