GRACE VS LAW OR GRACE WITH LAW ?

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GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#61
Dude. You mean for nearly all of the New Testament?

How are we to know whether to "shout from the roof tops" or to "go into our rooms and shut the door" if not for the Spirit? It's all Biblical but the Word is never preached in season without those who are sent to preach it.

The alternative is to get general morality instruction through the stories of historical people.
I prefer "Groovy", but the NT is the Spirit's revelation OF GW/Scripture, NOT "without".

Whether one shouts or prays does indeed depend upon one's spiritual gifts and the Spirit's leading.

Historic stories can be instructive, but teaching passages are more so, since that is their intent.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#63
How would this fulfill the law?
“To fulfill the law” means “to cause God’s will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo).

If you could keep the law. you could save yourself and Jesus would have stayed in heaven
That doesn’t follow, but rather the opposite is true. The Gospel is based on the premise that we can keep God’s law because there would be no point in calling for us to repent from transgressing it if we couldn’t keep it.

In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, but if we couldn’t turn from doing what God’s law reveals to be wickedness, then the promise would have never been made and Jesus would not have been sent.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God’s law is not too difficult for us to keep, that keeping it brings life and blessings while not keeping it brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we can’t keep.

Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible if people who did keep God’s law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so keeping God’s law has nothing to do with saving ourselves, but rather God graciously teaching us to keep His law is part of His gift of salvation.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to keep it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not keeping it and we couldn’t have salvation if we couldn’t keep it.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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#64
“To fulfill the law” means “to cause God’s will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo).
To fulfill the law is to not break even one command.

When God gave the law he made the children of Israel confirm every word. and confirm they would keep every command and not break one.

Thats why James said if we keep the whole law yet stumble in even one point. we are guilty of all

a person who commits one sin has failed to keep the law and needs saved.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#65
To fulfill the law is to not break even one command.

When God gave the law he made the children of Israel confirm every word. and confirm they would keep every command and not break one.

Thats why James said if we keep the whole law yet stumble in even one point. we are guilty of all

a person who commits one sin has failed to keep the law and needs saved.
Where did you get that definition and why are you rejecting the definition from the NAS Greek Lexicon? According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it as it should be. Moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. Likewise, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another’s burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so we are fulfilling it any time that we do that. Furthermore, there is much discussion in other Jewish writings about how to fulfill the law in regard to how to correctly do what it instructs.

God’s law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it did not require us to have perfect obedience and someone can continue to be a doer of the law by acting in accordance with those instructions and repenting. In James 2:1-11, he was addressing people who had committed the sin of favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep it, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to not pick and choose which laws to follow because breaking any of them makes them a lawbreaker. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to fulfill the law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not fulfilling it.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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#66
Where did you get that definition and why are you rejecting the definition from the NAS Greek Lexicon? According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it as it should be. Moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. Likewise, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another’s burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so we are fulfilling it any time that we do that. Furthermore, there is much discussion in other Jewish writings about how to fulfill the law in regard to how to correctly do what it instructs.

God’s law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it did not require us to have perfect obedience and someone can continue to be a doer of the law by acting in accordance with those instructions and repenting. In James 2:1-11, he was addressing people who had committed the sin of favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep it, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to not pick and choose which laws to follow because breaking any of them makes them a lawbreaker. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to fulfill the law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not fulfilling it.
so you have loved your neighbor 24/7 your whole life I take it?

If you did you have fulfilled the law. Christ is no value to you. You have saved yourself.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#67
so you have loved your neighbor 24/7 your whole life I take it?

If you did you have fulfilled the law. Christ is no value to you. You have saved yourself.
I don't claim to have perfect obedience to God's law, but to fulfill the law you just need to correctly do what it instructs. When a husband is fulfilling his marriage vows he is correctly acting in accordance with what he has vowed. God's law was never given as a means of saving ourselves, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that He is saving us from not being a doer of it.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,645
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#70
When I have not kept it, then I have repented.
you can repent all you want.

You have not kept it

The only way to redeem your sin is blood.

Either Jesus paid your debt, or your stick paying it on your own.. which you will fail
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#71
you can repent all you want.

You have not kept it

The only way to redeem your sin is blood.

Either Jesus paid your debt, or your stick paying it on your own.. which you will fail
The fact that I have not kept God's law perfectly does not mean that I have never kept it. The reason why we should obey God's law had nothing to do with trying to pay the penalty for our sin on our own. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,645
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#72
The fact that I have not kept God's law perfectly does not mean that I have never kept it.
Again you fail to see the point

James makes it clear. If you kept the whole law, yet even stumble in one point. your guilty of all

If you break one command, you have failed to keep the law. and are judged by the law as guilty.

the law was given to prove your guilt. Not to how you how to live,.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,197
932
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#73
The debate surrounding grace, works, and salvation often leads to confusion, especially when we try to understand the relationship between God's sovereign grace and human responsibility. A common view, held by some, is that salvation is entirely God's work, with no contribution from humanity. This view is rooted in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasize that salvation is a gift from God, "not of works, so that no one can boast."

On the surface, this perspective seems compelling because it highlights God’s complete and unmerited grace. However, while it is true that salvation is entirely the work of God, this view can sometimes lead to the mistaken belief that our response—our obedience to God—is unnecessary or even contradictory to grace. If salvation is already secured, some may argue, why would anyone need to do anything at all?

This is where the true power of grace comes into play. Grace, as revealed through Jesus Christ, doesn’t just save us—it transforms us. It gives us the ability, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to live according to God’s will and to obey His law. Romans 8:3-4 beautifully captures this dynamic: “For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son…in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Grace does not negate the law; it empowers us to fulfill it, not by our own strength, but through Christ’s strength within us.

This leads to the conclusion that faith and works are not in opposition, but are two sides of the same coin. We are saved by grace through faith, and the evidence of that salvation is seen in the way we live—by doing the works that God has prepared for us. James 2:17 reminds us, "Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." True faith will inevitably produce a transformed life—a life marked by obedience to God’s commands, not as a means of earning salvation, but as a natural response to the grace we’ve received.

The key misunderstanding in argument lies in the belief that the necessity of obedience to God’s law somehow diminishes the grace we receive. But in reality, it is through grace that we are given the capacity to obey. Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose.” Our ability to respond to God, to live according to His law, and to do good works, is all made possible through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Another critical point to address is the role of human will in salvation. Grace is indeed a gift, freely offered, but it must be received. God’s grace does not automatically apply to everyone; it requires our active response. Revelation 3:20 captures this truth: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in…” God offers salvation, but He does not force it upon us. We must choose to accept His grace, and in that choice, we are then enabled to live out His will.

In essence, there is no conflict between law and grace, just as there is no contradiction between works and faith. Grace is not a license to sin, but the empowerment to live righteously. Salvation is not by works, but it results in a life of works, as the believer is transformed and made capable of fulfilling God’s commands. It’s not that we are passive recipients of salvation who do nothing in response; rather, salvation by grace leads to an active life of faith and obedience.

So, the message is clear: Grace and works are not opposites. They are intricately linked. Grace saves us, faith receives it, and works are the fruit of the salvation we’ve received. The law is not abolished; it is fulfilled in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. True faith, empowered by grace, will always lead to a life that reflects God’s character.

Ultimately, God's grace is not something that removes human responsibility but rather enables it. Salvation is a divine gift, and while we cannot earn it, we are called to receive it with a heart that is transformed by His love. As we receive grace, we are empowered to live according to God’s will, and it is through this obedience that the glory of God’s salvation is made evident in our lives.
Re "This leads to the conclusion that faith and works are not in opposition, but are two sides of the same coin.": This is a good analogy as long as one begins with faith/heads up and does not flip it.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
976
135
43
#74
Again you fail to see the point

James makes it clear. If you kept the whole law, yet even stumble in one point. your guilty of all

If you break one command, you have failed to keep the law. and are judged by the law as guilty.

the law was given to prove your guilt. Not to how you how to live,.
If you break any law and become a lawbreaker, then you need to repent and return to obedience, which is precisely what James was encouraging them to do. His point has nothing to do with saying that the law only proves our guilty, not how to live, so you are taking that verse out of context.