Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both

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Edify

Well-known member
#142
Jan 27, 2021
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#142
Musicmaster said:
Are you now without sin? Are you not still a sinner, each and every day? Where's the line over which one can allegedly step to allegedly lose salvation? Do you know where it is? There seems to be lots of people out there who think THEY know where it is, but I can't get them to define it.

To say that ALL the epistles allegedly written to us all, that is not at all the case, and deeper study of scripture bears this out.

You cannot be saved by your works, nor can anyone maintain salvation by works. James wrote to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel. That gospel is no longer over us today. To say that it is over us today is to also claim that your sins were remitted by way of water baptism as was preached by Peter in Acts 2. That is NOT what we are under today. Believing otherwise is to believe another gospel that was not written TO us.

That is not to say that Peter should be accursed, for he spoke the truth that pertained to Israel at that time. It was TO THEM.

Paul, THE apostle to the Gentiles and the mystery given to him that remained hidden in God until revealed to Paul, and the Gospel given only to him and no other man until him, THAT is what is TO us today.

Going back under the works-based gospel will not obtain salvation for anyone today.

MM
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I will not continue this because you will say anything to have the last word.
 
Musicmaster

Musicmaster

Well-known member
#143
Feb 8, 2021
1,446
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#143
Edify said:
I will not continue this because you will say anything to have the last word.
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Sorry you feel that way...to use a false accusation as a conversation ender, but it is with you what it is. Hope that someday you will change your mind and engage a meaningful conversation when having a better day perhaps.

MM
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#144
Apr 7, 2014
25,785
13,708
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#144
Edify said:
Romans 6:16
New American Standard Bible
Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

The proof of faith is obedience. Some say we don't need obedience because we're forever saved. But that is a lie, for obedience is taught all thru the NT.
All those scriptures you can find on obedience is negated by some. This is sin. Deliberate sin. Those who believe they can set aside obedience will also be wrong on other biblical teachings as well.
DO NOT BELIEVE THEM.
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In regard to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness.

When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart (not just with the head) one believes unto righteousness.

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
 
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Edify

Well-known member
#146
Jan 27, 2021
1,719
733
113
#146
mailmandan said:
In regard to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness.

When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart (not just with the head) one believes unto righteousness.

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
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How can a righteous man prove himself? You will know him by his fruit.
A fruitless person is a useless person. They are gathered like sticks, & thrown into the fire.
You can't have fruit unless you're planting something. eh?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#148
Apr 7, 2014
25,785
13,708
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#148
Edify said:
How can a righteous man prove himself? You will know him by his fruit.
A fruitless person is a useless person. They are gathered like sticks, & thrown into the fire.
You can't have fruit unless you're planting something. eh?
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Nobody is arguing for a fruitless faith. We show our faith by our works (James 2:14-18).but we do not establish it by works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#149
Jan 13, 2016
17,537
3,775
113
#149
Edify said:
How can a righteous man prove himself? You will know him by his fruit.
A fruitless person is a useless person. They are gathered like sticks, & thrown into the fire.
You can't have fruit unless you're planting something. eh?
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What works? How much works? For how long?
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#150
Aug 22, 2014
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#150
John146 said:
What works? How much works? For how long?
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The works the Lord does through you after we are born again. It differs from person to person. Eternity.

He gets all the credit, because it's only by His power they are done. We have nothing to boast about, and they come AFTER salvation, not "for" it. As a result of in gratitude.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#151
Jan 13, 2016
17,537
3,775
113
#151
Jimbone said:
The works the Lord does through you after we are born again. It differs from person to person. Eternity.

He gets all the credit, because it's only by His power they are done. We have nothing to boast about, and they come AFTER salvation, not "for" it. As a result of in gratitude.
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However, there are some believers who have very little works. We all will be judged for our labor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Some will get rewards for a job well done, others will suffer the loss of rewards.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#152
Aug 22, 2014
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#152
John146 said:
However, there are some believers who have very little works. We all will be judged for our labor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Some will get rewards for a job well done, others will suffer the loss of rewards.
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I couldn't agree more. Fits perfectly with everything I said. I was just answering the questions you posed, but agree 100% with you here.
 
Musicmaster

Musicmaster

Well-known member
#153
Feb 8, 2021
1,446
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#153
It's very easy to overlook the blessings of grace Gentiles have all enjoyed since the fall of Israel:

Romans 11:12-15
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The crux of all this is the failure of preaching the truth about Israel's fall, in that there was a long delay to the beginning of the tribulation and the Kingdom so that Gentiles could enter in without having to join with Israel as was the case in times past.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is so wonderful what the gift of God's grace has done for us all.

MM
 
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