How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

saved and delivered from the wrath to come because

And I think this is one of the main points of difference in the various rapture-timing viewpoints ^ .

Just WHEN is "the WRATH COMING" to come / be here / arrive?

And does it refer to "GOD'S" wrath exclusively, or can it pertain also to the "wrath" mentioned, say, in Rev12:12, which commences at the MID-trib point (per vv.6,14 and parallel other passages speaking of the same "time-stamps" so to speak)? And/or others noted elsewhere...

 

[CS1]

What are you disagreeing with - that satan persecutes His Church ???

Jesus said:
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matt 24:9

LOL, satan persecutes his church? or are you thinking there is no person(s) saved after those in the rapture are gone? FYI we are hated already today. Just as Noah was and the Jews Yet God saved them did HE not?

 

[CS1]

And I think this is one of the main points of difference in the various rapture-timing viewpoints ^ .

Just WHEN is "the WRATH COMING" to come / be here / arrive?

And does it refer to "GOD'S" wrath exclusively, or can it pertain also to the "wrath" mentioned, say, in Rev12:12, which commences at the MID-trib point (per vv.6,14 and parallel other passages speaking of the same "time-stamps" so to speak)? And/or others noted elsewhere...

yes through the how bible when God brought Judgment he first send HIS word as we see HIS Prophets, then HE get HIS People ready

as HE did Noah built the Ark,

Moses Lead the people
Elijah stood against false prophets
Then God delivered them from the judgement HE was spring out on the earth

the Ark,
Lotts called out of the city Judgment could not start until Lott was out of Sodom.

The normative in Well seen in the BIBLE.

Send the Word, prepare for the coming One and receive deliverance it is a Normative with God HIS name is Savoir , Deliverer, Healer,

 

[DavidTree]

And I think this is one of the main points of difference in the various rapture-timing viewpoints ^ .

Just WHEN is "the WRATH COMING" to come / be here / arrive?

And does it refer to "GOD'S" wrath exclusively, or can it pertain also to the "wrath" mentioned, say, in Rev12:12, which commences at the MID-trib point (per vv.6,14 and parallel other passages speaking of the same "time-stamps" so to speak)? And/or others noted elsewhere...

Let us break bread together - we can do this together in Him - Amen
Let us, together bow our hearts, wills and knees before Him - together before His Word.
Scripture cannot lie - We have protection in Him if we 'do not add to or subtract from His words' - Amen
Let us not be like the "Pharisees who swallow a camel and choke on a gnat"

In Scripture, there often is different word usage to mean and say the same thing - Jesus did this with parables as well.

Do you not realize that if i am wrong - i win and if i am right, you win.....this is how His love operates in us who believe/trust Him.

 

[DavidTree]

LOL, satan persecutes his church? or are you thinking there is no person(s) saved after those in the rapture are gone? FYI we are hated already today. Just as Noah was and the Jews Yet God saved them did HE not?

YES, He did dear brother. It was not satan who was in control of the Flood - but God. And what did God do for us in that Flood?

He told Noah (and us) how to prepare for coming Judgement upon the world - build the Ark.
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.…

God waited patiently until Noah was safe in the Ark - not from the corruption in the world at that time, but from God's Wrath.
BEFORE Noah built the Ark, he was ALREADY in the Truth of God's Word and PROTECTED from the sin in the world.

By preserving Noah, God continued His Promise of a Savior to be born of a virgin - Immanuel = God with us.

 

[CS1]

YES, He did dear brother. It was not satan who was in control of the Flood - but God. And what did God do for us in that Flood?

He told Noah (and us) how to prepare for coming Judgement upon the world - build the Ark.
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.…

God waited patiently until Noah was safe in the Ark - not from the corruption in the world at that time, but from God's Wrath.
BEFORE Noah built the Ark, he was ALREADY in the Truth of God's Word and PROTECTED from the sin in the world.

By preserving Noah, God continued His Promise of a Savior to be born of a virgin - Immanuel = God with us.

amen YES God brought the flood and salvation in HIS Judgement

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In Scripture, there often is different word usage to mean and say the same thing - Jesus did this with parables as well.

I agree with that.

I've already stated in past posts that Paul refers to "our RAPTURE" event something like 8-10 TIMES, using VARIOUS terms and phrases, in his two Thessalonians epistles (and not merely the "G726 - harpazo" word found in ONE verse, the one most-commonly acknowledged: 1Th4:17).


But that wasn't my point.



Notice that I said, even the "IDEA" [/"meaning"] being expressed by those two distinct words we were discussing:

--"ascend [G305]" (Rev11:12--In THESE kinds of passages, using this word)

[is not the SAME IDEA as]

--"SNATCH [G726]" (1Th4:17; "Rapture / Caught up / harpazo")

 

[BryanPaul]

Hi, I'm in the UK. Although the pretrib thing allegedlly started here, it seems to have stuck mainly in the US.
Largely because it is marketed very well on telly and it appeals to a comfortable church.
It isn't taught outside the Western church apart from some small pockets where missionaries have introduced it.

These are all doctrines of men. The pretrib provoked the need for other doctrines in an attempt to correct the pretrib error.
No one teaches that the saints are subject to the wrath of God.

The bible teaches of the 2nd coming of Jesus in glory and the resurrection event that occurs at that time. Clearly stated.
The pretrib position has done it's best to confuse the church by framing the transformation of the living as though it were
something wholly separate from the resurrection. The Biblical position is that we are ALL resurrected.
The dead receive their immortal bodies first then the still living are changed together with them. 1Thess 4:13-18

Pretrib doctrine is focussed on SELF and is largely concerned with entitlements of a divided "church".
The Bible is focussed on Jesus and his revelation to all mankind. God's taking of the earth is woven deep into prophecy.
It didn't just begin with the New Testament. Most of the detail of Jesus' return is found in the OT.

I find too much study of all the conflicting positions on timing of "rapture" can distract from actual Bible study.
If you aren't careful, you can end up well grounded in a lot of various religious doctrine and still have little
understanding of prophecy.

Thanks, that's really good reply. If you don't mind me asking; what denomination are you, or were you raised with, because it sounds very similar to what i heard in Anglican church and school ? Although there are some differences (i think) eg. i seem to remember being taught about the Ascension of the Saints meaning us believers, and that different parts of the Bible (although all the teachings are valuable) is written for different people in different times, such as Revelation being written with a more OT mindset more for Jews and not something we need to worry about too much. That's why in an earlier post i said i think i may have been taught some kind of "pre-trib" although it wasn't called that. I don't want to get too bogged down in all this, just trying to figure out if what i was taught (or my understanding of what i was taught) is scriptural or not but, as you kind of implied, reading right through the NT again is probably the best way to go about it.

 

[DavidTree]

I agree with that.

I've already stated in past posts that Paul refers to "our RAPTURE" event something like 8-10 TIMES, using VARIOUS terms and phrases, in his two Thessalonians epistles (and not merely the "G726 - harpazo" word found in ONE verse, the one most-commonly acknowledged: 1Th4:17).


But that wasn't my point.



Notice that I said, even the "IDEA" [/"meaning"] being expressed by those two distinct words we were discussing:

--"ascend [G305]" (Rev11:12--In THESE kinds of passages, using this word)

[is not the SAME IDEA as]

--"SNATCH [G726]" (1Th4:17; "Rapture / Caught up / harpazo")

and this emphasizes my point - they 'Rose UP' First from physical Death and then Ascended UP. - SAME OUTCOME as those Raptured.
To argue over this is like choking on a gnat -

This, again is a magicians trick with words to mesmerize the listener.
The purpose of girating over a word is to miss the overall picture of what is intended by the Lord - Resurrection then Rapture.

Notice i purposely gyrate wrong at first - WHY - because it does not change the meaning in this example, with this word.

If you remove yourself from the foundation of Scripture which has it's own way of building Itself - Proverbs 30: 5-6

Start with 1 Thessalonians which agrees with 2 Thessalonians which agrees with 1 John 2:18 which agrees with the Revelation given to the Apostle of John which agrees with the Gospels which agrees with = one Second Coming = FIRST Resurrection after that, Rapture.

God is not the author of confusion.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Protection from God if we believe His Word
Confusion if we 'add or take away' from His Word.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @DavidTree , let me phrase my original question a different way, so as to get to the bottom of what it is you actually believe about that point (the point I was making):

--since the 2W are resurrected (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," per Rev11:11,12,14,15... do you believe that this point in the chronology (that is, BEFORE the "7th Trumpet" occurs, per vv.14b,15 [and 8:13c]) is when ALL "saints" are "RAPTURED / CAUGHT UP [G726]" (i.e. when the 2W go up... BEFORE the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe")??






[note to the readers: "pre-tribbers" (of which I am one) believe there is ONLY ONE "RAPTURE [G726]" (1Th4:17 uses this word to speak of it) at ONE POINT IN TIME... and that the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" is NOT THAT POINT IN TIME / is NOT "WHEN" it occurs]

 

[Noteworthy]

Make sure you don't do that then. Asking why it's such i hot topic in the US and not the UK is not belittling anyone..There's no suggestion in what i said that i do, so it sounds like that comment came from some kind of inferiority complex.

No, not directed at you at all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where in scripture does it say Two Returns of our Lord?

The return of Christ to earth "with power and great glory" is regarded as the Second Coming of Christ . See Matthew 24 (and related passages). But when Christ comes for His saints (as the divine Bridegroom) He does NOT return to earth at all. Indeed the saints rise from earth supernaturally to meet Him in the air (as pre-figured by Enoch, the seventh from Adam). Big difference. The even bigger difference is the purpose for each event. One is for salvation (its culmination) while the other is for damnation (of those who are enemies of Christ, "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness").

God has revealed that salvation begins with justification by His grace and ends with glorification by His grace also (Romans 8). All the saints must be perfected into the exact image of Christ (1 John 3:1-3) in order to enter Heaven in their immortal, incorruptible, glorified bodies and remain there eternally (see 1 Corinthians 15). Therefore we have the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church (those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and are in the Body of Christ).

 

[DavidTree]

The return of Christ to earth "with power and great glory" is regarded as the Second Coming of Christ . See Matthew 24 (and related passages). But when Christ comes for His saints (as the divine Bridegroom) He does NOT return to earth at all. Indeed the saints rise from earth supernaturally to meet Him in the air (as pre-figured by Enoch, the seventh from Adam). Big difference. The even bigger difference is the purpose for each event. One is for salvation (its culmination) while the other is for damnation (of those who are enemies of Christ, "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness").

God has revealed that salvation begins with justification by His grace and ends with glorification by His grace also (Romans 8). All the saints must be perfected into the exact image of Christ (1 John 3:1-3) in order to enter Heaven in their immortal, incorruptible, glorified bodies and remain there eternally (see 1 Corinthians 15). Therefore we have the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church (those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and are in the Body of Christ).

Peace and Amen to Grace, Salvation and Redemption in Christ - 1 John 3:1-3 and Corinthians 15 and John 17

So you believe in two(2) separate Returns of the Lord, one in the air and later one on the ground(earth) - correct?

 

[DavidTree]

^ @DavidTree , let me phrase my original question a different way, so as to get to the bottom of what it is you actually believe about that point (the point I was making):

--since the 2W are resurrected (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," per Rev11:11,12,14,15... do you believe that this point in the chronology (that is, BEFORE the "7th Trumpet" occurs, per vv.14b,15 [and 8:13c]) is when ALL "saints" are "RAPTURED / CAUGHT UP [G726]" (i.e. when the 2W go up... BEFORE the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe")??






[note to the readers: "pre-tribbers" (of which I am one) believe there is ONLY ONE "RAPTURE [G726]" (1Th4:17 uses this word to speak of it) at ONE POINT IN TIME... and that the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" is NOT THAT POINT IN TIME / is NOT "WHEN" it occurs]

Remember, the Scripture cannot lie, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ RISE First, After that we who are alive and remain will be caught up.....

When do you see the First Resurrection occurring in scripture?

Please post a scripture(s) - no need for latin, greek, arabic, hebrew or other.

The words of the LORD are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times. Psalm 12: 6

Your word is very pure; Therefore Your servant loves it. Psalm 119: 140

Our heavenly Father preserved His word in all languages.

 

[BryanPaul]

Hi, I'm in the UK. Although the pretrib thing allegedlly started here, it seems to have stuck mainly in the US.
Largely because it is marketed very well on telly and it appeals to a comfortable church.
It isn't taught outside the Western church apart from some small pockets where missionaries have introduced it.

These are all doctrines of men. The pretrib provoked the need for other doctrines in an attempt to correct the pretrib error.
No one teaches that the saints are subject to the wrath of God.

The bible teaches of the 2nd coming of Jesus in glory and the resurrection event that occurs at that time. Clearly stated.
The pretrib position has done it's best to confuse the church by framing the transformation of the living as though it were
something wholly separate from the resurrection. The Biblical position is that we are ALL resurrected.
The dead receive their immortal bodies first then the still living are changed together with them. 1Thess 4:13-18

Pretrib doctrine is focussed on SELF and is largely concerned with entitlements of a divided "church".
The Bible is focussed on Jesus and his revelation to all mankind. God's taking of the earth is woven deep into prophecy.
It didn't just begin with the New Testament. Most of the detail of Jesus' return is found in the OT.

I find too much study of all the conflicting positions on timing of "rapture" can distract from actual Bible study.
If you aren't careful, you can end up well grounded in a lot of various religious doctrine and still have little
understanding of prophecy.

Ahh, i've found out something quite interesting, and i'm now thinking that the vicar at my old church must have been heavily influenced by John Nelson Derby who was an Anglican pastor but left:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/people/pastorsandpreachers/john-nelson-darby.html

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

GRACE_ambassador said:
Continued from Previous:

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


A lot of scripture here which can overlap an that is how some interject what it does not say, so i have a question.
Are you saying there are Two Returns of our Lord? If so please give the scripture reference - thank you
Are you saying there are Two Raptures? If so please give the scripture reference - thank you


I have seen scholars give the following scriptures when arguing for a twofold rapture theory. I have read it described as the "overcomers" or the "thief in the night" rapture. This removal occurs after the great tribulation. The Lord comes at an unexpected hour for these "overcomers." They have survived the reign of the antichrist/beast, and not become martyrs. This group is made up of the 144,000 of Israel and other gentiles who have come to know the Lord during great tribulation. The theory states they must be removed from the earth before the prophesied Day of the Lord begins because they are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Matthew 24:36-44
Revelation 14:14-15

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Remember, the Scripture cannot lie, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ RISE First, After that we who are alive and remain will be caught up.....

When do you see the First Resurrection occurring in scripture?

Correct me if I'm missing your point, but I take it you are saying that the 2 Witnesses (who will be killed) are NOT resurrected from the dead ('resurrected' means 'to stand again'--which is what the passage shows them doing) before they GO UP TO HEAVEN....

Is that what you are suggesting, now?

IOW, am I reading you right that you do NOT believe any other "saints" will be "resurrected [and then] raptured/caught up" AT THIS POINT in the chronology, WHEN THE 2W are (which is at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe")?

Am I reading you right?

You believe they (2W) enter Heaven AHEAD of the point in time when all other "saints" will be "resurrected [and then] raptured/caught up"?

When you say "the Resurrection of the dead in Christ RISE First,"... are you saying they come BEFORE this point (when the 2W are resurrected) or AFTER the 2W are resurrected, or are you saying the 2W are not classified with what is called "the dead in Christ," or what??

Or are you saying something different? Please clarify how you're understanding this. Thank you. = )

 

[DavidTree]

Correct me if I'm missing your point, but I take it you are saying that the 2 Witnesses (who will be killed) are NOT resurrected from the dead ('resurrected' means 'to stand again'--which is what the passage shows them doing) before they GO UP TO HEAVEN....

Is that what you are suggesting, now?

IOW, am I reading you right that you do NOT believe any other "saints" will be "resurrected [and then] raptured/caught up" AT THIS POINT in the chronology, WHEN THE 2W are (which is at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe")?

Am I reading you right?

You believe they (2W) enter Heaven AHEAD of the point in time when all other "saints" will be "resurrected [and then] raptured/caught up"?

When you say "the Resurrection of the dead in Christ RISE First,"... are you saying they come BEFORE this point (when the 2W are resurrected) or AFTER the 2W are resurrected, or are you saying the 2W are not classified with what is called "the dead in Christ," or what??

Or are you saying something different? Please clarify how you're understanding this. Thank you. = )

How is it you struggle with a simple question? or is this intentional?
Here, is the actual scripture reference and i simplified question for you.

Remember, the Scripture cannot lie = 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 -18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.


QUESTION: When do you see the Resurrection occurring in scripture?

Please post a scripture(s) - no need for latin, greek, arabic, hebrew or other.

The words of the LORD are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times. Psalm 12: 6

Your word is very pure; Therefore Your servant loves it. Psalm 119: 140

Our heavenly Father preserved His word in all languages.

 

[ewq1938]

That verse is John 17:15, not John 16:15. Regardless, Jesus is praying about the disciples there.

No one is saying, "...rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one..." The scriptures prove that the church, the believers, do not suffer the wrath of God during the seven year Tribulation period.

pretrib doctrine does teach that people are raptured so they do not suffer the persecutions Christians face during that time and the evil one is responsible for that.

Also, wrath of God comes after tribulation has ended and the wrath of God never targets Christians anyways. Why would you think God would be wrathful against his own?? The pretrib doctrine makes no sense but since it is man made, that is not surprising.

 

[ewq1938]

Completely agree.

When one reads the entire section, that is indeed the conclusion one must come to (especially as it pertains to the "ek" word ewq1938 is referring to in that context)

The passage applies to all disciples of Christ not only the first 12.