How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

i SEE those Two Witnesses, who are killed by the Beast and then are resurrected from death and then Caught Up to God.

The text states that they "ASCEND [G305]" (not the "SNATCH [G726]" word as found in 1Th4:17 about our Rapture), PER Rev11:12.

The text states that the 2W stand on their feet (are resurrected after having been killed) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (at a time ENTIRELY DISTINCT from when all other saints will be resurrected)... Many post-tribbers believe the resurrection to be "at the 7th Trumpet [associated with the 3rd Woe, PER what Rev8:13 informs us of]"...


... so WHY are these 2W resurrected PRIOR TO THAT POINT (according to your viewpoint)??


WHY? Please tell us.

 

[CS1]

Darby was one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren. He was right about the corruption of the Anglican Church of the time. Another leading light in the Brethren was George Mueller who built orphanages.

Darby lost the plot somewhere and founded the Exclusive Brethren. They became so exclusive that even God was not welcome.

Darby produced a good translation of the New Testament.

It's easy to criticise and judge interpretations. People believe certain doctrines for a reason. One scholar believes the a-millennial point of view, another the historicist. Me, I like Corrie ten Boom. She's a pan-millennialist. It will all pan out in the end.

The reality is that we don't know for sure. All will become clear one day. Try telling Christians in North Korea, Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan that we are headed for tribulation. They are going through it now. North Korean Christians could not be treated any worse than they are now.

There is always tribulation but the great Tribulation will be as the world has never seen, or will ever again. IT IS GOds wrath poured out on the world. I am not subject to God's wrath, and Christians are killed every day since the founding of the church. I am sure they believe those Christians in Afghanistan, Iraq, who were killed for the gospel.

 

[rayzor]

insalt if possible.Don't insult.The mans soul could be line.What would do if your love ones soul was on line?Besides all us all been idiots at one time or other.think effectiveness with people.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

[ @Lucy-Pevensie 's Post #84 ] "You change the story every time you are cornered." - L-P


I would say I have NEVER changed my story, but have consistently stated the same thing (on this Subject) from the time I started posting on it.


[I see you have no answer to the question on WHY the "2W" are resurrected from the dead and ascend up into Heaven at the "6th Trumpet events / 2nd Woe" at a time DISTINCT from when ALL other saints will be... ; it doesn't jive with the idea you presented about "resurrection" in your earlier post, so I can see why you'd like to avoid the question]

^ @DavidTree , I would appreciate your answering the question I posed earlier:

WHY are the "2W" resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot COMPLETELY DISTINCT from when all other saints will be resurrected??

(unless you believe all saints ARE "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot... DO YOU??)




[note to readers: the above Q is based on the text of Rev11:11,12,14,15]

I would start by stating that I don't believe The Revelation is a strictly chronological book.
If you want a discussion on The Book of Revelation, start a thread for that. But I suggest revise your typing style.
I know you want to emphasise certian things but I'm not going to follow you at length trying to decipher your hieroglyphs.

 

[DavidTree]

There is always tribulation but the great Tribulation will be as the world has never seen, or will ever again. IT IS GOds wrath poured out on the world. I am not subject to God's wrath, and Christians are killed every day since the founding of the church. I am sure they believe those Christians in Afghanistan, Iraq, who were killed for the gospel.

And what is the difference between being killed now by antichrists or being killed by the Antichrist???
If, you are killed for the Testimony of Jesus, it is the SAME thing dear brother no matter when in History it occurs - It is called Tribulation.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

 

[DavidTree]

The text states that they "ASCEND [G305]" (not the "SNATCH [G726]" word as found in 1Th4:17 about our Rapture), PER Rev11:12.

The text states that the 2W stand on their feet (are resurrected after having been killed) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (at a time ENTIRELY DISTINCT from when all other saints will be resurrected)... Many post-tribbers believe the resurrection to be "at the 7th Trumpet [associated with the 3rd Woe, PER what Rev8:13 informs us of]"...


... so WHY are these 2W resurrected PRIOR TO THAT POINT (according to your viewpoint)??


WHY? Please tell us.

oh boy here comes the circus act of words - "the word is ascend and not caught up"

Is not this what the Pharisees did with words from scripture until our Lord corrected them.

Unless you become like little children you will in no way enter the kingdom of God.

The foolishness of God is wiser then the wisdom of men.

The Scripture was written for Children - God's Children

We must all follow Christ under His Rules - Do not add or take away from His Word.

 

[Noteworthy]

Could someone give me a brief and simple summary of the different Tribulation theories and why it's such a hot topic in the U.S ? Just the basics rather than opinions. We don't seem to cover that in the UK denominations that I've been involved with, i've asked them about it but they don't seem to have heard of "pre-trib" ect. I tried reading the posts but it hasn't really clarified it for me, i guess because i'm unclear about the different basic views ?

Here is a simple graphical example of the beliefs.

...and why it's such a hot topic in the U.S ?

It is not Christ honoring if we attack and belittle each other when we study The Word together. That is not how The Spirit works.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

There is always tribulation but the great Tribulation will be as the world has never seen, or will ever again. IT IS GOds wrath poured out on the world. I am not subject to God's wrath, and Christians are killed every day since the founding of the church. I am sure they believe those Christians in Afghanistan, Iraq, who were killed for the gospel.

Those members of the body of Christ who will be martyred during the tribulation are not subject to God's damning wrath either.
Nor is the remnant of Israel.

Rev 14
‘If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.’ 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write this: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’

‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labour, for their deeds will follow them.’


1 Thes 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Not for wrath but for salvation

Not for wrath but for salvation

Not for wrath but for salvation

Not for wrath but for salvation

Learn it how The Bible teaches it. Pretrib does not teach it this way.
Pretrib teaches that it means you won't see tribulation. That is wrong.

 

[DavidTree]

Here is a simple graphical example of the beliefs.

It is not Christ honoring if we attack and belittle each other when we study The Word together. That is not how The Spirit works.

Correct - i love the scripture at the bottom of your posts John 13:35
That is why the First commandment is the Greatest - to love God with all our heart, mind , soul and strength.

But if we ALL do not follow the Irrevocable Commandment of our Lord, then division occurs, and this is not loving God.

This is the irrevocable commandment of God to know Him: Abraham believed God (His Word) and it was credited to him Righteousness.

Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22: 18-19

We ALL must follow Christ at His Word by not adjusting it to fit our opinions - this causes division.

i choose to bow my knee before Him who is the Word from the beginning.

Did not the serpent go after God's Word in the Garden to tweek it just a little but enough to subject the whole world to sin.

 

[CS1]

And what is the difference between being killed now by antichrists or being killed by the Antichrist???
If, you are killed for the Testimony of Jesus, it is the SAME thing dear brother no matter when in History it occurs - It is called Tribulation.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

I am not looking for the Anti-christ I am waiting for the Lord Jesus Christ. Today is the day of Salvation. Tomorrow is promised to no one.
Those Dead in Christ real rise First! 1thess 4:13-18 This was not said to those dead but to those who were alive and remained in the FAITH OF the Lord.

This was not hyperbole or metaphorical said. Our Hope is The Lord Coming and the resurrection from the dead BECAUSE HE LIVE WE SHALL LIVE ALSO.

Jesus is literally alive right now And When the Supreme Authority calls the dead forth they will raise from the dead and be seen by those who are alive Just as the graves were open on the day Jesus died on the Cross and the OLD saints were seen walking around.

Those who mock and scoff please continue but the word of God shows us God's ability to supernaturally Protect HIS People and delivery them out of the hands of the enemy.

1. Enoch walked with God and was translated to where God is
2. Noah God provided the way of salvation for only 8 souls
3. Moses and the Red Sea
4. Moses and water from the rock
5. Elijah and the chariot of fire
6. The three Hebrew children and the fourth Man in the Fiery Furnace
7. Lions Den
8. Jairus daughter
9. raising of Lazarus after four days being dead

And the Lord Jesu HIMself. I do not have to be a battered bride to prove my love for HIM. IF I die I will be with HIM, if I am life and He comes I will go with HIM. I do not make the devil greater than my God. I find it amazing those who hold to Calvinism believe in eternal security but think God has the inability to save us from HIS own wrath when the bible TELL US he DID, CAN, AND WILL.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

oh boy here comes the circus act of words - "the word is ascend and not caught up"

"Ascend [G305]" (Rev11:12) is indeed not the word (or idea conveyed by) the word "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / RAPTURE / harpazo [G726]" (1Th4:17).

I thought you were all about "not changing the Word" (as we should be aware not to do), but yet you have no qualms doing so here, and furthermore mock the person endeavoring to point out to you the distinction between these words, and exhorting you not to "change" them, the very thing you yourself said not to do (and said you don't do).

 

[CS1]

Those members of the body of Christ who will be martyred during the tribulation are not subject to God's damning wrath either.
Nor is the remnant of Israel.

Rev 14
‘If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.’ 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write this: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’

‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labour, for their deeds will follow them.’


1 Thes 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Not for wrath but for salvation

Not for wrath but for salvation

Not for wrath but for salvation

Not for wrath but for salvation

Learn it how The Bible teaches it. Pretrib does not teach it this way.
Pretrib teaches that it means you won't see tribulation. That is wrong.

all scripture not just Rev, and 1thess and 1corinthians were both written before the Book of Revelation. All scripture needs to be used to ensure the context is seen.

Jesus said Matthew 24:36-38

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Play time was over for that Generation YET Noah was saved.

 

[DavidTree]

I am not looking for the Anti-christ I am waiting for the Lord Jesus Christ. Today is the day of Salvation. Tomorrow is promised to no one.
Those Dead in Christ real rise First! 1thess 4:13-18 This was not said to those dead but to those who were alive and remained in the FAITH OF the Lord.

This was not hyperbole or metaphorical said. Our Hope is The Lord Coming and the resurrection from the dead BECAUSE HE LIVE WE SHALL LIVE ALSO.

Jesus is literally alive right now And When the Supreme Authority calls the dead forth they will raise from the dead and be seen by those who are alive Just as the graves were open on the day Jesus died on the Cross and the OLD saints were seen walking around.

Those who mock and scoff please continue but the word of God shows us God's ability to supernaturally Protect HIS People and delivery them out of the hands of the enemy.

1. Enoch walked with God and was translated to where God is
2. Noah God provided the way of salvation for only 8 souls
3. Moses and the Red Sea
4. Moses and water from the rock
5. Elijah and the chariot of fire
6. The three Hebrew children and the fourth Man in the Fiery Furnace
7. Lions Den
8. Jairus daughter
9. raising of Lazarus after four days being dead

And the Lord Jesu HIMself. I do not have to be a battered bride to prove my love for HIM. IF I die I will be with HIM, if I am life and He comes I will go with HIM. I do not make the devil greater than my God. I find it amazing those who hold to Calvinism believe in eternal security but think God has the inability to save us from HIS own wrath when the bible TELL US he DID, CAN, AND WILL.

Everything you said is BEAUTIFUL and i AGREE except your bottom ending paragraph.

When satan batters us, it is not God. When satan persecutes His Elect - it is not God tribulation does not come fro God but from sin in the world and from the ruler of this world (present age).

Whether we, as His Elect, face tribulation to the point of death now or in Revelation - it is the same suffering and death and GLORY.

i appreciatte you very much, get to know me and you will see i only care about us because He put us together in His Body - Amen

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

Even 2 Corinthians 1:4 and and 2 Corinthians 7:4 have the phrase "in all THE TRIBULATION [G2347 - thlipsei] of us" (same word in Rev1:9! ^ )...

...but this is not suggesting that the "us" of this text MEANS that they [or we] are IN the "7 years / 70th Week / 2520 days" that Revelation 4:1 through chpt 19 speaks of, which is a very specific, future, LIMITED time-period (aka the Day of the Lord's "IN THE NIGHT" aspect [1Th5:2-3]) that leads UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth.


-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-9.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/1-4.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/7-4.htm

 

[CS1]

Everything you said is BEAUTIFUL and i AGREE except your bottom ending paragraph.

When satan batters us, it is not God. When satan persecutes His Elect - it is not God tribulation does not come fro God but from sin in the world and from the ruler of this world (present age).

Whether we, as His Elect, face tribulation to the point of death now or in Revelation - it is the same suffering and death and GLORY.

i appreciatte you very much, get to know me and you will see i only care about us because He put us together in His Body - Amen

I disagree the Battle is the Lords my friend and we are victorious in HIM, The devil came but only to steal, kill, and destroy, BUT I have come that you May have Life and that life more abundantly. John 10:10

there are those who are called Christian that has already denied him without the needing of the antichrist.

The spirit of the antichrist is already at work 1John4:3

 

[DavidTree]

"Ascend [G305]" (Rev11:12) is indeed not the word (or idea conveyed by) the word "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / RAPTURE / harpazo [G726]" (1Th4:17).

I thought you were all about "not changing the Word" (as we should be aware not to do), but yet you have no qualms doing so here, and furthermore mock the person endeavoring to point out to you the distinction between these words, and exhorting you not to "change" them, the very thing you yourself said not to do (and said you don't do).

How many different names does our Lord give to Himself and His Saints???

Jesus the Christ - the Holy One of God, the Redeemer, His Salvation, His Right Hand, His ARM stretched forth all day long,
the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Servant, King of kings, the Lord of Hosts, the Bridegroom etc etc

Different names = same Person

The Bride of Christ, His Bride, His Church, His Elect, the Saints, Chosen in Him, Chosen Ones, Living Stones, Elect of God,
chosen in HIM before the world began, the Redeemed of the Lord, Faithful Martyrs, His Witnesses, Faithful Witness,
He gave to His Church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, We ALL, People of God, Family of God, etc, etc

Different names = same Bride

 

[CS1]

Everything you said is BEAUTIFUL and i AGREE except your bottom ending paragraph.

When satan batters us, it is not God. When satan persecutes His Elect - it is not God tribulation does not come fro God but from sin in the world and from the ruler of this world (present age).

Whether we, as His Elect, face tribulation to the point of death now or in Revelation - it is the same suffering and death and GLORY.

i appreciatte you very much, get to know me and you will see i only care about us because He put us together in His Body - Amen

the Jesus I serve is alive and doesn't lie.
salvation and saved means= Sozo which to salvation or to be saved from and it means healed, and delivered.

I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved.

saved from death of the grave by the resurrection of the lord Power, saved from hell eternally because of the Blood od Jesus

saved and delivered from the wrath to come because I am HIS Bride.

I believe in the great Hope of the church not the great hopeless.

 

[DavidTree]

I disagree the Battle is the Lords my friend and we are victorious in HIM, The devil came but only to steal, kill, and destroy, BUT I have come that you May have Life and that life more abundantly. John 10:10

there are those who are called Christian that has already denied him without the needing of the antichrist.

The spirit of the antichrist is already at work 1John4:3

What are you disagreeing with - that satan persecutes His Church ???

Jesus said:
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matt 24:9

 

[DavidTree]

the Jesus I serve is alive and doesn't lie.
salvation and saved means= Sozo which to salvation or to be saved from and it means healed, and delivered.

I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved.

saved from death of the grave by the resurrection of the lord Power, saved from hell eternally because of the Blood od Jesus

saved and delivered from the wrath to come because I am HIS Bride.

I believe in the great Hope of the church not the great hopeless.

AMEN, me too

 

[BryanPaul]

Here is a simple graphical example of the beliefs.

It is not Christ honoring if we attack and belittle each other when we study The Word together. That is not how The Spirit works.

Make sure you don't do that then. Asking why it's such i hot topic in the US and not the UK is not belittling anyone..There's no suggestion in what i said that i do, so it sounds like that comment came from some kind of inferiority complex.