Gospel Confusion...

[Ouch]

Nor what you spout makes it true.

Fyi, I don't spout ANYTHING I just repeat HIS word, I didn't die for you.

If you have a problem with HIS word, that is between you and him.

In order to understand we have to rightly divide HIS word.

We also MUST be humble, not adding to HIS word of taking away everything has to fit like a giant puzzle.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John JESUS walked with us.
Acts the building of the church.
All books after that were letters to those who have been saved with the foundation of the book of Acts. ON THE MEAT so to speak and off of the milk.

JESUS said this,
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

When JESUS was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 he said this.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

HIS words, can't ENTER heaven without being born of water and of spirit PEROID.

Verse 6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So HE also separates natural from spiritual which eliminates those who think when he says water means our natural birth. Our natural birth gives us our sins, spirit birth gets rid of them.

Now lets look at what HE told his disciples in Acts which lines up with John 3:3-5.

JESUS told HIS disciples,
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Notice baptized with water and baptized with the Holy Ghost, John 3:5 said can't enter with out being born of water and of the spirit.

This happened AFTER THEY OBEYED,
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is what Peter says happens when you get the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

JESUS says this is what happens when you get the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

JESUS said in Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This was that message that JESUS promised to be preached.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, Matthew 21:25
King James Version
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you have the ability to debate using HIS word and not just telling me what the deal is?

Are we still born in sin?

Do we have to get rid of sin to be reborn?

If so how do we get rid of our sins?

If not why?

That you ignored the scripture I quoted in almost all those posts, each of which speaks for itself, you're asking the wrong question.

MM

 

[Ouch]

That you ignored the scripture I quoted in almost all those posts, each of which speaks for itself, you're asking the wrong question.

MM

Did you share scripture? I just seen you talking.

 

[Musicmaster]

Did you share scripture? I just seen you talking.

Wow. That is some selective vision. With some people in some messages, it is just conversation, but most of my posts with you have had scripture in them.

MM

 

[Ouch]

That you ignored the scripture I quoted in almost all those posts, each of which speaks for itself, you're asking the wrong question.

MM

Can you answer these questions?

Are we still born in sin?

Do we have to get rid of sin to be reborn?

If so how do we get rid of our sins?

If not why?

Why didn't the thief need to be baptized?

 

[Musicmaster]

Can you answer these questions?

Are we still born in sin?

Of course. Every person apart from Christ was born in sin. There were, and never will be, any exceptions apart from Christ.

Do we have to get rid of sin to be reborn?

No. We can't "get rid of sin." Who has ever become sinless? You? Do you believe you have no sin?

If so how do we get rid of our sins?

Death of this body. When we rise up from this dead body at the point of death, THAT is when we are free from this body of death.

If not why?

You need to read Paul's discussion about this:

Romans 7:14-20
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [See that? Paul was speaking present tense, and he as an APOSTLE of Christ to the Gentiles.]
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [This is so clear, and yet some out there claim it's cryptic. Notice the present tense of it all, not past tense as if he were no longer a sinner as a saved man who was born again at that time.]
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [See that? Even Paul admitted that sin still dwelt in him. Do you think you have no sin? If so, that's a problem that you alone will have to answer, not me.]
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

There are those out there who kick against the boulders only to smash their own toes to think that being born again with a new nature did away with the old. Those who say Paul was not yet born again...that level of foolish indifference to reality portrayed within the scriptures only betrays their carnality governed by a Pharisaical spirit. I once knew a fella who claimed he was living in sinless perfection in this life...never mind that he was still smoking three packs a day against the health of his own body and cussing like a sailor.

Why didn't the thief need to be baptized?

There's no right answer to the wrong question. It has nothing to do with his NEED to be baptized. He was not able to show his faith by obeying Peter's command for water baptism, which was indeed an element of the Kingdom Gospel that Israel was under at that time and beyond until the fall of Israel as Jesus told about in Luke 13. He demonstrated his faith in Christ through his words to the Lord. He started out mocking Christ, but his change of heart and faith went through a change that evidenced to Christ his faith, to what, as you know, Christ stated that the thief would be with Him in paradise that very day.

Some out there might think the Lord said to the thief in paradise, "Ooops! Hold on. This is paradise, but that didn't mean I was going to let you in. You weren't water baptized. You didn't come down off that cross to be baptized, so I can't possibly let you into paradise, but only to stand out there looking it over."

Some out there have quite an imagination that runs utterly contrary to the written word and a recognition that the Lord is intelligent enough to understand the thief could not show his faith through water baptism. Why anyone would think otherwise, that only speaks to their carnality in faith and knowledge.

If your "pastor" has taught you contrary to what Paul actually said in the quote above, then I would walk away from that guy (or woman if you have a female "pastor" over you, which clearly is anti-scripture). He knows nothing of what he's talking about. Read the scriptures for what they SAY, not by what others teach. Ignoring the tense of those scriptures is nothing but intellectual dishonesty, and I've encountered those in the past who are that far gone in their beliefs.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Correction, it was John the Baptist and later Christ who commanded them to be water baptized. Jesus never said one word about the cross in His gospel He preached, and neither did the eleven after His crucifixion until Peter addressed His death in Acts 2...and even then He did not say that the Death of Christ was their means to salvation.

Acts 2:36-38
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter preached, after Pentecost, the Kingdom Gospel of repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. It wasn't until Paul's Gospel of Grace, as revealed only to him in that first revelation of the mystery hidden in God from the beginning of creation, that water baptism no longer was commanded for remission of sins and unto salvation. That so many Evangelicals ignore this as a result of the instruction from their false teaching pastors that they gravitate more and more over into Calvinistic (also called "Reformed") nonsense.

The imagery Jesus painted in Luke 13 remains a mystery to those who fail to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

 

[homwardbound]

When false teaching pastors jam into the portion of the text what was done AFTER salvation, that's a creation of doctrine that the text simply doesn't support. Pagan pastors do that kind of crap to the text all the time, and drag along with them their blind followers, thus the blind leading the blind. Leave that to them and the pagan pastors who teach such falsehoods to them by which those followers BOAST about their baptismal WORKS.

Leave boasting to the pagans!

MM

Let the dead take care of the dead. thank you MM as I just got the meaning of that being said to that person with the excuse to bury his Dad frist. I see, saw this deeper now more than ever

 

[Ouch]

Correction, it was John the Baptist and later Christ who commanded them to be water baptized. Jesus never said one word about the cross in His gospel He preached, and neither did the eleven after His crucifixion until Peter addressed His death in Acts 2...and even then He did not say that the Death of Christ was their means to salvation.

Acts 2:36-38
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter preached, after Pentecost, the Kingdom Gospel of repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. It wasn't until Paul's Gospel of Grace, as revealed only to him in that first revelation of the mystery hidden in God from the beginning of creation, that water baptism no longer was commanded for remission of sins and unto salvation. That so many Evangelicals ignore this as a result of the instruction from their false teaching pastors that they gravitate more and more over into Calvinistic (also called "Reformed") nonsense.

The imagery Jesus painted in Luke 13 remains a mystery to those who fail to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

So glad you say we are born in sin, thank you.

WE CAN'T GET RID OF THEM???

Funny, you know this verse and yet you say we can't get rid of them??

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1. what do you think of those? If they don't apply now tell me how and where you get your information.

You say,
"Death of this body. When we rise up from this dead body at the point of death, THAT is when we are free from this body of death."

2. Can you share where your getting your information? From HIS word? Please share it.

I'm a little confused, you told me how we get rid of our sins above then the question was if we don't have to why not.

Is Paul telling his church they don't have to get rid of sins? I sure don't see that.

The thief, there is a right answer.

3. when did the thief die and when did baptism in JESUS name start?

FYI, I don't speak of my pastor, I ONLY SHARE HIS WORD.

3 questions please.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No one in was saved under OT law?

Nope thats what the word says

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

The law required perfection. Thats why Paul called it a tutor..

No one? strange, not even the theif?

Nope. he was saved the same way abraham was. His faith

We are saved by grace, tell me what a person has to do to be reborn.

Jesus told us.. did you miss it?

John 3: 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Just like abraham did (Gen 15 with romans 4) just like the thief did and just like we are

Keep in mind, JESUS said we CAN'T ENTER without being born of water and of spirit.

Amen, And read above, He told nicodemus HOW to be born again

How do we get rid of our sins? Or don't we have to?

Its called being justified. its called having our sins imputed to christ and Christs righteousness imputed to us.. Its called salvation by grace through faith

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Do you have the ability to debate using HIS word and not just telling me what the deal is?

Are we still born in sin?

Do we have to get rid of sin to be reborn?

If so how do we get rid of our sins?

If not why?

NOT water baptism.

If water baptism removes out sin and regenerates us, then no OT believer is saved

 

[Ouch]

Nope thats what the word says

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

The law required perfection. Thats why Paul called it a tutor..



Nope. he was saved the same way abraham was. His faith


Jesus told us.. did you miss it?

John 3: 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Just like abraham did (Gen 15 with romans 4) just like the thief did and just like we are



Amen, And read above, He told nicodemus HOW to be born again


Its called being justified. its called having our sins imputed to christ and Christs righteousness imputed to us.. Its called salvation by grace through faith

When NT rules were started OT laws were done with.

So you think Abraham was saved by his faith and nothing to do with his actions of obedience?

The question was, "We are saved by grace, tell me what a person has to do to be reborn."

You shared, John 3:10-18

YOU FAILED to answer the questions WHAT DOES A PERSON HAVE TO DO TO BE RBORN?

The question, "How do we get rid of our sins? Or don't we have to?"

Your reply,
Its called being justified. its called having our sins imputed to christ and Christs righteousness imputed to us.. Its called salvation by grace through faith

Can you back all of that up with HIS word.

 

[Ouch]

NOT water baptism.

If water baptism removes out sin and regenerates us, then no OT believer is saved

I'm confused? Since getting rid of our sins via being baptized in JESUS name didn't start until the book of Acts what does that have to do with OT being saved?

They had a different way to get rid of there sins.

What do you think water baptism is for?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

When NT rules were started OT laws were done with.

OT laws never saved anyone.,

So you think Abraham was saved by his faith and nothing to do with his actions of obedience?

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

The question was, "We are saved by grace, tell me what a person has to do to be reborn."

You shared, John 3:10-18

YOU FAILED to answer the questions WHAT DOES A PERSON HAVE TO DO TO BE RBORN?

The question, "How do we get rid of our sins? Or don't we have to?"

Your reply,
Its called being justified. its called having our sins imputed to christ and Christs righteousness imputed to us.. Its called salvation by grace through faith

Can you back all of that up with HIS word.

lol

Jesus told us what we have to do. In John 3. Sorry bud.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Nice try though

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm confused? Since getting rid of our sins via being baptized in JESUS name didn't start until the book of Acts what does that have to do with OT being saved?

They had a different way to get rid of there sins.

What do you think water baptism is for?

You confused?

How was abraham saved. You will be saved the same way

Rom 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

 

[GWH]

Synonyms for “saved” include: elect (Matt. 24:22,24&31) = disciples (Matt. 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (John 3:3&7) = believers (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (Acts 9:32, Rom. 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (Acts 11:26, 26:28) = saved (Acts 16:30-31) = those in Christ (Rom. 8:1, Eph. 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (Rom. 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (Rom. 8:14-21) = the grafted in (Rom. 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1Cor. 1:2) = God’s people (1Cor. 16:1) = church/saints (2Cor. 1:1 = the faithful/holy (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:2) = chosen in Christ (Eph. 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (Eph. 2:19) = soldier/worker (Phi. v.2&24) = WHOSEOVER WILL MAY (REV 22:17)

 

[Ouch]

OT laws never saved anyone.,


Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”



lol

Jesus told us what we have to do. In John 3. Sorry bud.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Nice try though

So just reading those verses saves you? If you want to stick with that fine with me.

I would ask you, if that is true and we can't enter heaven with sin how do we get rid of it?

But I already asked that question.

Best of luck.

You confused?

How was abraham saved. You will be saved the same way

Rom 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

I

I'm only confused by your statement. Not what saved Abraham.

 

[Ouch]

You confused?

How was abraham saved. You will be saved the same way

Rom 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Are you saying on on in the OT was saved, from Gen to Malachi?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So just reading those verses saves you?

No they do not save you/.

But they do prove you to be in error

If you want to stick with that fine with me.

I would ask you, if that is true and we can't enter heaven with sin how do we get rid of it?

But I already asked that question.

Best of luck.
I

I'm only confused by your statement. Not what saved Abraham.

Your confused because you want to add your work of righteousness to your salvation. You expect God to save you based on a work you did.

You failed to read the words of paul..

rom 4: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

I mean if you want to work. feel free. I will wish you luck

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are you saying on on in the OT was saved, from Gen to Malachi?

the same way your saved.

By grace through faith. not of works lest anyone should boast