How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

Those were the Two Witnesses who are on special assigment from the Lord - just as we see in OT - Enoch and Elijah being 'taken' before death. God has a plan for these two faithful ones.

But the "2W" still DIE and are seen resurrected from the dead in 11:11, right??



I would put forth that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]) is also "on special assignment"

"THIS corruptible" ("the DEAD *IN* Christ") and "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE" component of the [same] "ONE BODY" who are ALSO "*IN* Christ"--where the phrase "IN CHRIST / IN HIM" is a wholly NT designation... "having been created IN CHRIST Jesus" [i.e. an ALTOGETHER *NEW* creation!])

The Lord raised Lazarus before His death and resurrection - special assignment.

And "Lazarus" himself being a "TYPE" of someone else...

When the Lord was resurrected, others were resurrected with Him to fulfill Prophecy.
Your dead shall live;
Together with [my dead body they shall arise. Isaiah 27:19

This passage (in CONTEXT) referring to ISRAEL and LIKENING THIS UNTO "a resurrection" JUST LIKE: Rom11:15[25]; Ezek37:12-14,21-23; Hos5:14-6:3; Dan12:1-3 [distinct from v.13!]; Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40!]; etc etc...

...IOW, NOT a "bodily / physical resurrection from being formerly bodily / physically dead"... rather, Israel "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" [or, "sow[n] unto the earth"]


Isaiah 27:19 HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE! (it necessarily takes place AFTER what is referred to in Lk21:24a! "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS")

See again Hosea 5:14-6:3 (same idea!)

When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

A PREVIEW of His Second Coming to the earth, when all OT SAINTS will be resurrected (per Dan12:13; per Job19:25-27; per Martha's words in Jn11:24... which ALL OT saints WELL-KNEW of! It was NO "MYSTERY"!!)

Revelation is a special revealing that can only be deciphered by the Holy Spirit and Scripture which it was built upon.

I continue to point out scriptures which "connect" with it, which many ppl disregard.

Your pre-trib error will never get it right because it changes Scripture and meanings and Order.

No. What I've pointed out does not change "scripture" and "meanings" and "Order"

(... for example, you've fallen for the flawed "moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD=moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" fable, thus have become confused on the CHRONOLOGY of Revelation, blurring together items which are DISTINCT... and thus MISSING the ACTUAL "chronology" of it!)

 

[DavidTree]

But the "2W" still DIE and are seen resurrected from the dead in 11:11, right??
I would put forth that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]) is also "on special assignment"
"THIS corruptible" ("the DEAD *IN* Christ") and "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE" component of the [same] "ONE BODY" who are ALSO "*IN* Christ"--where the phrase "IN CHRIST / IN HIM" is a wholly NT designation... "having been created IN CHRIST Jesus" [i.e. an ALTOGETHER *NEW* creation!])
And "Lazarus" himself being a "TYPE" of someone else...
This passage (in CONTEXT) referring to ISRAEL and LIKENING THIS UNTO "a resurrection" JUST LIKE: Rom11:15[25]; Ezek37:12-14,21-23; Hos5:14-6:3; Dan12:1-3 [distinct from v.13!]; Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40!]; etc etc...
...IOW, NOT a "bodily / physical resurrection from being formerly bodily / physically dead"... rather, Israel "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" [or, "sow[n] unto the earth"]
Isaiah 27:19 HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE! (it necessarily takes place AFTER what is referred to in Lk21:24a! "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS")
See again Hosea 5:14-6:3 (same idea!)
A PREVIEW of His Second Coming to the earth, when all OT SAINTS will be resurrected (per Dan12:13; per Job19:25-27; per Martha's words in Jn11:24... which ALL OT saints WELL-KNEW of! It was NO "MYSTERY"!!)
I continue to point out scriptures which "connect" with it, which many ppl disregard.
No. What I've pointed out does not change "scripture" and "meanings" and "Order"
(... fo example, you've fallen for the flawed "moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD=moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" fable, thus have become confused on the CHRONOLOGY of Revelation, blurring together items which are DISTINCT... and thus MISSING the ACTUAL "chronology" of it!)

my bad - should be Isaiah 26:19 and it indeed took place just as we see in Matthew 27:50-53
And it will be finalized with His Coming

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This passage (in CONTEXT) referring to ISRAEL and LIKENING THIS UNTO "a resurrection" JUST LIKE: Rom11:15[25]; Ezek37:12-14,21-23; Hos5:14-6:3; Dan12:1-3 [distinct from v.13!]; Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40!]; etc etc... // ...IOW, NOT a "bodily / physical resurrection from being formerly bodily / physically dead"... rather, Israel "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" [or, "sow[n] unto the earth"]
Isaiah 27 26:19 HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE! (it necessarily takes place AFTER what is referred to in Lk21:24a! "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS")

See again Hosea 5:14-6:3 (same idea!)

my bad - should be Isaiah 26:19

EDITING to correct MY POST ALSO... Coz that's the verse I ALSO MEANT! LOL

 

[DavidTree]

EDITING to correct MY POST ALSO... Coz that's the verse I ALSO MEANT! LOL

Come, let us return to the LORD.
For He has torn us to pieces,
but He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
but He will bind up our wounds.
After two days He will revive us;
on the third day He will raise us up,
that we may live in His presence.

This is beautiful and was fulfilled in His resurrection and in the lives of the Disciples and to us who believe.
It will also be fulfilled again when He Returns and revives the earthly nation Israel.

There are Two Israels, there are Two Jerusalems

For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.b 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise.

24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have never travailed;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time, however, the son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[preceded with Hosea 5:14-15 ALSO! (CONTEXT!)]


14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

[that is, from the perspective of HIS RESURRECTION / ASCENSION point in time!!]

Then the following chpt 6 goes FROM THERE...

Come, let us return to the LORD.
For He has torn us to pieces,
but He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
but He will bind up our wounds.

After two days He will revive us;
on the third day He will raise us up,
that we may live in His presence.

"after TWO DAYS" from the point in time of His ASCENSION ("I" will "GO AWAY")

"and IN THE THIRD DAY" from the point in time of His ASCENSION





(NOT speaking to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"!!)

 

[DavidTree]

[preceded with Hosea 5:14-15 ALSO! (CONTEXT!)]

14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

[that is, from the perspective of HIS RESURRECTION / ASCENSION point in time!!]

Then the following chpt 6 goes FROM THERE...

"after TWO DAYS" from the point in time of His ASCENSION ("I will GO AWAY")

"and IN THE THIRD DAY" from the point in time of His ASCENSION

"in their affliction" is key

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

The Lord was done speaking to Israel at this point.

It was all about His Bride/His Church from the very beginning.

His ministry was to His own first but also to those who would believe on Him/His Name.

But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
“Yes, Lord,” she said, “even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
“O woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Then some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after engaging these men in sharp debate, Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, recounting the conversion of the Gentiles and bringing great joy to all the brothers. On their arrival in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and apostles and elders, to whom they reported all that God had done through them.

 

[DavidTree]

[preceded with Hosea 5:14-15 ALSO! (CONTEXT!)]


14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

[that is, from the perspective of HIS RESURRECTION / ASCENSION point in time!!]

Then the following chpt 6 goes FROM THERE...



"after TWO DAYS" from the point in time of His ASCENSION ("I" will "GO AWAY")

"and IN THE THIRD DAY" from the point in time of His ASCENSION





(NOT speaking to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"!!)

You forget that the very first members of His Body/His Bride were representatives of the nation Israel so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

To the Jew first but also to the Gentile

 

[DavidTree]

on the third day He will raise us up,
that we may live in His presence.
This is going on right now in His Bride, who we are.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Do you know what this means - raised us up and seated us with Him

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@DavidTree , you are pulling 6:1-3 OUT OF ITS CONTEXT (which INCLUDES what He'd just said in vv.14-15 of chpt 5!! about "TEAR" and "GO AWAY" [from His ASCENSION point in time!])... b/c 6:1-3 speaks of "HAS TORN" (referring to the "US" [HATH TORN US] of THIS CONTEXT)...

...that AIN'T "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]<--do you even examine these references I supply again and again?)

 

[DavidTree]

@DavidTree , you are pulling 6:1-3 OUT OF ITS CONTEXT (which INCLUDES what He'd just said in vv.14-15 of chpt 5!! about "TEAR" and "GO AWAY")... b/c 6:1-3 speaks of "HAS TORN"

There are Two Israels - the Promised Seed and the flesh

Prophecy was fulfilled and will be fulifilled - study the NT writings and you will better understand OT Prophecy.

on the third day He will raise us up,
that we may live in His presence.
This is going on right now in His Bride, who we are.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Do you know what this means - raised us up and seated us with Him

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@DavidTree , you are GLOSSING OVER the CONTEXT:

@DavidTree , you are pulling 6:1-3 OUT OF ITS CONTEXT (which INCLUDES what He'd just said in vv.14-15 of chpt 5!! about "[WILL] TEAR" and "GO AWAY" [from His ASCENSION point in time!])... b/c 6:1-3 speaks of "HAS TORN" (referring to the "US" [HATH TORN US] of THIS CONTEXT)...

...that ^ AIN'T "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]<--do you even examine these references I supply again and again?)

[or are you a part of the "head-less" body proponents?? My suggestion: study the CHRONOLOGY of what takes place WHEN]

 

[DavidTree]

@DavidTree , you are GLOSSING OVER the CONTEXT:

[or are you a part of the "head-less" body proponents?? My suggestion: study the CHRONOLOGY]

i understand when it speaks to Israel of the flesh and when it speaks to Israel of the SPIRIT = His Bride/His Church

When Christ chose the Disciples and saved them He saved the nation that rejected Him - through them.

It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out His sentence on the earth
thoroughly and decisively.”

It is just as Isaiah foretold:
“Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have resembled Gomorrah.

And when His Second Coming occurs He will revive the One Third of the earthly nation when He brings them through the Fire.

Then they will cry out to Him whom they pierced and say "Blesses is HE who comes in the name of LORD".

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And when His Second Coming occurs He will revive the One Third of the earthly nation when He brings them through the Fire.

Are you saying after He RETURNS (i.e. His Second Coming) THEN He will "revive" them? (it sounds as though you're saying, from your viewpoint, that they'll "come to faith in Christ" AFTER His "RETURN" [??]... but scripture everywhere [and especially in the gospels and in His Olivet Discourse] are saying otherwise: that at THAT point it would be TOO LATE!)

Then they will cry out to Him whom they pierced and say "Blesses is HE who comes in the name of LORD".

I don't believe that the ones who the text says shall "MOURN" are the ones who will have said the "BLESSED IS HE WHO" thing (as in, not the identical persons doing / saying each of these).

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’

... the one thing must precede the other, see...







[as I've mentioned in past posts, it will be the believing remnant of Israel in the trib yrs (having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture") who will be the ones DOING the "INVITING TO" the "wedding FEAST / SUPPER" / earthly MK age... (Mt25:40,45 calling them "the least of these My brethren," who are NOT the ones BEING judged / separated in the "Sheep" and "goat" judgment of "the nations [plural]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, per Matt25:31-34]

 

[DavidTree]

Are you saying after He RETURNS (i.e. His Second Coming) THEN He will "revive" them? (it sounds as though you're saying, from your viewpoint, that they'll "come to faith in Christ" AFTER His "RETURN" [??]... but scripture everywhere [and especially in the gospels and in His Olivet Discourse] are saying otherwise: that at THAT point it would be TOO LATE!)



I don't believe that the ones who the text says shall "MOURN" are the ones who will have said the "BLESSED IS HE WHO" thing (as in, not the identical persons doing / saying each of these).


... the one thing must precede the other, see...







[as I've mentioned in past posts, it will be the believing remnant of Israel in the trib yrs (having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture") who will be the ones DOING the "INVITING TO" the "wedding FEAST / SUPPER" / earthly MK age... (Mt25:40,45 calling them "the least of these My brethren," who are NOT the ones BEING judged / separated in the "Sheep" and "goat" judgment of "the nations [plural]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, per Matt25:31-34]

Yep, that's why i posted it - at His Coming - the Resurrection and the Restoration

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yep, that's why i posted it - at His Coming - the Resurrection and the Restoration

What you are saying here ^ did not really address my question to you.

 

[DavidTree]

What you are saying here ^ did not really address my question to you.

Post 1332 answers your question as does Acts ch1

So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

 

[cv5]

i understand when it speaks to Israel of the flesh and when it speaks to Israel of the SPIRIT = His Bride/His Church

When Christ chose the Disciples and saved them He saved the nation that rejected Him - through them.

It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out His sentence on the earth
thoroughly and decisively.”

It is just as Isaiah foretold:
“Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have resembled Gomorrah.

And when His Second Coming occurs He will revive the One Third of the earthly nation when He brings them through the Fire.

Then they will cry out to Him whom they pierced and say "Blesses is HE who comes in the name of LORD".

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’

You might want to look in the dictionary for the term "inchoate". You might also want to try "disconsonant" and "incongruous" while you are at it......

 

[cv5]

I call that muddying the waters with micro-analysis.

Unerring impeccable resolute deft and knowledgeable precision in expounding the Scriptures is not the problem.

It's the remedy.....dispelling ignorance, sloppiness, silliness and outright obstinacy. For those with ears to hear that is......

Come on folks.......lend TDW an ear. If you are wise you will lend him both. He has got you all beat by a country mile......

 

[DavidTree]

You might want to look in the dictionary for the term "inchoate". You might also want to try "disconsonant" and "incongruous" while you are at it......

lol - you might want to study the New Covenant and not add to or take away from God's words as you did with 2 Thess ch 2.

You do not understand all that was said and took place here:

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon.”

But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

“Yes, Lord,” she said, “even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

“O woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

 

[de-emerald]

lol - you might want to study the New Covenant and not add to or take away from God's words as you did with 2 Thess ch 2.

You do not understand all that was said and took place here:

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon.”

But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

“Yes, Lord,” she said, “even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

“O woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

i personaly dont like the way in which this scripture is translated,,, because one could think if the lady had not answered correctly Jesus may not have removed the demon,,, but i know thats not true..