That's a gnostic idea. Many gnostics thought it didn't matter what they did and could never be lost because they were spiritual by nature.
Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both
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That's a gnostic idea. Many gnostics thought it didn't matter what they did and could never be lost because they were spiritual by nature.
It can't be both.
Salvation is by grace alone.
Justification is by grace alone.
But because of our faith in grace, our works do not become void.
Even the Devil believes in the grace and goople of Jesus. Satan understands and believes in the process of justification.
Faith without works is dead.
If you claim to be a child of Jesus, and live like a child of Satan you are not being true to yourself and living a lie.
If you claim to love God but your actions show that you love to sin more. Your works reveal your heart.
True our works do not save us or earn salvation but they do reveal our heart and reveal our faith and reveal our much we know and love Jesus.
I can claim the grace all day but unless my heart and works are in accordance with those claims they are lies..
God judges the heart.
Rom 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Can God be both JUST, JUSTICE, and GRACEFUL, MERCY, At the same time?
Justice = Justice is a concept that people should be treated fairly, the enforcement of the rule of law. The quality of being fair, impartial, or just.
Just conduct, management, or treatment.
Grace = The free and unmerited favour of God, undeserved favor. Grace cannot be earned; it is something that is freely given.
The law and principle of God is ....
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Rom 8:2 ..... the law of sin and death.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
All have sinned and the law demands that we all die. The law that God enforced...
Justice demands that we die.
Justice demands the death of the sinner.
But God is also merciful and gracious.
Does God's grace make the Justice void???
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How can God give us eternal life without making the Justice void.
Is God unjust???
Justice = Justice is a concept that people should be treated fairly, the enforcement of the rule of law. The quality of being fair, impartial, or just.
Just conduct, management, or treatment.
Grace = The free and unmerited favour of God, undeserved favor. Grace cannot be earned; it is something that is freely given.
The law and principle of God is ....
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Rom 8:2 ..... the law of sin and death.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
All have sinned and the law demands that we all die. The law that God enforced...
Justice demands that we die.
Justice demands the death of the sinner.
But God is also merciful and gracious.
Does God's grace make the Justice void???
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How can God give us eternal life without making the Justice void.
Is God unjust???
Actually, I don't believe you can quote me ever saying such a thing, given that I don't hold such a belief. The faith without works thing as being dead, that was not written to us. That was written to Israel as you can see in James 1:1. I am an Israeli by birth, but am in the body of Christ, which is the only thing that matters today.
Amen
I see that there is discussion about differences between faith and belief. Where it's true there are those who acknowledge that Christ did indeed exist as a historical fact, many want nothing to do with Him. People such as Dawkins will admit that Jesus existed, but fail to embrace the Deity of Christ Jesus. His salvation would only become a reality, by promise, if and only if Dawkins would believe in the outflow of salvation from the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ Jesus. Only then would he be saved by grace through faith in that accomplishment for us.
Works, then, as an additional result of the salvation gifted to us by God's grace through faith, are that which stores up treasures of reward in Heaven, period. That is my meaning behind my analogy of the cart before the horse. When people put that proverbial cart in front of the horse, in that works are what triggers some bestowment of the grace of salvation, that simply is a false teaching within many denominations around the world.
I hope that has clarified my previous statements.
MM
I haven't read the whole thread, only the title; so here's my view of grace and works. First off, a scripture: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 If the question is: How are we saved? Of course it's grace; but grace will always produce good fruit and good works in a person who has faith. It's just as James said: Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Grace and works go together like hand and glove. Someone who isn't changed and doesn't produce good fruit obviously has not really received God's grace or hasn't understood it. People don't usually change overnight; but if a person is walking in God's grace, they will increasingly bear good fruit.
Greeting unto each of you in the blessed name of our Savior Jesus Christ who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We today have been deceived and mislead concerning our knowledge and understanding of Christ Jesus and the Holy Bible. We adhere to teachings, customs and traditions that defy and oppose the Commandments and teachings of Jesus Christ who declared to the religious leaders and people of those days, 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of Yahweh/Jehovah, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.13 Making the word of Yahweh/Jehovah of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. We blasphemy Yahweh/Jehovah's name through our ignorance in calling Him our Lord and refuse to acknowledge or proclaim the Holy name of our Father Yahweh/Jehovah which if we examine the Bible Yahweh/Jehovah is very direct and clear concerning the importance of us as His children professing and declaring His name. Jesus Christ says in the book of John 17: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
We also refuse to accept or conform to the 4th Commandment of which says Keep the Sabbath. Instead, we adhere to that which was enforced and decreed by the Roman Catholic Church in 326 and adopted by the Protestant churches in the 1500s of which is the keeping of The Lord's day Sunday. This my brethren is not a biblical teaching and in fact is strongly opposed by Luke the author of Hebrews, who says, "For if Jesus had given them Rest or another Sabbath would he not afterward have spoken of another day. "
Thus saith Yahweh/Jehovah, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my REST? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith Yahweh/Jehovah: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.24 Yahweh/Jehovah that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Master of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;27 That they should seek the Yahweh/Jehovah, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: It's time for us to awake from sleep and come out of these false Churches and become the True Church of Christ. We have allowed the devil to deceive us and have received his Mark 666 through our conformity to World Government, the Educational system and most importantly Organized Religion. I'm not here to debate for I'm certain to that which I'm addressing here and am here only to edify, admonish and reprove the world that we might destroy the strongholds of Satan and bring his world dominion to its end. This can ONLY happen through the teaching and preaching of the TRUE GOSPEL of which Satan has perverted. He has also established through false leaders mass deception throughout the world through false religion, and as long as we continue to adhere to these false means we're going to continue to perish and live in deception and lies.
We also refuse to accept or conform to the 4th Commandment of which says Keep the Sabbath. Instead, we adhere to that which was enforced and decreed by the Roman Catholic Church in 326 and adopted by the Protestant churches in the 1500s of which is the keeping of The Lord's day Sunday. This my brethren is not a biblical teaching and in fact is strongly opposed by Luke the author of Hebrews, who says, "For if Jesus had given them Rest or another Sabbath would he not afterward have spoken of another day. "
Thus saith Yahweh/Jehovah, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my REST? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith Yahweh/Jehovah: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.24 Yahweh/Jehovah that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Master of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;27 That they should seek the Yahweh/Jehovah, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: It's time for us to awake from sleep and come out of these false Churches and become the True Church of Christ. We have allowed the devil to deceive us and have received his Mark 666 through our conformity to World Government, the Educational system and most importantly Organized Religion. I'm not here to debate for I'm certain to that which I'm addressing here and am here only to edify, admonish and reprove the world that we might destroy the strongholds of Satan and bring his world dominion to its end. This can ONLY happen through the teaching and preaching of the TRUE GOSPEL of which Satan has perverted. He has also established through false leaders mass deception throughout the world through false religion, and as long as we continue to adhere to these false means we're going to continue to perish and live in deception and lies.
“Real work ocurs in those Saved by the grace of God through the work of His Holy Spirit.”
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“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. “
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
Titus 2:11-15 KJV
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? …..For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
James 2:17-18, 20, 26
The 'you are preaching a license to sin' line, ignores the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believers spirit.
With that presence, if a believer gets into sin.. they WILL experience conviction and rebuke from Him.
They may also, if they are part of a church, experience discipline from that church.
God may also take their life..bring them home..to discontinue their sinful ways.
Just because the consequence of hell isnt for the believer, doesnt mean there are NO consequences.
With that presence, if a believer gets into sin.. they WILL experience conviction and rebuke from Him.
They may also, if they are part of a church, experience discipline from that church.
God may also take their life..bring them home..to discontinue their sinful ways.
Just because the consequence of hell isnt for the believer, doesnt mean there are NO consequences.
Sadly, people who insist eternal Salvation is a license to Sin confuse new Christians and misrepresent the actual Gospel Jesus died to seal for eternity.
That did not and does not apply to us today. James wrote that to Israel. See James 1:1. That was not written to the body of Christ.
In a manner of speaking, but some claim that those who allegedly were ever truly saved and live like the devil thereafter...lose their salvation. That clearly does not happen, and I have challenged them to show me one person they can say ever did that very thing, and I have yet to hear from any of them that they knew anyone who had.
That would be cause to question as to if they EVER truly believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. For anyone to say that anyone can lose their salvation, that clearly is a belief in works-based salvation.
MM
I am an Israeli, and if you want to "keep the sabbath" as do my brothers who are known as Messianic Jews, then go for it, but keeping the Sabbath will not avail you anything in relation to salvation, for if you are going to claim required obedience to any one point of Law, then you are beholden to keep ALL the Law, and no man can do that successfully.
MM
James wrote that TO Israel, not the body of Christ. See James 1:1.
What applies to us today is what you quoted from Ephesians.
Additionally, we do not have to 'maintain' our salvation, for we are sealed by Holy Spirit. True faith and salvation will always provide for the means to store up treasures in Heaven by way of the works the Lord does through us.
Nobody can lose their salvation if ever they truly had it. Those out there who claim one can lose their salvation are those who stand in support of of the false doctrine of works-based salvation.
MM
This isn't the first time the church has had to deal with people who call themselves Christians who hold this belief
"... they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that physical substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of behavior in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the physical actions in which they may be involved."
Irenaeus in Against Heresies 1.6.2 regarding the beliefs of the Valentinian gnostics
True. Christians hold to Gods grace gift covenant and seal of irrevocable Salvation. And for good cause. Because Jesus died to seal that covenant for all eternity.
While Catholics hold faith in the church that says that's not true.
Iraneus was obsessed with assaulting Gnosticism. He was also a Catholic.
And said this in his book Against Heresies, Book 3
"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
You make it sound like there's a problem with that. Thank God he was so diligent to document their beliefs so we can guard against their heresy
There is a problem with that. He grossly exaggerated Gnostics beliefs. In other words, he lied.
That's bearing false witness,a sin.
Re-Considering Irenaeus and His Problem with the Gnostics
by Shirley Paulson, PhD
"His primary methods for retaining followers centered around attacking competing practices, and he developed aggressive methods for doing so. Among other things, he employed what we now refer to as strawman tactics – misrepresenting his enemies’ theological intent, and then attacking that misrepresentation.
For example, Irenaeus claimed his gnostic enemies hated the God of Genesis, the creator of the world, and centered many of his attacks on that claim. But in fact, now that we can read the writings themselves, we can see those claims from Irenaeus were quite misleading. All of the different groups who relied on gnosis for salvation indeed shared with Irenaeus the same belief in the unity and goodness of God, the God of Genesis.
Irenaeus’s goal to prove the gnostics wrong
In order to make his claims, he completely ignored the Secret Revelation of John‘s full commitment to the Genesis Creator God of chapter 1.
The Unity is a monarchy with nothing ruling over it. . . . It cannot be made perfect as though it were deficient and only required perfecting. Rather It is always totally perfect. . . . It is the blessed one who gives blessedness, the understanding which gives understanding, the ever good one who gives good, the one who does good. (transl. King, 4:2,11, 37)
The reality was quite different from Irenaeus’s assertions."
Source: http://earlychristiantexts.com/irenaeus-and-the-gnostics/#:~:text=The big mistake Irenaeus left in history&text=In doing so, he grossly,!,” he falsely declared.