Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[studier]

Howdy studier, I did not know whether to post the above on this thread, the TOJ thread or the Kerygma thread. Thanks for
adding the intro, but did you cite the correct verse?

I am disappointed that rogerg found exercising the gifts of dialectical logic and perseverance to be tiring,
but let us soldier on as best we can. The item on the table was the first T-A-S based on his post #132:

1a. Thesis: God knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things. [Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1b. Antithesis: God went to a lot of trouble inspiring folks to write His word in Scripture, and Scripture says God wants everyone to learn GW and be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.

Would you like to comment on this before we proceed to the next one?

Thanks for checking the verse. S/b Acts13:17.

Out for awhile. More later.

 

[studier]

Howdy studier, I did not know whether to post the above on this thread, the TOJ thread or the Kerygma thread. Thanks for
adding the intro, but did you cite the correct verse?

I am disappointed that rogerg found exercising the gifts of dialectical logic and perseverance to be tiring,
but let us soldier on as best we can. The item on the table was the first T-A-S based on his post #132:

1a. Thesis: God knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things. [Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1b. Antithesis: God went to a lot of trouble inspiring folks to write His word in Scripture, and Scripture says God wants everyone to learn GW and be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

1c. Synthesis: God allows souls to sin from A&E to Judgment Day, but He loves humanity and provides the Way for souls to repent and be saved from a just hell.

Would you like to comment on this before we proceed to the next one?

Thanks for checking the verse. S/b Acts13:17.

Out for awhile. More later.

 

[GWH]

Thanks for checking the verse. S/b Acts13:17.

Out for awhile. More later.

Got it! See ya later later.

 

[studier]

1a. Thesis: God knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things. [Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I reject the Thesis for these reasons:

1. Jer17:9 does not say what the first sentence in the Thesis says.
2. Jer17:9 does not use the word "natural" which is inserted into the second sentence of the Thesis likely from 1Cor2:14 without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.

I reject the Antithesis for these reasons:

1. There's no reason to provide an Anthesis for an errant Thesis.
2. It seems 1Tim2:3-4 is being interpreted to say that men learn and are saved from learning, but the simple reading of the verses seem to say men are saved then learn. So, what do the verses say and do they substantiate what the Antithesis statement says?

Due to the above I see no need to review the Synthesis.

The observation common to both proposed Thesis and Antithesis is that I want to know what the Scriptures actually say and mean in context before I can accept them as proof of arguments. It seems the Thesis should be what the Scripture actually says and means and the Antithesis, if the Thesis is not accepted, should be an alternative interpretation of the Scripture. Until there is harmony in understanding the Scripture(s) put forth, what's the point of proceeding?

 

[GWH]

I reject the Thesis for these reasons:

1. Jer17:9 does not say what the first sentence in the Thesis says.
2. Jer17:9 does not use the word "natural" which is inserted into the second sentence of the Thesis likely from 1Cor2:14 without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.

I reject the Antithesis for these reasons:

1. There's no reason to provide an Anthesis for an errant Thesis.
2. It seems 1Tim2:3-4 is being interpreted to say that men learn and are saved from learning, but the simple reading of the verses seem to say men are saved then learn. So, what do the verses say and do they substantiate what the Antithesis statement says?

Due to the above I see no need to review the Synthesis.

The observation common to both proposed Thesis and Antithesis is that I want to know what the Scriptures actually say and mean in context before I can accept them as proof of arguments. It seems the Thesis should be what the Scripture actually says and means and the Antithesis, if the Thesis is not accepted, should be an alternative interpretation of the Scripture. Until there is harmony in understanding the Scripture(s) put forth, what's the point of proceeding?

Hmmm, little did I realize we would need to break the first A-T-S into sub triads,
but here is my attempt to do that:

1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.

1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.

1.a.iii. Synthesis - Jer. 17:9 and 1Cor. 2:14 indicate that sinners cannot understand and accept GW unless God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).

How is that?

 

[studier]

Hmmm, little did I realize we would need to break the first A-T-S into sub triads,
but here is my attempt to do that:

1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.

1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion.

1.a.iii. Synthesis - Jer. 17:9 and 1Cor. 2:14 indicate that sinners cannot understand and accept GW unless God's grace enables sufficient MFW for souls to seek salvation choose whether or not to cooperate with God's Way (per Deut. 30:19, e.g.).

How is that?

Here's part of my issue, GWH. I tried to say this earlier, so I'll try to elaborate a bit:

• "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9 NKJ)
  • Rhetorically this is saying man cannot ultimately know or understand his own heart
  • In Hebrew "deceitful" speaks of a heel and metaphorically trends into "deceitful" (think Jacob). The LXX chose to translate it with a word that primarily means "deep"
  • IMO these 2 translations are the closer to the Greek and the Hebrew:
    • LXA Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man, and who can know him?
    • YLT Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?
• I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. (Jer. 17:10 NKJ)
  • So, in this light of Jer17:9, it is God who does the assessment of what's in a man's heart
• This is in the context of:
  • Jews who have departed from God and the following duality that leads up to the Jer17:9
    • Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD. (Jer. 17:5 NKJ)
    • "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, And whose hope is the LORD. 8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit. (Jer. 17:7-8 NKJ)
    • Which sounds to me a lot like Deut30 - choose life...
• Note some things here:
  • When those who focus too tightly on man's depravity and use statements like Jer17:9 to do so, they ultimately negate the fact that there are in context throughout Scripture men who trust in the Lord - men of Faith as Heb11 speaks of existing throughout history - men of the Remnant who did not go off into idolatry.
  • Jer17:9-10 in context, both close and wide, retains this biblical reality, and in essence says it takes God the impartial and perfect judge to get to the depths of hearts and minds and determine properly how to give to men according to his ways and works.
  • Thus, it is not saying men cannot know truth or cannot retain some semblance of [imperfect] trust in YHWH.
  • It is saying it takes God to deal with the matter, to test the heart and search the mind, to make perfect judgement of what men are thinking and doing.
  • Depending on the Hebrew translation, it may also speak of man's heart being incurable and thus taking us into the new heart given per the NC.
  • It is also in context dealing with God's people Israel whose hearts have departed from Him. But to depart means they had to have been with Him for a time albeit we know it was imperfectly but remember the Remnant who were still around when Messiah came.

Until a Thesis and Antithesis deal with Scripture in context and reason out its meaning (via Thesis & Antithesis or other means), it seems we're just reasoning proof-texting which many times in these threads is inaccurate in interpretation. Having had a first real career in computers, this is the old adage, garbage in > garbage out.

 

[GWH]

Here's part of my issue, GWH. I tried to say this earlier, so I'll try to elaborate a bit:

• "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9 NKJ)
  • Rhetorically this is saying man cannot ultimately know or understand his own heart
  • In Hebrew "deceitful" speaks of a heel and metaphorically trends into "deceitful" (think Jacob). The LXX chose to translate it with a word that primarily means "deep"
  • IMO these 2 translations are the closer to the Greek and the Hebrew:
    • LXA Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man, and who can know him?
    • YLT Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?
• I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. (Jer. 17:10 NKJ)
  • So, in this light of Jer17:9, it is God who does the assessment of what's in a man's heart
• This is in the context of:
  • Jews who have departed from God and the following duality that leads up to the Jer17:9
    • Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD. (Jer. 17:5 NKJ)
    • "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, And whose hope is the LORD. 8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit. (Jer. 17:7-8 NKJ)
    • Which sounds to me a lot like Deut30 - choose life...
• Note some things here:
  • When those who focus too tightly on man's depravity and use statements like Jer17:9 to do so, they ultimately negate the fact that there are in context throughout Scripture men who trust in the Lord - men of Faith as Heb11 speaks of existing throughout history - men of the Remnant who did not go off into idolatry.
  • Jer17:9-10 in context, both close and wide, retains this biblical reality, and in essence says it takes God the impartial and perfect judge to get to the depths of hearts and minds and determine properly how to give to men according to his ways and works.
  • Thus, it is not saying men cannot know truth or cannot retain some semblance of [imperfect] trust in YHWH.
  • It is saying it takes God to deal with the matter, to test the heart and search the mind, to make perfect judgement of what men are thinking and doing.
  • Depending on the Hebrew translation, it may also speak of man's heart being incurable and thus taking us into the new heart given per the NC.
  • It is also in context dealing with God's people Israel whose hearts have departed from Him. But to depart means they had to have been with Him for a time albeit we know it was imperfectly but remember the Remnant who were still around when Messiah came.

Until a Thesis and Antithesis deal with Scripture in context and reason out its meaning (via Thesis & Antithesis or other means), it seems we're just reasoning proof-texting which many times in these threads is inaccurate in interpretation. Having had a first real career in computers, this is the old adage, garbage in > garbage out.

Well, post #132's thesis is that the meaning of Jer. 17:10 in context is what the post said:
1.a.i. Thesis - Jer. 17:9, "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" means that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word; that the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.

and your antithesis is that the meaning of Jer. 17:10 is what when you boil down your first iteration
[[1.a.ii. Antithesis - Jer. 17:9 does not say that the heart of "natural" man is deceitful..., but rather is likely taken from 1Cor. 2:14 ("The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit") without explanation or proving from Scripture that it is a warranted insertion]] to amend what you just said?

IMO, my synthesis harmonizes the two adequately, but feel free to amend it.