"I Forgive You" -- But What If You Haven't Done Anything Wrong?
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About the example with "Abby" and "Beth," I would think Abby would be pleased. She planned for "Beth" to take her place, so now "Beth" is taking on the job... and doing it better! This should be a GOOD thing.
Though this is not the main point of this thread, it is something we all need to think about. Sometimes we can grumble about a good thing, not even recognize how it could be good, because it steps on our personal pride. I've done it before.
Which gives me an idea for a new thread...
Though this is not the main point of this thread, it is something we all need to think about. Sometimes we can grumble about a good thing, not even recognize how it could be good, because it steps on our personal pride. I've done it before.
Which gives me an idea for a new thread...
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When I was about eleven, several of the neighbourhood kids were playing, and one got offended about something I did. Everyone wanted me to "just apologize", but I refused as I had no idea what I had done that warranted an apology, and the offended kid wouldn't say.
These days, if someone tried something like that, I would stonewall them completely. I have no time for such stupidity. If a person can't articulate the offense, it ain't my problem.
As for the "I forgive you" manouevre, I would simply ask, "For what?" If they can't or won't say, then I would tell them that their profession of forgiveness is meaningless.
These days, if someone tried something like that, I would stonewall them completely. I have no time for such stupidity. If a person can't articulate the offense, it ain't my problem.
As for the "I forgive you" manouevre, I would simply ask, "For what?" If they can't or won't say, then I would tell them that their profession of forgiveness is meaningless.
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I was just about to ask what the best course of action would be when politely refusing false forgiveness.
Thank you for beating me to the punch, Ed!
It's unfortunate (and some might even say heathen) that I often seem to find more examples of what I don't want to be like in the church than those of what I hope to be. I don't think I've ever told someone "I forgive you," UNLESS they specifically asked me to do so, just because I'm hoping to be cautious about being this way to another person.
My only problem with taking the approach of, "I'm so sorry, tell me how to avoid doing wrong against you in the future," is that in this case, you haven't actually done anything wrong against the person. In fact, they are the ones who are doing you wrong, and to ask them how to avoid wronging them "again" not only gives them means to justify their thinking and actions against you, but it reinforces their behavior -- meaning they will do so again all the faster and even more aggressively the next time they think you've done them wrong.
I have a personal belief that people who do this are often strong personalities who are used to "getting away with it" -- for whatever reason, no one calls them out or stands up to them -- and this is exactly why and how they've gotten to be this way.
One of my biggest dilemmas is how to stand up to wrongful behaviors in the church in a God-pleasing manner, because I DON'T want someone to think it's ok and I don't want them to be reinforced to keep doing so.
Even if they totally disregard what I do or have to say, I know my conscience rests a lot easier if I at least try.
I'm sure I probably think this way because I have people in my life who haven't let me get away with very much either, which also puts me at fault too for wanting people to be subjected to the same type of discipline I've been exposed to.
Thank you for beating me to the punch, Ed!
It's unfortunate (and some might even say heathen) that I often seem to find more examples of what I don't want to be like in the church than those of what I hope to be. I don't think I've ever told someone "I forgive you," UNLESS they specifically asked me to do so, just because I'm hoping to be cautious about being this way to another person.
My only problem with taking the approach of, "I'm so sorry, tell me how to avoid doing wrong against you in the future," is that in this case, you haven't actually done anything wrong against the person. In fact, they are the ones who are doing you wrong, and to ask them how to avoid wronging them "again" not only gives them means to justify their thinking and actions against you, but it reinforces their behavior -- meaning they will do so again all the faster and even more aggressively the next time they think you've done them wrong.
I have a personal belief that people who do this are often strong personalities who are used to "getting away with it" -- for whatever reason, no one calls them out or stands up to them -- and this is exactly why and how they've gotten to be this way.
One of my biggest dilemmas is how to stand up to wrongful behaviors in the church in a God-pleasing manner, because I DON'T want someone to think it's ok and I don't want them to be reinforced to keep doing so.
Even if they totally disregard what I do or have to say, I know my conscience rests a lot easier if I at least try.
I'm sure I probably think this way because I have people in my life who haven't let me get away with very much either, which also puts me at fault too for wanting people to be subjected to the same type of discipline I've been exposed to.
This as you said just gives then a false sense of being right about what they think about you...better to challenge their whole mindset with the actual true evidence of the situation and stand firm with this in a Godly way without compromise.It will keep your spiritual integrity intact.
Often the truth is an offense when a person is told it.. but you cant be responsible for how the person feels or reacts when they are told the truth if you have done it in a godly way..but being graceful and merciful and not going about slandering them to many others to make then look bad because if what happened is also important too
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The flesh will try to vindicate or justify itself because most of us don't want to suffer wrong in anyway. A prideful person won't apologize even when they are in the wrong. I have been taught that sometimes we have to suffer wrong even when we are not at fault.
There have been times that I have had to apologize even when I wasn't or didn't feel like I was at fault. I'd say something like I'm sorry you feel that way or sorry for whatever it is that you feel I've done wrong, etc..... even if I didn't feel that I was in the wrong. This is a part of learning to be humble and not prideful.
So with the example given here, I would ask and want to know what someone was forgiving me for just so I could understand where they were coming from. If they chose not to give an explanation then I guess I'd have to deal with it and say I'm sorry you feel that way or something to that affect. I guess, that would be the best way to deal with situations like that. Now do I always do that...no, sometimes I will argue tooth and nail to defend myself, but I don't think that is really what God wants. We are not to be so prideful that we always have to vindicate ourselves or try to prove ourselves to be right.
Scripture teaches this: 1 Peter
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
There have been times that I have had to apologize even when I wasn't or didn't feel like I was at fault. I'd say something like I'm sorry you feel that way or sorry for whatever it is that you feel I've done wrong, etc..... even if I didn't feel that I was in the wrong. This is a part of learning to be humble and not prideful.
So with the example given here, I would ask and want to know what someone was forgiving me for just so I could understand where they were coming from. If they chose not to give an explanation then I guess I'd have to deal with it and say I'm sorry you feel that way or something to that affect. I guess, that would be the best way to deal with situations like that. Now do I always do that...no, sometimes I will argue tooth and nail to defend myself, but I don't think that is really what God wants. We are not to be so prideful that we always have to vindicate ourselves or try to prove ourselves to be right.
Scripture teaches this: 1 Peter
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
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The problem with Beth and Abby is that Beth does not have any discernment and neither is she thoughtful or humble.
The problem with Abby is that she is an introvert. Had Abby been assertive that situation would not have happened. Its her ministry, she is an older woman who took Beth under wings. She should be leading the way. But beth being extroverted and all the other things I mentioned above, it was bound to happen that beth would take Abby's ministry under her wings.
People hurt others all the time. Sometimes they well know what they did, but pretend not to and sometimes other peoples feelings are just not important to them, and sometimes it happens unintentionally and they really are not aware that they hurt someone.
A mother may hire a nanny to care her kids because she's too tired and stressed from work to give her kids the attention they need. What eventually happens is that the kids become attached to nanny. If the kids got out of line it was also the nanny who got them to behave. Mom is well pleased. The nanny is following instructions and doing a great job, and she takes care of the kids as her own.
The trouble then erupts when the kids may not see their mom as an authority figure in the home. They back talk to her and are unruly and she cant get them under control like the nanny would.
If the nanny is a thoughtful woman she would scold them like: thats your mom, you need to do as she says.
But the nanny may not be too concerned. She just loves the kids and is doing her job and as long as they behave well with her, then thats that.
After awhile the nanny will be in need of forgiveness for taking the kids love and respect away from their mom.
And there are also the people who like to place blame. They dont take responsibilty for anything. They may leave their home late and decides to speed to work. When the officer stops them to gives them a speeding ticket, that makes them even more late. So the officer is evil and needs forgiveness. But in reality the officer is only doing their job.
But as for myself, if someone decides to forgive me, eventhough Ive done nothing wrong. Im not sure how i would respond, but I guess i would think they may have some internal issues going on. But I would also try to see it from their perspective to see if I did something unawares. And in that case, I would say sorry and thank them for being gracious.
On the matter of forgiveness. Sometimes we think our unforgiveness is hurting the other person. Actually its hurting us more. We need to let that thang go!(Im speaking here for myself also)
Some time ago someone was saying how this person who he had fallen out with a while back, and who had stopped talking to him suddenly sent him a message to say he had been forgiven. Oh boy was he angered by that 🤨
According to him, he had already been forgiven by God and he has moved on from that situation a long time ago, and he doesnt need the persons forgiveness after so long.
So thats just another perspective there. In the relationships that are important to us we need to try and not let the sun go down on our anger (Ephesians 4:26) lest when the sun comes up again by then we find out that the other person has moved on 🤷🏾♀️
The problem with Abby is that she is an introvert. Had Abby been assertive that situation would not have happened. Its her ministry, she is an older woman who took Beth under wings. She should be leading the way. But beth being extroverted and all the other things I mentioned above, it was bound to happen that beth would take Abby's ministry under her wings.
People hurt others all the time. Sometimes they well know what they did, but pretend not to and sometimes other peoples feelings are just not important to them, and sometimes it happens unintentionally and they really are not aware that they hurt someone.
A mother may hire a nanny to care her kids because she's too tired and stressed from work to give her kids the attention they need. What eventually happens is that the kids become attached to nanny. If the kids got out of line it was also the nanny who got them to behave. Mom is well pleased. The nanny is following instructions and doing a great job, and she takes care of the kids as her own.
The trouble then erupts when the kids may not see their mom as an authority figure in the home. They back talk to her and are unruly and she cant get them under control like the nanny would.
If the nanny is a thoughtful woman she would scold them like: thats your mom, you need to do as she says.
But the nanny may not be too concerned. She just loves the kids and is doing her job and as long as they behave well with her, then thats that.
After awhile the nanny will be in need of forgiveness for taking the kids love and respect away from their mom.
And there are also the people who like to place blame. They dont take responsibilty for anything. They may leave their home late and decides to speed to work. When the officer stops them to gives them a speeding ticket, that makes them even more late. So the officer is evil and needs forgiveness. But in reality the officer is only doing their job.
But as for myself, if someone decides to forgive me, eventhough Ive done nothing wrong. Im not sure how i would respond, but I guess i would think they may have some internal issues going on. But I would also try to see it from their perspective to see if I did something unawares. And in that case, I would say sorry and thank them for being gracious.
On the matter of forgiveness. Sometimes we think our unforgiveness is hurting the other person. Actually its hurting us more. We need to let that thang go!(Im speaking here for myself also)
Some time ago someone was saying how this person who he had fallen out with a while back, and who had stopped talking to him suddenly sent him a message to say he had been forgiven. Oh boy was he angered by that 🤨
According to him, he had already been forgiven by God and he has moved on from that situation a long time ago, and he doesnt need the persons forgiveness after so long.
So thats just another perspective there. In the relationships that are important to us we need to try and not let the sun go down on our anger (Ephesians 4:26) lest when the sun comes up again by then we find out that the other person has moved on 🤷🏾♀️
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interesting
I dont know about the extrovert, introvert thing, as people can be one or the other and neither is bad but you cant expect an innie to be an outtie and vice versa. As its not in their nature.
Maybe there is delayed forgiveness and people just forgot they did something that hurt someone else. It might be something minor but to someone else its major.
I have workmate that is often under stress about things and takes it out on others, as sometimes we unwittingly add to his stress but we dont know because we actually dont know everything hes going through in private. He will apologise if hes grumpy though.
When he did tell us (me and my mate who work together) it was stuff in his own life like, his son is on drugs, his parents died, or he wasnt able to get through the backlog of work because of all this other stuff thats going on that are really nothing to do with us. But once he shared or confessed that with us we can be more understanding and forgiving.
I dont know about the extrovert, introvert thing, as people can be one or the other and neither is bad but you cant expect an innie to be an outtie and vice versa. As its not in their nature.
Maybe there is delayed forgiveness and people just forgot they did something that hurt someone else. It might be something minor but to someone else its major.
I have workmate that is often under stress about things and takes it out on others, as sometimes we unwittingly add to his stress but we dont know because we actually dont know everything hes going through in private. He will apologise if hes grumpy though.
When he did tell us (me and my mate who work together) it was stuff in his own life like, his son is on drugs, his parents died, or he wasnt able to get through the backlog of work because of all this other stuff thats going on that are really nothing to do with us. But once he shared or confessed that with us we can be more understanding and forgiving.
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Real, real vulnerable moment: I've been abused.
And that abuse was, and still IS, swept under the rug.
And, still forgave because holding onto it was torturing me. Forgiving someone unlocks their cage taht you have put them in, but also releases you from your cage that you unintentionally locked yourself in.
William Young, in the book The Shack, talks about forgiveness perfectly:
"“Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......”
And that abuse was, and still IS, swept under the rug.
And, still forgave because holding onto it was torturing me. Forgiving someone unlocks their cage taht you have put them in, but also releases you from your cage that you unintentionally locked yourself in.
William Young, in the book The Shack, talks about forgiveness perfectly:
"“Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......”
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I had a guy literally yesterday blame me and a bunch of other people in our group for his anger.
Someone made a minor mistake about something so this guy feels the need to respond to it by crucifying the guy and making the entire group responsible and the source of his anger.
So we move into today and he shows up and this time hes getting into it with someone else. When he makes mistakes people are on him with the same fierceness if not more so than what he projects to others.
As for forgiving him, im not mad at him because i understand how the cycle works, so instead of continuing it when he does screw up i remind him that he is allowed to make mistakes instead of going off on him like he does with other people. He is so used to criticizing people so he expects it for himself because that's usually what he gets, and i have seen him get it back countless times. The moment he does anything stupid people are on him quick, almost as though they have been waiting to get at him.
Now this is not a Christian group or anything so he probably doesn't know anything about Matthew 7:2 "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
Seeing him getting into it with other people and being bashed today almost made me say "thank you" to him for vindicating me and proving what Matthew 7:2 says. Often times a persons issue with us isn't even about us, it's about them being trapped in a cycle of their own judgments that they are both subjecting people to and being subjected to themselves.
The understanding in short is, you forgive others so that you can have forgiveness upon yourself.
If the person you're forgiving has no knowledge of what they did i don't see the point in broadcasting their mistake. Rather it makes more sense just to keep it chill and let it slide, there is no need to bait for an apology or using it to try to make a person feel guilty.
Someone made a minor mistake about something so this guy feels the need to respond to it by crucifying the guy and making the entire group responsible and the source of his anger.
So we move into today and he shows up and this time hes getting into it with someone else. When he makes mistakes people are on him with the same fierceness if not more so than what he projects to others.
As for forgiving him, im not mad at him because i understand how the cycle works, so instead of continuing it when he does screw up i remind him that he is allowed to make mistakes instead of going off on him like he does with other people. He is so used to criticizing people so he expects it for himself because that's usually what he gets, and i have seen him get it back countless times. The moment he does anything stupid people are on him quick, almost as though they have been waiting to get at him.
Now this is not a Christian group or anything so he probably doesn't know anything about Matthew 7:2 "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
Seeing him getting into it with other people and being bashed today almost made me say "thank you" to him for vindicating me and proving what Matthew 7:2 says. Often times a persons issue with us isn't even about us, it's about them being trapped in a cycle of their own judgments that they are both subjecting people to and being subjected to themselves.
The understanding in short is, you forgive others so that you can have forgiveness upon yourself.
If the person you're forgiving has no knowledge of what they did i don't see the point in broadcasting their mistake. Rather it makes more sense just to keep it chill and let it slide, there is no need to bait for an apology or using it to try to make a person feel guilty.
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yep
I started a new thread called the guilt trip as I was thinking seouls post was kinda about that.
When you say its about baiting people to try and get them to do what you want, I think thats how a guilt trip is used.
I dont know why people do it though, my hunch is they want to feel superior to you if they can make you feel really bad and crummy about something you didnt even know you were supposed to do for them.
I started a new thread called the guilt trip as I was thinking seouls post was kinda about that.
When you say its about baiting people to try and get them to do what you want, I think thats how a guilt trip is used.
I dont know why people do it though, my hunch is they want to feel superior to you if they can make you feel really bad and crummy about something you didnt even know you were supposed to do for them.
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