Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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I reject the Thesis for these reasons:
The observation common to both proposed Thesis and Antithesis is that I want to know what the Scriptures actually say and mean in context before I can accept them as proof of arguments. It seems the Thesis should be what the Scripture actually says and means and the Antithesis, if the Thesis is not accepted, should be an alternative interpretation of the Scripture. Until there is harmony in understanding the Scripture(s) put forth, what's the point of proceeding?
- Jer17:9 does not say what the first sentence in the Thesis says.
- Jer17:9 does not use the word "natural" which is inserted into the second sentence of the Thesis likely from 1Cor2:14 without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.
- There's no reason to provide an Anthesis for an errant Thesis.
- It seems 1Tim2:3-4 is being interpreted to say that men learn and are saved from learning, but the simple reading of the verses seem to say men are saved then learn. So, what do the verses say and do they substantiate what the Antithesis statement says?
The observation common to both proposed Thesis and Antithesis is that I want to know what the Scriptures actually say and mean in context before I can accept them as proof of arguments. It seems the Thesis should be what the Scripture actually says and means and the Antithesis, if the Thesis is not accepted, should be an alternative interpretation of the Scripture. Until there is harmony in understanding the Scripture(s) put forth, what's the point of proceeding?
Hmmm, little did I realize we would need to break the first A-T-S into sub triads,
but here is my attempt to do that:
1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.
1.a.iii. Synthesis - Jer. 17:9 and 1Cor. 2:14 indicate that sinners cannot understand and accept GW unless God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).
How is that?
but here is my attempt to do that:
1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.
1.a.iii. Synthesis - Jer. 17:9 and 1Cor. 2:14 indicate that sinners cannot understand and accept GW unless God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).
How is that?
Here's part of my issue, GWH. I tried to say this earlier, so I'll try to elaborate a bit:
- "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9 NKJ)
- Rhetorically this is saying man cannot ultimately know or understand his own heart
- In Hebrew "deceitful" speaks of a heel and metaphorically trends into "deceitful" (think Jacob). The LXX chose to translate it with a word that primarily means "deep"
- IMO these 2 translations are the closer to the Greek and the Hebrew:
- LXA Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man, and who can know him?
- YLT Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?
- I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. (Jer. 17:10 NKJ)
- So, in this light of Jer17:9, it is God who does the assessment of what's in a man's heart
- This is in the context of:
- Jews who have departed from God and the following duality that leads up to the Jer17:9
- Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD. (Jer. 17:5 NKJ)
- "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, And whose hope is the LORD. 8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit. (Jer. 17:7-8 NKJ)
- Which sounds to me a lot like Deut30 - choose life...
- Jews who have departed from God and the following duality that leads up to the Jer17:9
- Note some things here:
- When those who focus too tightly on man's depravity and use statements like Jer17:9 to do so, they ultimately negate the fact that there are in context throughout Scripture men who trust in the Lord - men of Faith as Heb11 speaks of existing throughout history - men of the Remnant who did not go off into idolatry.
- Jer17:9-10 in context, both close and wide, retains this biblical reality, and in essence says it takes God the impartial and perfect judge to get to the depths of hearts and minds and determine properly how to give to men according to his ways and works.
- Thus, it is not saying men cannot know truth or cannot retain some semblance of [imperfect] trust in YHWH.
- It is saying it takes God to deal with the matter, to test the heart and search the mind, to make perfect judgement of what men are thinking and doing.
- Depending on the Hebrew translation, it may also speak of man's heart being incurable and thus taking us into the new heart given per the NC.
- It is also in context dealing with God's people Israel whose hearts have departed from Him. But to depart means they had to have been with Him for a time albeit we know it was imperfectly but remember the Remnant who were still around when Messiah came.
Well, post #132's thesis is that the meaning of Jer. 17:10 in context is what the post said:
1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
and your antithesis is that the meaning of Jer. 17:10 is what when you boil down your first iteration
[[1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion]] to amend what you just said?
IMO, my synthesis harmonizes the two adequately, but feel free to amend it.
1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
and your antithesis is that the meaning of Jer. 17:10 is what when you boil down your first iteration
[[1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion]] to amend what you just said?
IMO, my synthesis harmonizes the two adequately, but feel free to amend it.
One more thing about T-A-S #1: Our first thought should not be defending our translation against the TULIP thesis,
but whether there is any grain of truth in what it says that can be amplified as the basis for harmony.
In this case, the grain is that "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word"
with the key words being "of themselves".
We should admit there are many passages that indicate God takes the initiative in providing salvation,
but homing in on the problematic point we find that it is whether or not God is omniloving and just
rather than showing favoritism by providing only electing to provide some souls with the opportunity to be saved,
and they should admit there are many passages that indicate God loves everyone and is just.
These admissions form the basis of formulating the synthesis:
1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.
or more fine-tuned:
1.a.iii: God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation and choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).
Now here is my suggestion for T-A-S #2:
2a. Thesis: God knows that natural man, being natural man, is unrighteous; that they have no spiritual understanding; that none can seek after Him [Rom 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
2b. Antithesis: God commanded sinners to seek Him per Matt. 7:7b, “Seek, and you will find”, and He rewards those who do with salvation per Heb. 11:6b, “God rewards those who earnestly seek Him”.
2c. Synthesis: Sinful souls cannot seek God unless God enables them via the grace of volition (“seeking grace”), and He no longer hides the mystery of how to be saved per Matt. 13:35, Mark 4:22, Rom. 16:25, 1Cor. 2:7, Eph. 3:9, Col. 1:26.
but whether there is any grain of truth in what it says that can be amplified as the basis for harmony.
In this case, the grain is that "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word"
with the key words being "of themselves".
We should admit there are many passages that indicate God takes the initiative in providing salvation,
but homing in on the problematic point we find that it is whether or not God is omniloving and just
rather than showing favoritism by providing only electing to provide some souls with the opportunity to be saved,
and they should admit there are many passages that indicate God loves everyone and is just.
These admissions form the basis of formulating the synthesis:
1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.
or more fine-tuned:
1.a.iii: God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation and choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).
Now here is my suggestion for T-A-S #2:
2a. Thesis: God knows that natural man, being natural man, is unrighteous; that they have no spiritual understanding; that none can seek after Him [Rom 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
2b. Antithesis: God commanded sinners to seek Him per Matt. 7:7b, “Seek, and you will find”, and He rewards those who do with salvation per Heb. 11:6b, “God rewards those who earnestly seek Him”.
2c. Synthesis: Sinful souls cannot seek God unless God enables them via the grace of volition (“seeking grace”), and He no longer hides the mystery of how to be saved per Matt. 13:35, Mark 4:22, Rom. 16:25, 1Cor. 2:7, Eph. 3:9, Col. 1:26.
I think this thesis should more accurately read - "God knows that the natural man falls short of the glory He originally intended, that they have imperfect spiritual understanding; that none seeks continually after Him [Rom 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that keeps on understanding, there is none that keeps on seeking after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become spoiled; there is none that keeps on doing good, no, no one.
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To gear you up, I'm not picking up a lot of logical implications in very much of this, and I'm not inclined to be accepting incorrect interpretation of Scripture ignoring context as an acceptable Thesis or Antithesis which IMO fits the old adage of garbage in garbage out which before theology I spent a lot of time resolving in the earlier digital realm. Few seem able or interested in cleaning the garbage in.
Why object? Why not believe God gives all the ability to believe in Him--or in Satan? (aka MFW)
The logical implication from "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" that "no one of themselves can/will be receptive to His word" is that God gives all the ability to believe in Him--or in Satan.
The logical implication from "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" that "no one of themselves can/will be receptive to His word" is that God gives all the ability to believe in Him--or in Satan.
Understood. I have a few on the same and am just now considering another one. I'll post the content but maybe you already unignored for a moment.
Faith is a work. Anything that we must contribute to our salvation, anything, makes it a work simply because it would be ours to contribute - only by God's work can it be imbued it within someone. Not only would it be a work, but if a prerequisite to becoming saved, a law, but no one can be saved by their keeping of law. Besides, I do not believe we are saved by our faith but by Christ's faith freely imputed unto those whom He saves - He being the Savior, not us. Our faith accompanies salvation but is not its cause.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Faith is a work. Anything that we must contribute to our salvation, anything, makes it a work simply because it would be ours to contribute - only by God's work can it be imbued it within someone. Not only would it be a work, but if a prerequisite to becoming saved, a law, but no one can be saved by their keeping of law. Besides, I do not believe we are saved by our faith but by Christ's faith freely imputed unto those whom He saves - He being the Savior, not us. Our faith accompanies salvation but is not its cause.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Glad to see you here as well as on the SBS thread, PT. 
Your thesis works for me and seems essentially similar to what I said:
In saying "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word" the key words are "of themselves".
We should admit there are many passages that indicate God takes the initiative in providing salvation,
So, let us finalize T-A-S #1 and move on to #2 and the rest in the pro-TULIP post.
Your thesis works for me and seems essentially similar to what I said:
In saying "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word" the key words are "of themselves".
We should admit there are many passages that indicate God takes the initiative in providing salvation,
So, let us finalize T-A-S #1 and move on to #2 and the rest in the pro-TULIP post.
Glad to see you here as well as on the SBS thread, PT.
Your thesis works for me and seems essentially similar to what I said:
In saying "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word" the key words are "of themselves".
We should admit there are many passages that indicate God takes the initiative in providing salvation,
So, let us finalize T-A-S #1 and move on to #2 and the rest in the pro-TULIP post.
Your thesis works for me and seems essentially similar to what I said:
In saying "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word" the key words are "of themselves".
We should admit there are many passages that indicate God takes the initiative in providing salvation,
So, let us finalize T-A-S #1 and move on to #2 and the rest in the pro-TULIP post.
But you seem to be saying that no one can of themselves be receptive to the message of God's Gospel, when they hear it. I don't see any scripture that states that to be the case. Certainly, God needs to give the gospel to sinners. But once it is given, the sinner has the ability in themselves to receive or reject it.
I think John 6:29 = Eph. 2:8-10, which mean that faith is the non-meritorious condition of receiving salvation/forgiveness
and precedes loving works that manifest having received the HS at the moment of first believing on Him. Right?
Paul said in the Ephesians passage that we are saved by grace through faith, and he clearly taught
that it is the righteousness of Christ which is credited (imputed) to those who have faith like Abraham
and therefore satisfy God's condition/requirement for salvation. Agreed?
What is illogical about any of this? I noticed your disinclination to accept the first thesis,
which is why I said that our first thought should not be defending our translation,
but whether there is any grain of truth in the other translation that can be amplified
as the basis for achieving harmony, and I proposed that there should be no objection
to saying that "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word",
because the key words "of themselves" allow for the antithesis that the omniloving and just God
takes the initiative in providing salvation by providing everyone with the opportunity to be saved.
These observations form the basis of formulating the synthesis:
1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.
or more fine-tuned:
1.a.iii: God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation and choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).
Are we three agreed re this?
and precedes loving works that manifest having received the HS at the moment of first believing on Him. Right?
Paul said in the Ephesians passage that we are saved by grace through faith, and he clearly taught
that it is the righteousness of Christ which is credited (imputed) to those who have faith like Abraham
and therefore satisfy God's condition/requirement for salvation. Agreed?
What is illogical about any of this? I noticed your disinclination to accept the first thesis,
which is why I said that our first thought should not be defending our translation,
but whether there is any grain of truth in the other translation that can be amplified
as the basis for achieving harmony, and I proposed that there should be no objection
to saying that "no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word",
because the key words "of themselves" allow for the antithesis that the omniloving and just God
takes the initiative in providing salvation by providing everyone with the opportunity to be saved.
These observations form the basis of formulating the synthesis:
1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.
or more fine-tuned:
1.a.iii: God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation and choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).
Are we three agreed re this?