I am here, and as expected, it appears that at their core, the criticisms of 132 are similar to what were raised in other threads, but to be honest - with no disrespect intended - I don't really feel the need to battle through its points justifying/defending them into infinity. Anyway, it seems to me #132 is self-evident/self-explanatory and as such, can either be accepted or rejected on its face given there really isn't much more to add than what is already there. However, should anyone happen to have specific questions/ disagreements or need clarification, since I am now watching this thread, post them, and I will respond as quickly as I can.
Thanks for the invite, rogerg.
Well, we would like to find a TULIPist who desires to help harmonize Scripture that supports both sides of the issue regarding the doctrine of election by participating in a systematic study in the belief that truth is one, so playing pejorative ping-pong proof-texting is not the best method, however much fun it may be.
So, please do comment whenever you think our effort is in error. As you can see, we enumerated the points made in your post #132 and began discussing the first two, but because you are now paying attention, I will begin again with my comments.
1. "You are correct, God does know that, and by that He also knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
[
Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
I have pointed out that children raised in accordance with God's "plan A for parenting" to love Jesus as Lord from infancy (e.g. Timothy per 2Tim. 3:15-17) fit this description only if they repudiate such faith. Passages such as Jer. 17:9 seem to refer to unbelievers/those with a callous heart as Jesus cited in Matt. 13:14-15.
2. "He knows that natural man, being natural man, is unrighteous; that they have no spiritual understanding; that none can seek after Him [
Rom 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
I guess you are aware that Matt. 7:7 and Heb. 11:6 indicate it is possible to seek God, so how can these apparently contradictory types of Scripture be harmonized?
3. "He knows that He alone must give them a new heart, new spirit and a renewed mind, which only comes from salvation. Until and unless saved, they will never come to true spiritual wisdom. [
Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [
Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
It is not disputed that God must provide salvation, but rather whether God does so only for some, which would contradict Scriptures in the vein of John 3:16, Rom. 2:9-11, Eph. 6:9, 2Pet. 3:9, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Tit. 2:11 & Ezek. 33:11. So how can we jibe these two sets of Scripture?
4. "He knows that natural man is spiritually dead in sin and being spiritually dead, incapable of doing anything to give themselves spiritual life - that He must first forgive their sins, and from that, they obtain spiritual life; from spiritual life, comes spiritual understanding, not the reverse. [
Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[
Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
The problematic part is the same as for #3 and also how to harmonize with Scripture teaching that sinners are saved if they believe in Jesus as Lord, with "if" indicating a condition of accepting God's grace that they must cooperate in satisfying. So again, how to harmonize?
5. "He knows that by the wisdom of natural man, that natural man can never find wisdom. [
1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."
If wisdom means saving faith, then the problem is the same as for #3 & 4.
6. "He knows that natural man cannot even understand the tenets of salvation until their sins have first been forgiven them [
Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,"
This verse refers to John the Baptist telling people to repent in order to be forgiven (Luke 3:3), so it actually disagrees with your point.
7. "He knows that we are all completely dependent upon His grace and mercy for salvation - which mercy and grace He does not impart to everyone - we can contribute nothing to the receiving of it but to be its recipients: it cannot be purchased, nor deserved, nor taken by force, nor by works - it is completely and in its fullness a gift from Him alone in all ways, given only to those whom He has chosen for it, it being out of the reach or power of man. Should we have to make any contribution at all for it, then we would be co-saviors with Christ, but Christ alone is the Savior. Instead, we are first saved, and from/by that, given the attributes of salvation which follow it - those of a Christian - such as true faith - which come through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
This paragraph stems from the fallacy that faith is meritorious rather than merely the condition of receiving an unearned gift.
