Hell's Population Clock

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UnderGrace said:
What is "eternal life" then?

How are we partakers of the life of Christ then....Christ is not in the grave.

Okay I have to ask but are you Seventh Day Adventist?
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Christ has risen I agree 100 percent. He is the prototype of what will happen to us. I am not seventh day adventist. I do not attend any denomination. I was involved in pentecostal churches many years back. I have begun learning the bible myself and also with the help at this website:
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/beliefs.html
It has the best teaching bar none I have ever seen. They examine the bible in a very methodical and unbiased manner.
 
Petercito said:
Again, Jesus is not talking to you or me. He was talking to the Jews, who did not believe He was The Only Begotten Son of God. He was telling them what they had to do.
Keep things in context. But yes of course as believers the scripture is true for us.
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Whether to the Jews or Gentiles, the message is still relevant, since anyone who doesn't believe will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is no offer of salvation a person has died in their sins, as there is no scripture that would support this. Once an unbeliever dies their record is sealed.

As for little children, the mentally ill, I'm sure that God will be just in this. But for you to make mention of them and then to use it as a means for salvation after death, it is pure conjecture on your part.

Once an unbeliever dies God's grace, mercy and love are no longer in operation for that individual.
 
Ahwatukee said:
Good day Petercito,

The claim that God would be unjust would be false. And the reason is that, there is none righteous, no not one. All fall short of God's righteous standards. No one is entitled to salvation, it is a free gift for those whom God chose. For no one can come to the Son except the Father draws him. This would infer that God does not draw everyone. Therefore, those who don't come to Christ are still guilty of sin and the reward for sin is death.

So, God is not being unjust, for God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and He hardens whom He hardens.

As Paul stated in His example demonstrating God's sovereign choice:

"One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel of honor and another for dishonor?

Regarding God's sovereign choice and Pharaoh He says:

"For this very purpose I have raised you up, so that I might show My power in you, and that My name should be declared in all the earth.” So then, He shows mercy to whom He wants, and He hardens whom He wants."
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Again, someone misquoting the bible and clearly not understanding what is written in the bible.
I never said anyone was entitled to salvation, it is a free gift.

Lets test what you have quoted with reality. But again understand who the audience was at the time the scriptures were recorded. It was NOT written to you or me!!!!! If you think that you are insane. The bible has been preserved for our benefit yes, but not written directly to you or me.
God does draw all people to Him yes I agree,

So people born before Jesus, or after Jesus and never ever having heard of His name are going to be destroyed by God? That is idiotic and unbiblical.
Children who cannot talk, babies, mentally challenged etc all going to be destroyed? Again idiotic and unbiblical.

You read the bible but you do not understand it.
 
Ahwatukee said:
Whether to the Jews or Gentiles, the message is still relevant, since anyone who doesn't believe will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is no offer of salvation a person has died in their sins, as there is no scripture that would support this. Once an unbeliever dies their record is sealed.

As for little children, the mentally ill, I'm sure that God will be just in this. But for you to make mention of them and then to use it as a means for salvation after death, it is pure conjecture on your part.

Once an unbeliever dies God's grace, mercy and love are no longer in operation for that individual.
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Romans 5v13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Romans 4v15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Hmm kind of flies in the face of your narrow view of the bible.
 
Petercito said:
Romans 5v13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Romans 4v15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Hmm kind of flies in the face of your narrow view of the bible.
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And think about this, You're quoting Nt scripture. Did Jesus and the apostles or the Jews of that time have the NT? No!!! Learn the rest of the OT before you startquoting the NT
Ahwatukee said:
Whether to the Jews or Gentiles, the message is still relevant, since anyone who doesn't believe will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is no offer of salvation a person has died in their sins, as there is no scripture that would support this. Once an unbeliever dies their record is sealed.

As for little children, the mentally ill, I'm sure that God will be just in this. But for you to make mention of them and then to use it as a means for salvation after death, it is pure conjecture on your part.

Once an unbeliever dies God's grace, mercy and love are no longer in operation for that individual.
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By your definition, your words are pure conjecture also. You have contradicted the very thing you said earlier regarding the mentally ill and children which supports my argument not yours.
 
Petercito said:
Christ has risen I agree 100 percent. He is the prototype of what will happen to us. I am not seventh day adventist. I do not attend any denomination. I was involved in pentecostal churches many years back. I have begun learning the bible myself and also with the help at this website:
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/beliefs.html
It has the best teaching bar none I have ever seen. They examine the bible in a very methodical and unbiased manner.
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Well it is good to research, however one has to research all sides and and compare to scripture.

Thanks for the link.

I am still unclear on what you think happens to those who have not heard the gospel etc.,
 
UnderGrace said:
Well it is good to research, however one has to research all sides and and compare to scripture.

Thanks for the link.

I am still unclear on what you think happens to those who have not heard the gospel etc.,
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Only God knows there fate, but they will be judged according to their hearts and knowledge of right and wrong.
Like I quoted somewhere before there is no sin where there is no law given.

Jesus said how you judge you will be judged and with the measure you use it.
So we should all keep that in mind.
 
Petercito said:
Only God knows there fate, but they will be judged according to their hearts and knowledge of right and wrong.
Like I quoted somewhere before there is no sin where there is no law given.

Jesus said how you judge you will be judged and with the measure you use it.
So we should all keep that in mind.
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I agree on tongues, but the website you shared has many problems sadly.

I agree with starting from scratch and really putting our ideas to the test, however, over reliance on one teacher never leads to sound doctrine......just some advice take it or leave it, but there is no clear Gospel message on that website that is a problem. :(

Baptism is not part of being saved.

Baptism is not a "work" in the sense that Paul used the term when excluding "works" from salvation. Baptism is therefore not to be excluded from connection with initial salvation based on the "not of works" passages of Scripture. Paul explicitlyincluded baptism in our salvation process, and excluded "works of righteousness" in the very same verse (Titus 3:5)
 
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UnderGrace said:
I agree on tongues, but the website you shared has many problems sadly.

I agree with starting from scratch and really putting our ideas to the test, however, over reliance on one teacher never leads to sound doctrine......just some advice take it or leave it, but there is no clear Gospel message on that website that is a problem. :(

Baptism is not part of being saved.

Baptism is not a "work" in the sense that Paul used the term when excluding "works" from salvation. Baptism is therefore not to be excluded from connection with initial salvation based on the "not of works" passages of Scripture. Paul explicitlyincluded baptism in our salvation process, and excluded "works of righteousness" in the very same verse (Titus 3:5)
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You haven't looked at the site properly. The beliefs are very clear on the link I sent. http://www.4windsfellowships.net/beliefs.html

Firstly it explains their objective principles for examining the scriptures. Then a summary belief in the following topics.

Who God is: The Law of Moses vs. the Law of Christ: Races & Racism:
Who The Son of God is: The Universal Assembly: The Bible:
The Holy Breath/Spirit: The Local Assembly:
The Helpless State of Mankind: The Reward of Faithful Believers:
Conditional Immortality: The Total Destruction of the Wicked:
Salvation: The Fate of the Ignorant:

The site does not say that baptism is a work. Baptism is for the remission of sins and for the gift of the holy spirit.

Acts 2v38 ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call’.
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/purpose.pdf

There is so much information on that site it is almost overwhelming. There is also a forum which anyone may join and ask questions or debate any topic with logical biblical examination.
The site is not just one persons opinion. Anytime anyone has a problem with anything stated in their teachings they are free to challenge that and state why they disagree. Tim is open to correction as far as I can see.
 
Petercito said:
Baptism is for the remission of sins and for the gift of the holy spirit.
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Jesus is for the remission of sin and it is the Spirit of Jesus (Acts 16:6) that comes upon us because we have believed upon Him and His work on our behalf.
 
UnderGrace said:
Jesus is for the remission of sin and it is the Spirit of Jesus (Acts 16:6) that comes upon us because we have believed upon Him and His work on our behalf.
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You obviously didn't read everything I wrote.

Acts 2v38 ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call’.

Read the article I sent previously for a complete picture, It is long, but conclusive. Just randomly quoting a scripture from here or there solves nothing.
 
Petercito said:
You obviously didn't read everything I wrote.

Acts 2v38 ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call’.

Read the article I sent previously for a complete picture, It is long, but conclusive. Just randomly quoting a scripture from here or there solves nothing.
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"Turning away from sin" is not the Gospel. When the Gospel is not right there is nothing further to read.

Do yourself a favor and leave those teachings there is only heartache and turmoil there.

Wrong
.....message of the Gospel, turning away from sin (repentance) to Christ to become His follower, and being baptized unto Christ upon one's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Wrong
Continuing on the "difficult path" (that is, continuing the process of renovation of the heart and mind to conform to the will of God) until the end of this life is necessary for our salvation to be completed.
 
UnderGrace said:
"Turning away from sin" is not the Gospel. When the Gospel is not right there is nothing further to read.

Do yourself a favor and leave those teachings there is only heartache and turmoil there.

Wrong
.....message of the Gospel, turning away from sin (repentance) to Christ to become His follower, and being baptized unto Christ upon one's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Wrong
Continuing on the "difficult path" (that is, continuing the process of renovation of the heart and mind to conform to the will of God) until the end of this life is necessary for our salvation to be completed.
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Your'e not really making any sense. You need to open your eyes and read what is written.

So what is the gospel? Is it not that Jesus 'The Christ'' was sent by His Father to die for us and that we can receive salvation?
 
Petercito said:
Your'e not really making any sense. You need to open your eyes and read what is written.

So what is the gospel? Is it not that Jesus 'The Christ'' was sent by His Father to die for us and that we can receive salvation?
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People have what they deserve. It is only God who can open the minds of the deceived.
 
Salvation:
God is ready, willing, and able to save and declare righteous anyone who obeys the Gospel. God actively draws all people by His holy Breath to repentance because "God is not willing that any should perish." Everyone has been given a free will. God does not choose who will be saved and who will be lost regardless of the individual's choice. The Bible is absolutely clear regarding whom God bestows His grace upon, and whom He resists. "God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble." Therefore, those who humble themselves and receive His offer of salvation receive His grace. However, most refuse to humble themselves, resist Him, and will perish. Obeying the Gospel means hearing and understanding the Gospel, believing the message of the Gospel, turning away from sin (repentance) to Christ to become His follower, and being baptized unto Christ upon one's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. When someone meets these conditions, God forgives and sets them free from sins, adopts them into His family, begins the process of renovating the mind and heart, and places them as members in the local assembly to be co-partakers of the holy Breath within that assembly. Continuing on the "difficult path" (that is, continuing the process of renovation of the heart and mind to conform to the will of God) until the end of this life is necessary for our salvation to be completed. Completion will take place at the resurrection to eternal life "at His coming."
 
The Fate of the Ignorant:
The Bible only absolutely condemns to utter destruction the wicked who have rejected the knowledge of God which they have received, or flatly rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ which they have heard and understood. God is just, yet also merciful and gracious. He "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked," nor does He reckon "sin" where there is no law. While those who receive Jesus Christ and remain in Him are promised immortality, this does not limit God from showing mercy on little children, those with mental disabilities, those who have never heard the message of salvation, or other special circumstances. We have authority to speak only where God has clearly spoken. God is able to apply the atonement of Christ and give immortality to whomever He chooses. We therefore leave such people in God's hands, trusting His nature and His good character to deal with them with both justice and mercy.
 
The Total Destruction of the Wicked:
The wicked and disbelieving will be completely destroyed "... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe."The wicked and disbelieving who have died prior to Christ's coming will be raised from the dead at the end of the Millennium and judged according to their works. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." "This is the second death."The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is "set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire," and "an example to those who afterward would live ungodly."This is the biblical prototype for the "Lake of Fire."
 
Petercito said:
Your'e not really making any sense. You need to open your eyes and read what is written.

So what is the gospel? Is it not that Jesus 'The Christ'' was sent by His Father to die for us and that we can receive salvation?
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My eyes are open.

Not the Gospel..... Salvation is a one time event, a gift ...given to those who believe on Christ Jesus for salvation, we are regenerated and sanctified in Him from the moment we first believed on Him for salvation.

There is no continuing on the difficult path for salvation, we do not achieve what is a gift. Salvation is not a reward.

Continuing on the "difficult path" (that is, continuing the process of renovation of the heart and mind to conform to the will of God) until the end of this life is necessary for our salvation to be completed. Completion will take place at the resurrection to eternal life "at His coming."
Click to expand...
 
UnderGrace said:
My eyes are open.

Not the Gospel..... Salvation is a one time event, a gift ...given to those who believe on Christ Jesus for salvation, we are regenerated and sanctified in Him from the moment we first believed on Him for salvation.

There is no continuing on the difficult path for salvation, we do not achieve what is a gift. Salvation is not a reward.
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So you are saying and correct me if I am wrong. I can receive the gift of salvation today and then in a week begin fornicating and I am still saved?
I do agree salvation is a gift and not a work. I have not said otherwise, have I?
 
Petercito said:
So you are saying and correct me if I am wrong. I can receive the gift of salvation today and then in a week begin fornicating and I am still saved?
I do agree salvation is a gift and not a work. I have not said otherwise, have I?
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Salvation is a gift, but the process of living your life and conforming to Gods ways takes a decision on our part. We have the choice to do good or evil. We are not once saved always saved.
 
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