Gods will vs mans free will
- Thread starter jacko
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No, it does not! Mankind had the best federal head to represent us since Adam and Eve were not encumbered with a sin nature. In fact, Adam for certain was born spiritually alive unto God since God breathed his Spirit into him and he became a living soul. None of us came into this world enjoying those benefits.
Secondly, if God lowered his moral standards to accommodate sinners then this would indicate that God's character is imperfect and indeed not absolute. In fact, if God lowered his standards this would be akin to Him to being a worldly Situational Ethics advocate. And who could implicitly trust such a god!?
Thirdly, by you presuming that the "dead" have spiritual ability to obey God you refuse to see the helpless estate of man. And why would God need to rescue man if man is spiritually capable of helping himself?
Yeah...well the "Jesus saves" slogan is fine -- until you get to the pesky details in which you find the devil. As stated previously, there's lots of religious garbage in print and art. For example, not too long ago on another thread I mentioned the very well known graphic design that appears on many car bumpers or rear windows: The graphic depicts the Cross and it says = Love which is depicted with big read heart. I'm sure most of us have seen those little graphic stickers. The problem with the graphics is that the symbol is merely a half truth; for scripture teaches that the Cross of Christ also demonstrates his JUSTICE! But to this day, I have never seen any graphic display portraying that truth.
You say, "He supposed (sic.) died for everyone but his atonement itself doesn't save anyone. In order for Christ's atonement to be qualitatively universal, it would need to be efficacious."
Christ's atonement IS universally efficacious. Everyone's sins are atoned for by the death of Christ. Christ's atonement is quantitatively and qualitatively universal. He has atoned for absolutely everyone's sins; and He has atoned for absolutely every sin. The Father is no longer angry with anyone over their sins.
The Father has handed over all judgment to the One who atoned for our sins. The Father will judge no one.
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Act 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Yes, I believe that you are right, in that, those that Christ died for on the cross have eternal and everlasting life in heaven, but that was God's choice, and not our choice.
Choosing life here on earth is a choice that is made by only those that have been born again.
You say, "He supposed (sic.) died for everyone but his atonement itself doesn't save anyone. In order for Christ's atonement to be qualitatively universal, it would need to be efficacious."
Christ's atonement IS universally efficacious. Everyone's sins are atoned for by the death of Christ. Christ's atonement is quantitatively and qualitatively universal. He has atoned for absolutely everyone's sins; and He has atoned for absolutely every sin. The Father is no longer angry with anyone over their sins.
The Father has handed over all judgment to the One who atoned for our sins. The Father will judge no one.
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Act 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
If Christ's death is efficacious for all then each and every person in the world is saved. No one has anything to worry about on Judgment Day; for Christ's dying for all means he actually saves all.
.
Eternal Life and Immortality are not synonymous, viz: they're not two ways
to say the same thing so that it can't be said that eternal life is immortality,
or vice versa; no, eternal life and immortality are two distinctly different
conditions; and having the first doesn't necessarily indicate having the
second because eternal life pertains to spiritual characteristics whereas
immortality pertains to physical characteristics; for example:
Jesus had eternal life when he was here (John 5:26 & 1John 1:2) but he
didn't obtain immortality till his resurrection (Rom 6:9, Rev 1:18) Likewise,
folks correctly unified with Christ have eternal life here (John 5:24) but they
won't obtain immortality till their resurrections. (Rom 8:23-25, 1Cor 15:51-54)
The possession of eternal life is extremely crucial because card-carrying Christians
lacking eternal life are also lacking unity with God's son, i.e. they are quite literally
christless Christians.
● 1John 5:9-13 . .We accept human testimony, but God's testimony carries
more weight because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about
His son. . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and
this life is in His son. Whoever has the Son has the life; whoever who does
not have the life, does not have God's son.
The reality is: christless Christians are in a very grave spiritual situation.
● Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
_
Eternal Life and Immortality are not synonymous, viz: they're not two ways
to say the same thing so that it can't be said that eternal life is immortality,
or vice versa; no, eternal life and immortality are two distinctly different
conditions; and having the first doesn't necessarily indicate having the
second because eternal life pertains to spiritual characteristics whereas
immortality pertains to physical characteristics; for example:
Jesus had eternal life when he was here (John 5:26 & 1John 1:2) but he
didn't obtain immortality till his resurrection (Rom 6:9, Rev 1:18) Likewise,
folks correctly unified with Christ have eternal life here (John 5:24) but they
won't obtain immortality till their resurrections. (Rom 8:23-25, 1Cor 15:51-54)
The possession of eternal life is extremely crucial because card-carrying Christians
lacking eternal life are also lacking unity with God's son, i.e. they are quite literally
christless Christians.
● 1John 5:9-13 . .We accept human testimony, but God's testimony carries
more weight because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about
His son. . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and
this life is in His son. Whoever has the Son has the life; whoever who does
not have the life, does not have God's son.
The reality is: christless Christians are in a very grave spiritual situation.
● Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
_
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
Genesis 1:27
this includes our mind and heart which forms our desires and will , it should be a reflection of gods holy image that’s what man is meant to be and what Christ is restoring through imparting the gospel to a believers mknd n hewrt changing rhier Will back to his right and good will free of course but not desiring evil
“in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV
hearing and believing the gospel changes our minds beliefs and information back to the lords mknds and heart making us his own image and glory as man was created originally to be
What I’m saying is god is through bekieving the gospel changing our Will and actions if we don’t resist to make our Will like his good and right and holt and free
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Philippians 2:12-13
God wants us to choose him freely choose freely his ways which are best for man
Sure does seem that way. Crickets since I asked for some scripture to back up their "claim". Which I don't really like saying claim because they really make no definitive statements or case, they just like to tear down what others say that they disagree with, yet never build a case for their views.
How can you ask for "any sculpture that says we are born slaves of sin", then seem to imply that we are born sinless. Really? I always thought that being born fallen was Christian 101. That because of the fall of Adam we are ALL born into the fallen state, with no hope of ever being able to save ourselves from it. So it kind of baffles me to find people disagreeing with this fact, demanding scripture that says these things a specific way while never even offering a single scripture that would back up the view they suggest, yet don't seem to really proclaim with confidence, that men are born sinless, that we start life in 100% tip top shape as we were created to be. Not one. So fast to jump in and teach others why they're wrong, but can't be bothered to teach why you're right. Just another perspective to think about.
He was made in the likeness of men, in fashion as a man.
Philippians 2:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Honestly it comes down to pride because they feel like they didn't need any help at all from God to decide to believe in Him and love Him despite all the things that Scripture says about the natural man and so they project their beliefs about themselves being good enough as they were onto the rest of humanity and say Hey I didn't need God's help and neither does anyone else although some MAY have needed His help... I have seen that said... throw the man-made "doctrine" of free will into the mix, the denial that EVERYONE requires a new heart, and you have quite a mess being promoted by people like @HeIsHere
Exactly! Many professing Christians do not believe they are helpless and in need of divine rescue. They have all the power they need to give God the green light. This power they call "free will".
And man is made in his image . God doesn’t “ need “ to repent but he does repent by his nature of goodness and mercy . If you notice in tbat first mention of repentance by God it is mans sin and violence against one another and the state of mankind’s sinful hearts and minds , that causes God to grieve for creating them and then repent and decide to destroy them all because of thier sin and wickedness not his own
it shows a connection between mankind’s action on earth and Gods heart in heaven as he watches what we do with the earth and life he gave to us we caused God to grieve and repent for creating man on earth
man needs to repent for our own sin , God repented because of our sinand what it causes in earth and mankind’s nature
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:5-7 KJV
this is literally God grieving because of what mankind , who he had created for life and good , had become now just ten generations after eating the fruit in eaten and having its deadly knowledge of good and evil in conflict.
And this then causes him to repent and change course to destroy man that he had created because tbey had become wicked and corrupt at heart free Will plus good and evil doesn’t bring man to life but to death. The knowledge of Gods word is what man is created for the knowledge of Christ in the gospel that gives us life eternal by his promises to believers
But instead mankind partakes of good and evil and dies as God foretold in Eden.
And now the good and evil has corrupted thier minds and hearts so that they now do violence and kill and harm and abuse everything and everyone else God has created for love and peace and paradise to dwell with us in the body of Christ in earth instead we made it a world of corruption and violence where the ones who do right , are victimized the weak and helpless are used and abused
“And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:12-13
We are a really important part of Gods creation in that he’s made us to be the people he will spend eternity with but man corrupted everything by sin and this then caused God to repent over creating man in earth because we corrupted his very good creation
But in many ways he’s made everything for mankind in Christ Jesus so he can dwell forever with us in a perfect world eventually. Instead of us men having possession like in tbe ot
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
Psalm 115:16 KJV
Now jesus the son of man and son of God
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
Matthew 28:18 KJV
instead of corrupt men having dominion now a perfect man and those who follow him have dominion through his name and purpose ordained before men fell in Eden and manifest to all in the gospel
.
FAQ: Was Jesus born with normal blood or with God's blood?
REPLY: Jesus was put on track to take David's throne.
● Luke 1:31-33 . .You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are
to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of
the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and
he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.
Candidates under consideration for David's throne have to be-- first and
foremost --one of his natural descendants.
● Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn
from it: "Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"
The New Testament verifies Jesus is the fruit of David's body spoken of in
that oath.
● Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us
unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn
with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.
● Rom 1:3 . . . His son; descended from David according to the flesh
The thing is: according to Lev 17:11, the life of the flesh is in the blood. So if
the life in Jesus flesh had been due to God's blood instead of David's blood,
then Jesus' flesh wouldn't have been David's flesh; and Jesus would've failed
to qualify for David's throne.
* One of the oldest creeds in Christianity states that Jesus is fully God and
fully Man. Well that creed would be grossly mistaken if something other than
natural blood was in Jesus' flesh. Plus: on numerous occasions Jesus
referred to himself as "Son of Man" which, likewise, would be patently false
were natural blood not in his flesh.
FAQ: If true that Jesus' was virgin conceived, then from whence did he
obtain a Y chromosome for his male gender if not from Joseph?
REPLY: In the beginning, Eve's entire body-- inside and out, front to back,
top to bottom, and side to side --was constructed with material taken from
Adam's body. (Gen 2:21-22) So if God could construct an entire woman
from material taken from a man's body, then it shouldn't be too difficult for
Him to construct a teensy little chromosome from a woman's body.
The beauty of it is that a Y chromosome constructed with material taken
from Mary's body wouldn't be an alien substance created ex nihilo; but
would be 100% natural, and easily traceable all the way back to Eve, and
from thence to the very dust that was used to construct Adam's body.
I sincerely believe that what I posit herein actually took place when the
power of the Most High overshadowed Jesus' mom per Luke 1:35; and if my
thoughts are true, then Jesus was thoroughly a Jew-- and not only David's
and Abraham's natural descendant, but also a natural descendant of the Man
that God created in the book of Genesis.
The bottom line is Jesus came into the world not as a divine man, but
instead he came as a Jewish man. In point of fact; it was absolutely
essential for Jesus to come into the world as a Jewish man instead of a
divine man. (Gen 49:10 & Rom 8:3)
NOTE: According to 1John 4:2-3, one of the salient characteristics of the
spirit of antichrist is refusal to believe Jesus was a normal man.
_
FAQ: Was Jesus born with normal blood or with God's blood?
REPLY: Jesus was put on track to take David's throne.
● Luke 1:31-33 . .You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are
to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of
the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and
he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.
Candidates under consideration for David's throne have to be-- first and
foremost --one of his natural descendants.
● Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn
from it: "Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"
The New Testament verifies Jesus is the fruit of David's body spoken of in
that oath.
● Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us
unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn
with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.
● Rom 1:3 . . . His son; descended from David according to the flesh
The thing is: according to Lev 17:11, the life of the flesh is in the blood. So if
the life in Jesus flesh had been due to God's blood instead of David's blood,
then Jesus' flesh wouldn't have been David's flesh; and Jesus would've failed
to qualify for David's throne.
* One of the oldest creeds in Christianity states that Jesus is fully God and
fully Man. Well that creed would be grossly mistaken if something other than
natural blood was in Jesus' flesh. Plus: on numerous occasions Jesus
referred to himself as "Son of Man" which, likewise, would be patently false
were natural blood not in his flesh.
FAQ: If true that Jesus' was virgin conceived, then from whence did he
obtain a Y chromosome for his male gender if not from Joseph?
REPLY: In the beginning, Eve's entire body-- inside and out, front to back,
top to bottom, and side to side --was constructed with material taken from
Adam's body. (Gen 2:21-22) So if God could construct an entire woman
from material taken from a man's body, then it shouldn't be too difficult for
Him to construct a teensy little chromosome from a woman's body.
The beauty of it is that a Y chromosome constructed with material taken
from Mary's body wouldn't be an alien substance created ex nihilo; but
would be 100% natural, and easily traceable all the way back to Eve, and
from thence to the very dust that was used to construct Adam's body.
I sincerely believe that what I posit herein actually took place when the
power of the Most High overshadowed Jesus' mom per Luke 1:35; and if my
thoughts are true, then Jesus was thoroughly a Jew-- and not only David's
and Abraham's natural descendant, but also a natural descendant of the Man
that God created in the book of Genesis.
The bottom line is Jesus came into the world not as a divine man, but
instead he came as a Jewish man. In point of fact; it was absolutely
essential for Jesus to come into the world as a Jewish man instead of a
divine man. (Gen 49:10 & Rom 8:3)
NOTE: According to 1John 4:2-3, one of the salient characteristics of the
spirit of antichrist is refusal to believe Jesus was a normal man.
_
This is Christianity 101. The Armins and Calvin's have perverted the gospel!
ALL people believe that they are "good to go" And have no need for a Savior........That is why God sent His Son and His Gospel. God gave ALL men the green light to see their folly. He hides His Gospel from no man. The Lord Jesus Christ is fully accessible to ALL. Whether it be in a negative context or a positive context.
Mankind would NEVER choose God, So He sent His visible and accessible testimony to mankind.........The Lord Jesus Christ. And it is blasphemous against God to say that man can't choose what He has revealed to us.
John 3:16~~Acts 16:31.....Period.
Definitely agree with that Magenta but now think that God really would love all to repent and be saved. To me it seems depriving Satan and his cohorts of our company in hell would be to his glory.
Jesus’ words in John 6:65
Currently thinking there are two tiers to Salvation, i heavily leaned to Calvinism as a brand new believer but to me, there are too many Scriptures suggesting Jesus died for all who repent and believe in him. Still think some have been directly chosen, like the Apostles were but that he will save others who show real potential at some point and are worth the effort to him.
Still attending infant school when it comes to spiritual knowledge, what i've said seems reasonable to me currently but could well change with more knowledge.
I think it goes without saying that Jesus died for those who repent and believe in Him ... I mean do we really have to say that at this point? LOL. PS - I am not a Calvinist. Never was... But you will see me opposing the idea that man has a will that is free, for that goes directly against what Scripture says on the matter. I also oppose the idea that man = the natural man, is able to choose to love God when he is hostile in his mind toward him. Scripture explicitly says it is God working in us to will and to do His good purpose. But you will see people opposing this truth...
"But you will see me opposing the idea that man has a will that is free, for that goes directly against what Scripture says on the matter."
So agree with that Magenta, most people seem to believe they do but if you think about it, what on earth do we truly have free will in right now? I hear so much about it but don't think it exists and yes, it's impossible for us to achieve salvation ourselves. Think it was Paul who said that he had to lead his body as a slave despite being saved, the Puritan John Owen wrote several books on how difficult it is for the newly saved.
Apologies for the delay, had to put my reply on hold as my neighbour needed a hand. All sorted and Mr Sandman is calling me, hugs and blessings for now.