Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[TheLearner]

It has no meaning to me as I consider the rich man and Lazarus a parable. But if Luke 16 is a real hell convo, Abraham never said a ghost cannot go back to living. Just that it was unfruitful to do so. Hellraisers believe in ghosts.

Luke 16:27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Goose bumps all over now!

As you may know, revelations from God are progressive.

Note this text is post raising of Jesus from the grave where he preached to awake spirits of the dead. I Peter 3


Hebrews 12

Common English Bible



Let’s also run the race
12 So then, with endurance, let’s also run the race that is laid out in front of us, since we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us. Let’s throw off any extra baggage, get rid of the sin that trips us up, 2 and fix our eyes on Jesus, faith’s pioneer and perfecter. He endured the cross, ignoring the shame, for the sake of the joy that was laid out in front of him, and sat down at the right side of God’s throne.

 

[TheLearner]

Videos take too long. I can read theological statements much faster. Videos drive me nuts with their excessive talking. I hate listening to 20 minutes of video that could have been stated in one concise paragraph. It is so rude.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...artin chapter on "soul sleep" article&f=false

Check out from local library Kingdom of the Cults and read chapter on SDAism. Also, chapter on Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[TheLearner]

And I already told you that Jewish tradition is just that: Jewish tradition.

You remember what Jesus said about the traditions of men, right?

It reflects Jewish understanding and Christianity is a Jewish sect.

 

[TheLearner]

Anyway, I’m done with this liar. Folks, don’t let satanists like this mislead you with his false and easily refutable teachings.

SDA agree with us on Major Theology like whom Jesus is and what he did on the Cross. friend.

 

[TheLearner]

That's a very legalistic way of looking at things. What God desires is our attention on Sabbath, which we can't render if we're running around gathering kindling, sticks, and logs, and then sitting there rubbing and rubbing until there's smoke. Now, is turning a key to start an engine the equivalent?

Of course, medical care, emergency services, religious services, etc. are acceptable on Sabbath, but "routine" work is what God desires we lay aside and come together with Him and His people. Are you against setting aside 24 hours of sanctified time to pray, minister, fellowship?

I played the legalism card so you can show that you are not legalistic. Turning the key of our car starts combustion in the engine which is in fact starting fires. That is why I walk to church. How do you handle the 613 Torah laws? You should not choose one to keep while ignoring the other 603 laws.

Aside: when I was at Lowery AFB, SDA Missionaries joined me when visiting Mormon Missionary homes to learn how to witness the real Jesus to LDS people.

 

[TheLearner]

But wouldn't Jewish tradition be more likely that which was the "familiar content" of the parable than any Greek pagan idea?

The SDA and yourself has suggested that Jesus was using a common Greek pagan idea they had. That does not make sense. Wouldn't he be using a Jewish tradition they had?

Are you saying Jesus would not use a Jewish tradition but he would a Pagan tradition to teach a parable?

stop at post 556

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

The word for immortality is also used in only God is immortal proof text.
Since the Resurrection is General Matthew 25, both the goats and sheep get the same kind of immortal body friend.

Are you some sort a mormon? I don't think we are little gods from that planet and many wives (not all bad).
How come I keep hearing the snake? "Believe in the hell and you surely won't die".

Paraphrasing Matt 25 about sheeps and goats
When Jesus comes as King with the Iron Sceptre (All Authority)
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

He is going to rain Holy Fire to folks on His Left. (missing a verse - see (a)
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

He lets those on His Right, go in the House of God and get our cloaks. I want grey myself but I think it comes in one colour.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

(a) missing a verse
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I know it doesn't say unquenchable fire but close enough.

Please tell me how to get immortality without being on His Right. I certainly like my vices and vanities! But what do they say, can't have your cake and eat it! Well maybe in hell...

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

As you may know, revelations from God are progressive.

Note this text is post raising of Jesus from the grave where he preached to awake spirits of the dead. I Peter 3

I know prophecies are plainly spoken. There is no mysticism or mystery.
2Cor 3:12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Unless of course revelation is not part of the speech or prophecy about which Paul is talking. Please explain the veiled word progressive, if you must.

The verse is in Luke 16 and Jesus was crucified in Luke 23. I usually follow my narrative sequentially in time, maybe I am missing something. Please explain post raising of Jesus - Scripturally please.
Jesus upon redeeming the sins of man, ascended to heaven to receive the sealed scroll (after meeting up with his earthly buddies). When did He have time to preach to the dead?

Hebrews 12

Common English Bible

Let’s also run the race
12 So then, with endurance, let’s also run the race that is laid out in front of us, since we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us. Let’s throw off any extra baggage, get rid of the sin that trips us up, 2 and fix our eyes on Jesus, faith’s pioneer and perfecter. He endured the cross, ignoring the shame, for the sake of the joy that was laid out in front of him, and sat down at the right side of God’s throne.

Hebrews 12:12 - I wholeheartedly agree. Throw away of all the doctrines that may blaspheme God, Christ or the Holy Spirit. They may cripple you. The narrowness of the path requires dexterity of character in Christ and discernment from God.
If they speak with a hellmind is it a cloud or smoke? I wonder

 

[Runningman]

Ephesians 4
Easy-to-Read Version
The Unity of the Body
4 So, as a prisoner for the Lord, I beg you to live the way God’s people should live, because he chose you to be his. 2 Always be humble and gentle. Be patient and accept each other with love. 3 You are joined together with peace through the Spirit. Do all you can to continue as you are, letting peace hold you together. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, and God chose you to have one hope. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. 6 There is one God and Father of us all, who rules over everyone. He works through all of us and in all of us.

7 Christ gave each one of us a special gift. Everyone received what he wanted to give them. 8 That is why the Scriptures say,

“He went up high into the sky;
he took prisoners with him,
and he gave gifts to people.”

9 When it says, “He went up,” what does it mean? It means that he first came down low to earth. 10 So Christ came down, and he is the same one who went up. He went up above the highest heaven in order to fill everything with himself. 11 And that same Christ gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.[a] 12 Christ gave these gifts to prepare God’s holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger. 13 This work must continue until we are all joined together in what we believe and in what we know about the Son of God. Our goal is to become like a full-grown man—to look just like Christ and have all his perfection.

Ephesians 4:7-11
King James Version
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Luke 23:43
Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:3-4
And I know that this man was taken up to paradise. I don’t know if he was in his body or away from his body, but he heard things that he is not able to explain. He heard things that no one is allowed to tell.

Revelation 2:7
“Everyone who hears this should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. To those who win the victory I will give the right to eat the fruit from the tree of life, which is in God’s paradise.

These are the texts used to show that when Jesus ascended, he moved paradise to heaven.

Yes there are literally three references to paradise in the New Testament KJV and none of them are very specific. As I demonstated in my previous posts, I think it's more sound to believe paradise is within the Earth and I will quickly explain why.

Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise", referring to a 24 hour period, then when Jesus died He went "into the earth" not to heaven or anywhere else. Jesus did not "ascend to His Father" until post-resurrection, about 40 days later. We can safely conclude that paradise is in the Earth, where Jesus said the thief would be with Him that day, because Jesus went into the "lower parts of the Earth" while His body lay dead.

Also, a bit of advice - take it or leave it - try to think outside the box a bit. The teachings of mainstream Christianity, with the various denominations, cults, and sects is notoriously in error. Be prepared to reject the first thing people tell you in favor of a thorough study of the scripture. Don't settle with believing whatever your pastor tells you either.

 

[Runningman]

They( the patriarchs) never heard the gospel. In hebrews 11 it says they "were/are not complete without us."

The patriarchs then heard the gospel and were raised from the dead

They are now in heaven, or as some put it, " paradise moved to heaven"

No.

I'll just quote to you what I said in a previous post. Chew this one over and see how it tastes:

"Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise", referring to a 24 hour period, then when Jesus died He went "into the earth" not to heaven or anywhere else. Jesus did not "ascend to His Father" until post-resurrection, about 40 days later. We can safely conclude that paradise is in the Earth, where Jesus said the thief would be with Him that day, because Jesus went into the "lower parts of the Earth" while His body lay dead. "

Slam dunk. Paradise is in the Earth.

 

[Diakonos]

Jesus said the wicked are cast bodily into hell, but that's not possible now because we've been to countless funerals where some scoundrel lies there all powdered up and dressed up and there's no smoke or flames.

God will resurrect those scoundrels and make them stand on their feet at His great throne. They will be judged bodily and thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20)..." to disgrace and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12)

 

[CS1]

God will resurrect those scoundrels and make them stand on their feet at His great throne. They will be judged bodily and thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20)..." to disgrace and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12)

wonderful qoute from the word of God, some here don't see "everlasting" as being everlasting. Just saying ,

 

[Runningman]

Daniel 12 "... to disgrace and everlasting contempt.” is a reference to the resurrection and subsequent judgement of the wicked (John 5:29). Notice, they are resurrected to "everlasting contempt" but who is going to be feeling the everlasting contempt? The only people who feel everlasting anything are those with everlasting life (John 3:16) .That makes sense.

Looks like this word "contempt" (Strong's H1860) is only used one other place in the whole Old Testament and it's in Isaiah 66:24. The context is the New Heavens and New Earth that occur after the great white throne judgment. Context fits just fine with Daniel 12.

Isaiah 66:22-24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

According to Isaiah, the wicked who have been killed won't be the ones feeling contempt or abhorrence. The ones feeling abhorrence will be the righteous who are still alive and well and have everlasting life. The wicked have perished at this point and feel nothing.

 

[TheLearner]

Are you some sort a mormon? I don't think we are little gods from that planet and many wives (not all bad).
How come I keep hearing the snake? "Believe in the hell and you surely won't die".

Paraphrasing Matt 25 about sheeps and goats
When Jesus comes as King with the Iron Sceptre (All Authority)
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

He is going to rain Holy Fire to folks on His Left. (missing a verse - see (a)
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

He lets those on His Right, go in the House of God and get our cloaks. I want grey myself but I think it comes in one colour.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

That missing verse is a well know addition to the Latin Vulgate.

(a) missing a verse
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I know it doesn't say unquenchable fire but close enough.

Please tell me how to get immortality without being on His Right. I certainly like my vices and vanities! But what do they say, can't have your cake and eat it! Well maybe in hell...

 

[TheLearner]

Are you some sort a mormon? I don't think we are little gods from that planet and many wives (not all bad).
How come I keep hearing the snake? "Believe in the hell and you surely won't die".

Paraphrasing Matt 25 about sheeps and goats
When Jesus comes as King with the Iron Sceptre (All Authority)
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

He is going to rain Holy Fire to folks on His Left. (missing a verse - see (a)
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

He lets those on His Right, go in the House of God and get our cloaks. I want grey myself but I think it comes in one colour.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

(a) missing a verse
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I know it doesn't say unquenchable fire but close enough.

Please tell me how to get immortality without being on His Right. I certainly like my vices and vanities! But what do they say, can't have your cake and eat it! Well maybe in hell...

stop after post 587

 

[TheLearner]

I know prophecies are plainly spoken. There is no mysticism or mystery.
2Cor 3:12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Unless of course revelation is not part of the speech or prophecy about which Paul is talking. Please explain the veiled word progressive, if you must.

The verse is in Luke 16 and Jesus was crucified in Luke 23. I usually follow my narrative sequentially in time, maybe I am missing something. Please explain post raising of Jesus - Scripturally please.
Jesus upon redeeming the sins of man, ascended to heaven to receive the sealed scroll (after meeting up with his earthly buddies). When did He have time to preach to the dead?


Hebrews 12:12 - I wholeheartedly agree. Throw away of all the doctrines that may blaspheme God, Christ or the Holy Spirit. They may cripple you. The narrowness of the path requires dexterity of character in Christ and discernment from God.
If they speak with a hellmind is it a cloud or smoke? I wonder

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 4:3
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1 Timothy 3:9
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 

[TheLearner]

Yes there are literally three references to paradise in the New Testament KJV and none of them are very specific. As I demonstated in my previous posts, I think it's more sound to believe paradise is within the Earth and I will quickly explain why.

Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise", referring to a 24 hour period, then when Jesus died He went "into the earth" not to heaven or anywhere else. Jesus did not "ascend to His Father" until post-resurrection, about 40 days later. We can safely conclude that paradise is in the Earth, where Jesus said the thief would be with Him that day, because Jesus went into the "lower parts of the Earth" while His body lay dead.

Also, a bit of advice - take it or leave it - try to think outside the box a bit. The teachings of mainstream Christianity, with the various denominations, cults, and sects is notoriously in error. Be prepared to reject the first thing people tell you in favor of a thorough study of the scripture. Don't settle with believing whatever your pastor tells you either.

Paul was caught UP to paradise, thus today it is in heaven. If you are a SDA was Ellen seen a vision in Heaven aka as paradise?
American King James Version — 2Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The apostle Paul early in his Christian experience was given special opportunities to learn the will of God concerning the followers of Jesus. He was “caught up to the third heaven,” “into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” He himself acknowledged that many “visions and revelations” had been given him “of the Lord.” His understanding of the principles of gospel truth was equal to that of “the very chiefest apostles.” 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, 1, 11. He had a clear, full comprehension of “the breadth, and length, and depth, and height” of “the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge.” Ephesians 3:18, 19.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[Runningman]

Paul was caught UP to paradise, thus today it is in heaven. If you are a SDA was Ellen seen a vision in Heaven aka as paradise?
American King James Version — 2Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The apostle Paul early in his Christian experience was given special opportunities to learn the will of God concerning the followers of Jesus. He was “caught up to the third heaven,” “into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” He himself acknowledged that many “visions and revelations” had been given him “of the Lord.” His understanding of the principles of gospel truth was equal to that of “the very chiefest apostles.” 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, 1, 11. He had a clear, full comprehension of “the breadth, and length, and depth, and height” of “the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge.” Ephesians 3:18, 19.

I think this comes down to a matter of reading.

Here's my perspective on this:

Paul's referring to a vision he had and visions are often symbolic:
2 Cor. 12:1 1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. "

And Paul doesn't even know if it was physical or spiritual:
2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven

I have the answer for Paul, though, but he probably wasn't thinking about it at the time. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). So Paul was most likely referring to a vision of something spiritual that was already taking place in the first or second heaven, and not necessarily "up" from earth. "Up" to the third heaven would technically be from the direction of the second heaven. Quite frankly we're just getting into territory that isn't clearly documented in the Bible. Maybe there is more than one paradise?

Why did Jesus say to the thief He'd see Him in paradise and then go to the lower regions of the Earth while He was dead? "Abraham's bosom" is somewhere in the Earth, making it a good candidate for paradise. There just isn't enough for me to say the paradise in the earth is different than the one in the third heaven or that it was emptied.

 

[Absolutely]

No.

I'll just quote to you what I said in a previous post. Chew this one over and see how it tastes:

"Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise", referring to a 24 hour period, then when Jesus died He went "into the earth" not to heaven or anywhere else. Jesus did not "ascend to His Father" until post-resurrection, about 40 days later. We can safely conclude that paradise is in the Earth, where Jesus said the thief would be with Him that day, because Jesus went into the "lower parts of the Earth" while His body lay dead. "

Slam dunk. Paradise is in the Earth.

Pretty sure we agree.