How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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["blindness / a hardening... UNTIL"... and several other "UNTIL" passages... dealing with the "chronology" issues regarding this matter]
And they are the first Christians. Jesus tells them about what Christians will face in the future. There is no getting around this. The GT is persecution of Christians from satan.
My view does not require that they understand (at that point) that He will die (etc).
You may recall my pointing out that their QUESTION of Him in Matthew 24:3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (regarding "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" [the one they were standing in and speaking out from]... when the angels will "REAP"... which they understood [correctly] would immediately precede "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come" which He'd addressed in the previous chapter and they correctly understood as being defined as the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, they were promised); What they did NOT understand was its "TIMING" issues (especially as in relation to what other things... Hence their question of Him in Acts 1 about its "TIMING")
Afterwards(after Jesus DBR) though when Jesus appeared to them and they thought he was a spirit did they understand it then? Or the women who went to his tomb and thought the gardener had moved hid body as if they thought he was still dead? Thomas who said he wouldn't believe without putting his fingers in the nail holes and the hole from the spear in his side,,,,does it seem as if any of theses disciples were expecting Jesus to die, then be raised,,,ascend to heaven and then return in an second coming?
That's where you are half right! The entire purpose the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ.
God uses the rest of the world to make this possible, and in the process deals with the sin of all men.
The focus is on Israel! He promised faithful Abraham many things to be given to his seed in Christ, and God will make that promise good!
To simplify my response, bullet points
:-- I see Scripture showing only ONE PERSON grasped His "resurrection"... where it says (in John 20:8, at the empty sepulcre), "...and HE SAW [the linen cloths, v.7] AND BELIEVED." (Note: this was not stated of Peter who was there in this scene, but ONLY of that other disciple [in this scene], which I do not agree with "tradition" identifying this person as "John"... I believe it was someone else [and yes, I am familiar with all the arguments regarding this person, "the disciple whom Jesus loved"]);
-- By the time of Peter's words to "ye men of Israel" in Acts 3 (as I pointed out this in one of those other posts), Peter knows enough to say (in v.21), "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the OT prophecies via OT prophets, many of which are yet to be fulfilled, and much concerning "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth (at the Rev19 point in time)]; Well, in those "40 days" that He was seen of them, following His "resurrection" (and following ALSO His FIRST ascension ON FIRSTFRUIT / His resurrection day, Jn20:17 said to Mary Magdalene), He spent it "speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"... but they still (at that point... at the point when He's getting ready to GO UP again, this time "VISIBLY") still are asking Him regarding its "TIMING"
Now, having said all this... what are you saying is the problem with them "understanding or not understanding" at certain points in the story, regarding His "going away" for a length of time?? I'm not connecting what the issue is you are attempting to point out, exactly. Like I said, by the time of Acts 3 (per Peter's words), he grasps at least a little that it will be an "UNTIL" amount of time [before certain other things commence to unfold in the scheme of things]... but what does it matter whether he grasps exactly what kind of time range this will last?? I'm not sure why this matters (according to what you are endeavoring to convey)... it doesn't affect what I've been saying / my viewpoint, from what I can see.
Yes! That is a great portion of its purpose. Correct!
And in addition to that, one purpose of "our Rapture" is as an impetus to Israel to come to faith in their Messiah (Jesus Christ)!
...oops, I should have added one more "bullet point" (of clarification to an earlier post, and will perhaps aid you [ @iamsoandso ] in grasping my explanation):
-- "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (that they were standing in and speaking out from [and ASKING Him regarding, in Matt24:3], and which will immediately precede "the AGE [SINGULAR] TO COME [i.e. the MK age]) is NOT THE SAME THING as "this present age [singular]" that WE ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") are standing in and speaking out from
(This concerns the "CHRONOLOGY" issues, having been covered in past posts)
To simplify my response, bullet points
-- I see Scripture showing only ONE PERSON grasped His "resurrection"... where it says (in John 20:8, at the empty sepulcre), "...and HE SAW [the linen cloths, v.7] AND BELIEVED." (Note: this was not stated of Peter who was there in this scene, but ONLY of that other disciple [in this scene], which I do not agree with "tradition" identifying this person as "John"... I believe it was someone else [and yes, I am familiar with all the arguments regarding this person, "the disciple whom Jesus loved"]);
-- By the time of Peter's words to "ye men of Israel" in Acts 3 (as I pointed out this in one of those other posts), Peter knows enough to say (in v.21), "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the OT prophecies via OT prophets, many of which are yet to be fulfilled, and much concerning "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth (at the Rev19 point in time)]; Well, in those "40 days" that He was seen of them, following His "resurrection" (and following ALSO His FIRST ascension ON FIRSTFRUIT / His resurrection day, Jn20:17 said to Mary Magdalene), He spent it "speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"... but they still (at that point... at the point when He's getting ready to GO UP again, this time "VISIBLY") still are asking Him regarding its "TIMING"
Now, having said all this... what are you saying is the problem with them "understanding or not understanding" at certain points in the story, regarding His "going away" for a length of time?? I'm not connecting what the issue is you are attempting to point out, exactly. Like I said, by the time of Acts 3 (per Peter's words), he grasps at least a little that it will be an "UNTIL" amount of time [before certain other things commence to unfold in the scheme of things]... but what does it matter whether he grasps exactly what kind of time range this will last?? I'm not sure why this matters (according to what you are endeavoring to convey)... it doesn't affect what I've been saying / my viewpoint, from what I can see.
Yes I agree with the points you gave in Scriptures regarding when they began to believe/understand afterwards(after the DBR)....
In post #4233 you said you pretty much agree with "and the sign of thy coming" do you think they were asking about the "sign of his second coming" or about the "sign of thy coming" meaning the only one they understood at that time where the Messiah would come,,then throw off the gentile rule(Rome) over them(times of the gentiles) and they thought he would be ruling the world from the Temple he just said would be destroyed?
you said: This is theology 101<Really? I never heard it taught at any church I ever attended.
"he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”--Isaiah 49:6
"They are not all Israel that are of Israel"--Romans 9:6
"There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.:--Galatians 3:28
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."--John 12:32
Who was the first person Christ revealed himself to as the Messiah?
"The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)--John 4:9
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."--John 4:23
"The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”--John 4:25-26
There are just way too many verses to list here that would prove otherwise.
"For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation."--2nd Corinthians 6:2
He Comes and then the Judgment--there is NO Second Chances--that is another reason it is called the second death.
Ummm......... You just missed 1000 years in there.
Christ is ruling and reigning now--1000 years is ALWAYS and without exception a symbolic number in scripture--look it up. In Revelation it is most definitely figurative and signifies a long length of time--Satan is also bound symbolically for 1000 years-he was bound at the cross--does he still have influence over mankind--yes he does, but he has no power over death because Christ died for all--people need only to repent and believe and receive eternal life--Satan is bound in that he is powerless to do anything about that.
To not believe that Christ defeated sin and death at the cross and is reigning now on earth thru believers and in heaven is to deny that He is both Christ and King.
If I'm grasping the issue you are getting at (I could be mistaken on your intentions), this pertains to the way in which scholars USE the term "imminence" (concerning "rapture-timing")...
...which a lot of ppl do not "get" the way in which many scholars USE this term... They do not use it in the sense of "the rapture can happen AT ANY TIME," but rather, that ALL [biblically-defined] "SIGNS" take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [i.e. within the 7-yr Tribulation Period] (nothing one can look at around us that POINTS TO "our Rapture" event/date)... ALL of the "SIGNS" FOLLOW our Rapture, and are what will "point toward" and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (at the Rev19 point in the chronology), in which, "EVERY EYE" shall see Him (i.e. "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" 2Th2:8b, in contrast to what 2Th2:1 is speaking of ["OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (which will be "IN THE AIR"... "the MEETING [NOUN] of the Lord IN THE AIR]--and us ONLY ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'], at that point--"our Rapture" point in time].)
So, ARE YOU addressing the issue of "imminence" (as it pertains to "our Rapture")?? Or am I completely missing the essense of your posts here?
It seems you've jumped in at the end of the debate--it's like coming into a court case after most of the evidence has been presented.
You have to see the rest of the posts to understand--and not jump in the middle of a discussion where both people know what is going on. There are those that believe Christ will STAY on the earth at the second coming and the Jews and other will have a second chance at salvation--and there are others like myself that believe what scripture says--Christ came once to die and then the judgment--so of course no second chance after that because immediately after that all the wicked and unbelievers are destroyed along with the heavens and earth!
Looks like this needs to go to Absolutely? --confused.