GRACE VS LAW OR GRACE WITH LAW ?

[IamHisson]

The debate surrounding grace, works, and salvation often leads to confusion, especially when we try to understand the relationship between God's sovereign grace and human responsibility. A common view, held by some, is that salvation is entirely God's work, with no contribution from humanity. This view is rooted in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasize that salvation is a gift from God, "not of works, so that no one can boast."

On the surface, this perspective seems compelling because it highlights God’s complete and unmerited grace. However, while it is true that salvation is entirely the work of God, this view can sometimes lead to the mistaken belief that our response—our obedience to God—is unnecessary or even contradictory to grace. If salvation is already secured, some may argue, why would anyone need to do anything at all?

This is where the true power of grace comes into play. Grace, as revealed through Jesus Christ, doesn’t just save us—it transforms us. It gives us the ability, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to live according to God’s will and to obey His law. Romans 8:3-4 beautifully captures this dynamic: “For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son…in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Grace does not negate the law; it empowers us to fulfill it, not by our own strength, but through Christ’s strength within us.

This leads to the conclusion that faith and works are not in opposition, but are two sides of the same coin. We are saved by grace through faith, and the evidence of that salvation is seen in the way we live—by doing the works that God has prepared for us. James 2:17 reminds us, "Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." True faith will inevitably produce a transformed life—a life marked by obedience to God’s commands, not as a means of earning salvation, but as a natural response to the grace we’ve received.

The key misunderstanding in argument lies in the belief that the necessity of obedience to God’s law somehow diminishes the grace we receive. But in reality, it is through grace that we are given the capacity to obey. Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose.” Our ability to respond to God, to live according to His law, and to do good works, is all made possible through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Another critical point to address is the role of human will in salvation. Grace is indeed a gift, freely offered, but it must be received. God’s grace does not automatically apply to everyone; it requires our active response. Revelation 3:20 captures this truth: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in…” God offers salvation, but He does not force it upon us. We must choose to accept His grace, and in that choice, we are then enabled to live out His will.

In essence, there is no conflict between law and grace, just as there is no contradiction between works and faith. Grace is not a license to sin, but the empowerment to live righteously. Salvation is not by works, but it results in a life of works, as the believer is transformed and made capable of fulfilling God’s commands. It’s not that we are passive recipients of salvation who do nothing in response; rather, salvation by grace leads to an active life of faith and obedience.

So, the message is clear: Grace and works are not opposites. They are intricately linked. Grace saves us, faith receives it, and works are the fruit of the salvation we’ve received. The law is not abolished; it is fulfilled in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. True faith, empowered by grace, will always lead to a life that reflects God’s character.

Ultimately, God's grace is not something that removes human responsibility but rather enables it. Salvation is a divine gift, and while we cannot earn it, we are called to receive it with a heart that is transformed by His love. As we receive grace, we are empowered to live according to God’s will, and it is through this obedience that the glory of God’s salvation is made evident in our lives.

 

[homwardbound]

God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it never requires us to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value means that we are not required to have perfect obedience. In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So they were offered the same choice between the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life and it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience.


It is absurd to suggest that God's grace is in conflict with God's law as if a house divided against itself could stand. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

hey, thanks for your opinion, God requires perfection, which no one else can do perfectly
Re-read Galatians please all of it
Especially Chapter 3, thanks love you and glad you care to be saved by God for you too

 

[homwardbound]

The covenant of Mosaic Law is made of no effect when the New Covenant of Grace came into effect -----so they cannot coexist together -----

The Mosaic Laws required no Saving Faith to keep them ----You kept the Laws by your works of trying to keep the laws and please God ----and it was not just the 10 Commandments that had to be kept ---it was the 613 Laws that were to be kept ---if you kept the laws by your works then you received a Blessing ---if you didn't keep the laws you received a Curse ----so you were striving to get the Blessing and because we humans are corrupt in our nature no human could keep the Laws and therefor the Curse was always in place for the people ---

The New Covenant of Grace needs Faith that believes in the unseen realm to be put in effect ----God the Father changes your hardened heart to a softened heart that accepts the Gospel and this allows Christ's faith to be
inbirthed in you when you hear the Gospel being Preached ----there is no works required to receive this New Covenant of Grace ---

The law after your Saved ----the Holy Spirit then convicts your conscience when you sin ----so if you steal an item in a store ---the Holy Spirit will make you feel guilt and shame and you will want to repent of that sin -by confessing it to God --and stay away from committing any sin as much as possible -----

God hates mixture ---so you cannot mix the Law with Grace ----you cannot serve 2 masters ----the Law was given to show sin ---Christ shed His Blood to cover sin ------

The law kept you in Bondage -----Grace frees you from Bondage ------

View attachment 274205

To me took away not covered as was in the first testament under Law then
Hebrews 7:11-12, Romans 10:4 and many others state past tense now, and through belief one sees the done work for them and then begins new in stopping sin and not of self ever at least this I finally see as Paul speaks of in Phil. 3 to me, I see wha the says as saying "I never get tired of telling you this
Amazing grace given that I see you see and thank you for this

 

[Soyeong]

The debate surrounding grace, works, and salvation often leads to confusion, especially when we try to understand the relationship between God's sovereign grace and human responsibility. A common view, held by some, is that salvation is entirely God's work, with no contribution from humanity. This view is rooted in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasize that salvation is a gift from God, "not of works, so that no one can boast."

On the surface, this perspective seems compelling because it highlights God’s complete and unmerited grace. However, while it is true that salvation is entirely the work of God, this view can sometimes lead to the mistaken belief that our response—our obedience to God—is unnecessary or even contradictory to grace. If salvation is already secured, some may argue, why would anyone need to do anything at all?

This is where the true power of grace comes into play. Grace, as revealed through Jesus Christ, doesn’t just save us—it transforms us. It gives us the ability, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to live according to God’s will and to obey His law. Romans 8:3-4 beautifully captures this dynamic: “For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son…in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Grace does not negate the law; it empowers us to fulfill it, not by our own strength, but through Christ’s strength within us.

This leads to the conclusion that faith and works are not in opposition, but are two sides of the same coin. We are saved by grace through faith, and the evidence of that salvation is seen in the way we live—by doing the works that God has prepared for us. James 2:17 reminds us, "Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." True faith will inevitably produce a transformed life—a life marked by obedience to God’s commands, not as a means of earning salvation, but as a natural response to the grace we’ve received.

The key misunderstanding in argument lies in the belief that the necessity of obedience to God’s law somehow diminishes the grace we receive. But in reality, it is through grace that we are given the capacity to obey. Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose.” Our ability to respond to God, to live according to His law, and to do good works, is all made possible through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Another critical point to address is the role of human will in salvation. Grace is indeed a gift, freely offered, but it must be received. God’s grace does not automatically apply to everyone; it requires our active response. Revelation 3:20 captures this truth: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in…” God offers salvation, but He does not force it upon us. We must choose to accept His grace, and in that choice, we are then enabled to live out His will.

In essence, there is no conflict between law and grace, just as there is no contradiction between works and faith. Grace is not a license to sin, but the empowerment to live righteously. Salvation is not by works, but it results in a life of works, as the believer is transformed and made capable of fulfilling God’s commands. It’s not that we are passive recipients of salvation who do nothing in response; rather, salvation by grace leads to an active life of faith and obedience.

So, the message is clear: Grace and works are not opposites. They are intricately linked. Grace saves us, faith receives it, and works are the fruit of the salvation we’ve received. The law is not abolished; it is fulfilled in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. True faith, empowered by grace, will always lead to a life that reflects God’s character.

Ultimately, God's grace is not something that removes human responsibility but rather enables it. Salvation is a divine gift, and while we cannot earn it, we are called to receive it with a heart that is transformed by His love. As we receive grace, we are empowered to live according to God’s will, and it is through this obedience that the glory of God’s salvation is made evident in our lives.

A gift can be the experience of doing something, such as with giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it. Likewise, God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments and something that we inherit is a gift.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ do good works, while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is nevertheless intrinsically the way that He is giving us His gift of saving us from not being a doer of good works. Doing good works is not in response to our gift salvation or evidence of it, but rather the experience of being a doer of is part of its content. It's not a response to grace, but rather it is how God is being gracious to us. In Titus 2:11-13, it doesn't say either that we need to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result or that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

 

[Soyeong]

I see it in an nutshell
Believe God (Father of risen Son), receive from God, God's security being sealed by God Eph 1:13. Phil 1:6
Receive and see, for God will not quit working on anyone to see this amazing grace given to appreciate and not have to do it. Actually agree with God and choose to do it and willingly then do it without any credit to self in doing it. seeing it happen through you

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to God's law.

Paul talked of this in Phil 3 about how he gave up under Law, that he saw him as best at doing that perfectly, gave that up to win the risen Christ and not be under Law any longer.
Yet saw to uphold Law as good, it is not the law itself, it is us our first nature first born birth in selfishness that, unless one agrees with God between God and them, the selfishness will not leave otherwise is what I see now, that happened in me after trying to do Law perfectly under Law that kept me sinning over and over and over again

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are works of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). So that does not leave room to interpret Philippians 3 as Paul saying that God's law is rubbish, as giving up being under it, and as saying that we just need to focus knowing Christ instead, but rather the problem was that he had been obeying God's law without being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and that is what he counted as rubbish.

hey, thanks for your opinion, God requires perfection, which no one else can do perfectly

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation. So nothing in this passage has anything to do with ending God's law, but just the opposite, and obedience to it was presented as possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfection.

Re-read Galatians please all of it
Especially Chapter 3, thanks love you and glad you care to be saved by God for you too

The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can thankfully have our sins for given.
It is incorrect to interpret Galatians as speaking against obeying what God has commanded or as saying that we need to have perfect obedience.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hi dear brethren!

This is Iamhisson

The relationship between grace and law has been a point of deep theological reflection throughout the history of Christianity. On one hand, we find the law, which is given as a guide for righteous living, a standard that reflects God's holiness and justice. T

Actually this is not why it was given. it was given to show us how impossible it is to Keep Gods requirment

I can keep the law (in practice as no one can keep the law) . yet still liv in sin, the pharisees proved this

he law, first revealed in the Old Testament, provides the framework for understanding right and wrong and how humanity should live in covenant with God.

On the other hand, grace is God's unmerited favor, freely given to humanity, despite our inability to keep the law perfectly. It is the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law's demands and bore the penalty of sin on our behalf. Grace stands in contrast to the law in that it is not earned or deserved but is a demonstration of God’s love and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist? Paul, in his letters to the early churches, addresses this tension. In Romans 6:14, he writes, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Yet, in Romans 3:31, he also asks, “Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

This tension between grace and law is not merely a theoretical debate but is vital for understanding the Christian life. How does the believer navigate the demands of holiness while relying on the sufficiency of grace? Is there a place for both grace and law in the Christian journey, or must one dominate the other?

Through careful study of Scripture, we will explore the foundational truths of both grace and law, and consider whether they are mutually exclusive or if, together, they form a deeper, more complete understanding of God’s plan for salvation and sanctification.

What's your mind? I would appreciate your contribution on such an interesting topic that tends to separate Christians.

Jesus answered this as did paul.

1. 1 two commands of love, in these are all the law and prophets.

2. Seek after the things of the spirit.

the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to christ..

 

[Soyeong]

The covenant of Mosaic Law is made of no effect when the New Covenant of Grace came into effect -----so they cannot coexist together -----

The Mosaic Laws required no Saving Faith to keep them ----You kept the Laws by your works of trying to keep the laws and please God ----and it was not just the 10 Commandments that had to be kept ---it was the 613 Laws that were to be kept --

In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promises of a covenant that has already been ratified, so God's covenants are cumulative. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before it, so this is what it means to be under grace, the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law, and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Likewise, in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is also a covenant of grace and law along with all of God's other covenants.

-if you kept the laws by your works then you received a Blessing ---if you didn't keep the laws you received a Curse ----so you were striving to get the Blessing and because we humans are corrupt in our nature no human could keep the Laws and therefor the Curse was always in place for the people ---

In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse was not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience, but on whether we choose to serve God or to chase after other gods. While all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, all being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so by repeating we can continue to be a doer of the law and not come under its curse.

The New Covenant of Grace needs Faith that believes in the unseen realm to be put in effect ----God the Father changes your hardened heart to a softened heart that accepts the Gospel and this allows Christ's faith to be
inbirthed in you when you hear the Gospel being Preached ----there is no works required to receive this New Covenant of Grace ---

The law after your Saved ----the Holy Spirit then convicts your conscience when you sin ----so if you steal an item in a store ---the Holy Spirit will make you feel guilt and shame and you will want to repent of that sin -by confessing it to God --and stay away from committing any sin as much as possible ----

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to is a a central part of accepting the Gospel.

God hates mixture ---so you cannot mix the Law with Grace ----you cannot serve 2 masters ----the Law was given to show sin ---Christ shed His Blood to cover sin ------

It is absurd suggest that God's grace is opposed to His law or to suggest that obeying God's law is serving a different master than God as if a house divided against itself could stand, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law.

The law kept you in Bondage -----Grace frees you from Bondage ------

View attachment 274205

In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is transgressing the Mosaic Law that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free.

 

[Soyeong]

Actually this is not why it was given. it was given to show us how impossible it is to Keep Gods requirment

I can keep the law (in practice as no one can keep the law) . yet still liv in sin, the pharisees proved this

Nowhere does the Bible say that was why God's law was given, but rather it says the opposite. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one can keep. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to deny that we can keep it is to deny that we can love God and to deny that His commandments are not burdensome. Moreover, they are many examples in the Bible of people who did keep God's law, such as those on Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

Jesus answered this as did paul.

1. 1 two commands of love, in these are all the law and prophets.

Everything in God's law is in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of God's commandments.

2. Seek after the things of the spirit.

Everything that God has commanded is in accordance with the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law.

the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to christ..

Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law leads us to Christ because it was given to teach us how to know and be like him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything that he taught and go back to doing what it reveals to be wickedness.

 

[studentoftheword]

In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promises of a covenant that has already been ratified, so God's covenants are cumulative

Wrong =====if you want to argue about God's word ---do it with God not man


Hebrews 8:13

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition


13 When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use).

And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether.

 

[Inquisitor]

Hi dear brethren!

This is Iamhisson

The relationship between grace and law has been a point of deep theological reflection throughout the history of Christianity. On one hand, we find the law, which is given as a guide for righteous living, a standard that reflects God's holiness and justice. The law, first revealed in the Old Testament, provides the framework for understanding right and wrong and how humanity should live in covenant with God.

On the other hand, grace is God's unmerited favor, freely given to humanity, despite our inability to keep the law perfectly. It is the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law's demands and bore the penalty of sin on our behalf. Grace stands in contrast to the law in that it is not earned or deserved but is a demonstration of God’s love and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist? Paul, in his letters to the early churches, addresses this tension. In Romans 6:14, he writes, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Yet, in Romans 3:31, he also asks, “Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

This tension between grace and law is not merely a theoretical debate but is vital for understanding the Christian life. How does the believer navigate the demands of holiness while relying on the sufficiency of grace? Is there a place for both grace and law in the Christian journey, or must one dominate the other?

Through careful study of Scripture, we will explore the foundational truths of both grace and law, and consider whether they are mutually exclusive or if, together, they form a deeper, more complete understanding of God’s plan for salvation and sanctification.

What's your mind? I would appreciate your contribution on such an interesting topic that tends to separate Christians.

The law only grants the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The law is not a pathway to holiness rather the law of Moses informs you that you are evil.

God gave the law to Israel to prepare Israel for the arrival of the messiah.

God gave the law of Moses for Jesus to obey and to fulfill with that perfect sacrifice.

No one in Israel could obey the law of Moses not even Moses himself.

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses.

 

[Inquisitor]

Nowhere does the Bible say that was why God's law was given, but rather it says the opposite. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one can keep. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to deny that we can keep it is to deny that we can love God and to deny that His commandments are not burdensome. Moreover, they are many examples in the Bible of people who did keep God's law, such as those on Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.


Everything in God's law is in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of God's commandments.


Everything that God has commanded is in accordance with the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law.


Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law leads us to Christ because it was given to teach us how to know and be like him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything that he taught and go back to doing what it reveals to be wickedness.

The law only grants the recipient the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

All that happens when you attempt to obey the law is the knowledge that you are evil.

 

[Soyeong]

The law only grants the recipient the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

All that happens when you attempt to obey the law is the knowledge that you are evil.

Sin is what is contrary to God's character, such as with unrighteousness being sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law because it was given to teach us how to be a doer of His character traits. The law can't give us knowledge of what is unrighteous without also giving us knowledge of how to be a doer of righteousness by contrast. God's law does not just give us knowledge of what is sin, but also teaches us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12).

 

[Soyeong]

Wrong =====if you want to argue about God's word ---do it with God not man


Hebrews 8:13

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition


13 When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use).

And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether.

I used God's word to support what I said, so my argument is not with God's word, but with your incorrect interpretation of it. If the Mosaic Covenant were made of no effect, so would be its promises, and God would be a breaker of His promises.

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if it is cumulative with it, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). One thing can only make another thing obsolete insofar as it has cumulative functionality, so a computer makes a typewriter obsolete, but does not make a plow obsolete. So the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). The fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His law, but with the people for not continuing in their covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), so the solution to the problem was not for God to do away with His law, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending us Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the law (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). The reason that God established the New Covenant was not so that we could be free to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place.

 

[studentoftheword]

Sin is what is contrary to God's character, such as with unrighteousness being sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law because it was given to teach us how to be a doer of His character traits.

You have a serious misunderstanding of what the Law was given for ------sin was never given to us by God to teach us how to be a doer of His Character traits ====whoever told you that you need to RUN FROM -----you obviously do not have the Holy Spirit guiding you with the truth of the Scripture---

I used God's word to support what I said, so my argument is not with God's word, but with your incorrect of it. If the Mosaic Covenant were made of no effect, so would be its promises, and God would be a breaker of His promises.

Your Quote here -------I used God's word to support what I said,

No -------you used your own wrong interpretation of the scripture you quoted to try and prove your Point =====

I gave you the Scripture ----straight from God's word and you don't believe God's word ----as it clearly states what it says -----a Kindergarten kid would have no problem understanding what this says ------

GOD"S WORD HERE ___HELLO ___HELLO anyone home there ------THE NEW COVENANT IS IN EFFECT TODAY --THE OLD HAS VANISHED AWAY ----DISAPPEARED -----THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS _____ VERY PLAINLY WRITTEN

GREEK WORD FOR OBSOLETE
Strong's Lexicon
palaioó: to make old, to become obsolete, to grow old

In the context of the New Testament, this idea is applied to the Jewish law and covenant, which were seen as being fulfilled and thus rendered obsolete by the new covenant through Christ.
This reflects the early Christian understanding of the transition from the old covenant, based on the law, to the new covenant, based on grace and truth through Jesus.


7 SCRIPTURE TO BACK IT UP --------all say the same thing -----for figure ------

Hebrews 8:13.
New International Version
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

New Living Translation
When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

English Standard Version
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Berean Standard Bible
By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

New King James Version
In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New American Standard Bible
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

I say ------

You are showing that you don't believe God's word --no matter what scripture you quote ----you can't believe some scripture and not other scripture ---as all scripture is inspired by God as the word says it is ------and Jesus is the Word ----

YOU EITHER BELIEVE ALL SCRIPTURE OR YOU BELIEVE NONE OF IT ______there is no believing one and not another ---you need the Holy Spirit to help you in your RIGHT INTERPRETATION of All of GOD"S SCRIPTURE

You can keep your DUPED INTERPRETATION ---but it will be just That DUPED ------

 

[studentoftheword]

All of God's Promises today are obtained by and through our Faith in what Jesus accomplished on the Cross for us -when you become Born Again all of God's promises are available to you ---and by and through the Holy Spirit helping us we are able to become more Christ like in our Faith walk with Christ ------

The law has nothing to do with us obtaining God's Traits ------that is just a fabrication of someone's mind ---

 

[Soyeong]

You have a serious misunderstanding of what the Law was given for ------sin was never given to us by God to teach us how to be a doer of His Character traits ====whoever told you that you need to RUN FROM -----you obviously do not have the Holy Spirit guiding you with the truth of the Scripture---

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) or with justice mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), which is because it is God's instructions for how to be a doer of those traits. Likewise, God's way is the way to know Him by being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in God's way by being a doer of justice and righteousness that the Lord might bring to Him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that He and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). This is also why Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments.

Your Quote here -

------I used God's word to support what I said,
No -------you used your own wrong interpretation of the scripture you quoted to try and prove your Point =====

I gave you the Scripture ----straight from God's word and you don't believe God's word ----as it clearly states what it says -----a Kindergarten kid would have no problem understanding what this says ------

GOD"S WORD HERE ___HELLO ___HELLO anyone home there ------THE NEW COVENANT IS IN EFFECT TODAY --THE OLD HAS VANISHED AWAY ----DISAPPEARED -----THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS _____ VERY PLAINLY WRITTEN

GREEK WORD FOR OBSOLETE
Strong's Lexicon
palaioó: to make old, to become obsolete, to grow old

In the context of the New Testament, this idea is applied to the Jewish law and covenant, which were seen as being fulfilled and thus rendered obsolete by the new covenant through Christ.
This reflects the early Christian understanding of the transition from the old covenant, based on the law, to the new covenant, based on grace and truth through Jesus.


7 SCRIPTURE TO BACK IT UP --------all say the same thing -----for figure ------

Hebrews 8:13.
New International Version
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

New Living Translation
When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

English Standard Version
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Berean Standard Bible
By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

New King James Version
In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New American Standard Bible
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

I say ------

You are showing that you don't believe God's word --no matter what scripture you quote ----you can't believe some scripture and not other scripture ---as all scripture is inspired by God as the word says it is ------and Jesus is the Word ----

YOU EITHER BELIEVE ALL SCRIPTURE OR YOU BELIEVE NONE OF IT ______there is no believing one and not another ---you need the Holy Spirit to help you in your RIGHT INTERPRETATION of All of GOD"S SCRIPTURE

You can keep your DUPED INTERPRETATION ---but it will be just That DUPED ------

That is a false dichotomy, though I believe all of Scripture, though there is a lot of OT Scripture that you don't believe. We both have interpretations of Hebrews 8:13 and my interpretation is in accordance with Hebrews 8:10 and other parts of Scripture while your interpretation is not.

 

[studentoftheword]

We both have interpretations of Hebrews 8:13 and

No ---there is only one interpretation ---and the Scripture is clear on what it says ----there is no other interpretation for Hebrews 8:13 -----


your Grasping at straws -----trying to be right when your WRONG

YOUR QUOTE HERE
my interpretation is in accordance with Hebrews 8:10 and other parts of Scripture while your interpretation is not.

And Satan has your DUPED ---

 

[Inquisitor]

Sin is what is contrary to God's character, such as with unrighteousness being sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law because it was given to teach us how to be a doer of His character traits. The law can't give us knowledge of what is unrighteous without also giving us knowledge of how to be a doer of righteousness by contrast. God's law does not just give us knowledge of what is sin, but also teaches us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12).

Romans 7:21-24
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur
with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war
against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Your a prisoner of the law of sin and death.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 7:21-24
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur
with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war
against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Your a prisoner of the law of sin and death.

In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was waging war against the law of his mind, that held him captive, and which he served with his flesh. Furthermore, he said that the Law of the Spirit of Life has set us free from the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life. I've been arguing in favor of obeying the Law of God and against the law of sin and death whereas you have been arguing in favor of obeying the law of sin and death and against the Law of God.

 

[Soyeong]

All of God's Promises today are obtained by and through our Faith

While I agree that the only way to attain the promises is by faith, the content of what is promised is in regard to obeying God's law. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of Go is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heavens, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their hearts by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless then in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they did that.

In John 8:56, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law.

in what Jesus accomplished on the Cross for us -when you become Born Again all of God's promises are available to you ---and by and through the Holy Spirit helping us we are able to become more Christ like in our Faith walk with Christ ------

The law has nothing to do with us obtaining God's Traits ------that is just a fabrication of someone's mind ---

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to God's law are not born again, and in Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law.

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's character, which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so it is contradictory to want to become more like Christ while not wanting to follow his example of expressing God's character traits in obedience to God's law. I agree that God's law has nothing to do with us obtaining God's character traits, but rather the claim that I supported is that it is God's instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits.

And Satan has your DUPED ---

I've taken the position that followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance the example that Christ set for us to follow, you have taken the position that we should rebel against obeying what God has commanded, and you think that I am the one duped by Satan?