God and Time
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so God does not natively inhabit space or time, but exists outside of it
how can space and time be a property of something which it is wholly separate from?
the scriptures present to us God as both immanent and transcendent.
so i'm not really sure what's happening in this thread.
It‘s a thread where we can have a little coffee, shoot a little pool, play a little bowling, but some people can’t play so we play with ourselves.
PaulThomson said:
3. the place where God's throne is established, the space outside of the time-space continua, but also immanent within all space time continua and within which all time-space continua and their contents rest. God's throne is in the third heaven
Is that really what you think i said?
3. the place where God's throne is established, the space outside of the time-space continua, but also immanent within all space time continua and within which all time-space continua and their contents rest. God's throne is in the third heaven
Is that really what you think i said?
You're trying to have it both ways, but missing the geometry. You said, rightly, that heaven, where God dwells, is outside of space-time.
That being the case His essence cannot be of space-time. He is Spirit, and He nevertheless took on the form of a man.
I did not say God is outside of space-time. Please, read more carefully. I said outside of all space-time continua, etc.
Absurdities:
Is everyone aware we're debating the application of a term that no one has even defined?
How can we say "time does this or that", if we don't even know what time is?
(I seldom talk to people who can offer an adequate definition of "time." And it's a very serious thing to debate a term we can't define, and haven't studied. If we were actually to be serious about any of this, we'd need an entire thread discussing time itself, before we can even begin to discuss what's God's relationship to it might be. We cannot know God's relationship to a thing, if we don't know what the thing is.)
1.) In many circumstances, merely defining a word properly will ANSWER all the questions surrounding it.... the definition often IS the solution.
2.) If we cannot define a word properly, we have ZERO ability to debate it, because we quite literally have NO IDEA WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
More things to think about.
God Bless.
.
Is everyone aware we're debating the application of a term that no one has even defined?
How can we say "time does this or that", if we don't even know what time is?
(I seldom talk to people who can offer an adequate definition of "time." And it's a very serious thing to debate a term we can't define, and haven't studied. If we were actually to be serious about any of this, we'd need an entire thread discussing time itself, before we can even begin to discuss what's God's relationship to it might be. We cannot know God's relationship to a thing, if we don't know what the thing is.)
1.) In many circumstances, merely defining a word properly will ANSWER all the questions surrounding it.... the definition often IS the solution.
2.) If we cannot define a word properly, we have ZERO ability to debate it, because we quite literally have NO IDEA WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
More things to think about.
God Bless.
.
"God did not create time" is not in the Bible either.
Well technically if he’s both , then the greater excludes all the argument for the lesser on this discussion lolthe scriptures present to us God as both immanent and transcendent.
so i'm not really sure what's happening in this thread.
if he’s transcendent …then he’s beyond even if he chooses to come into our little world and box
The present model of our universe is that it temporally has a beginning and it will have an end; that our unverse's space is limited and curved, so that If one traveled in the same direction through a universe, eventually one will arrive at the same place one left from. Our universe is essentially a bubble of curved space with limits, that has a finite temporal duration. This bubble is called a space-time continuum. The theory is that there may be many other space-time continua scattered throughout a larger space and independent of one another.
No. if He is both, then He exists both beyond our space-time continuum AND within it. That is, He is everywhere. If He were only outside of our spave time continuum, He would not be in it, and would not be everywhere. If I ascend to heaven, God is there. And if I descend to sheol, God is there. There is nowhere I can escape God's prsence. So scripturally, He is both beyond our limited space-time universe and within it.
"God is from everlasting to everlasting" says God has infinite temporal existence. A day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day, says that God experiences existence over time, but because his existence is limitless, 1000 of our years seems a short time to God, like a day to us. Scripture does not say everlasting to everlasting is as the blink of an eye to God, which it could say, if all of time, past,, present and future, were encompasses by God in an instant.
“for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
i think ( just my opinion ) it’s a concept that’s constructed right here , and could not have existed as a concept before this
“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.”
Hebrews 11:3 NIV
meaning
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And God said let there be …….And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ( how can the concept of what we know as time exist before the earth begins to revolve around the sun ? and we see the first day of this concept “time” )
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ( these are the first expressions of time )mad he’s creating the universe and ordering it time seems to be a result of the order he is establishing to me just my thought ) and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. ( he’s speaking these things )
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”
Genesis 1:1, 4-5, 14-15, 17-18 KJV
Time seems to be a construct of the order we see Hod establishing in his creation for mankind to eventually be created in and rule over in an ordered way
Bit once the darkness is divided out then
“On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.”
Revelation 21:25 NIV
day and night first day , …last day Jesus returns .no more night eternity
right if he is transcendent but chooses to come into mans realm to save us he is still transcendent . That’s my point . He’s just come into the mess with us to save us.
listen though I’m not trying to make you agree or even tell you I’m right I’m just telling you my opinion is God crates the universe and without the workings of the universe time could not exist in even a concept . My opinion is it is a concept for mortality to recognize the value of immortality created in the beginning when he set forth motion in tbe universe
just what I think is reasonable God created everything so if time exists makes sense ot was created by God . But you could be right brother I’m just discussing the thought in the thread here
The understanding of infinity is endless without beginning or end right ? It’s for immortality
bit the concept of time in my opinion , is more about a beginning as sort of running to a destination expiration . It is for mortality to recognize the value of immortality when they hear it
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16 KJV
what I’m saying is to me this is times frame
“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”
Genesis 1:5 KJV
“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:54 KJV
And I see time as everything in between this first day and last day everything after and before eternal
the scriptures present to us God as both immanent and transcendent.
so i'm not really sure what's happening in this thread.
The doctrines of immanence and transcendence don't specifically address the temporal mechanics of how God goes about the business of being eternal, and thus the specific ways in which he does, or does not, interact with what we call time.
So it's great to bring this up, and it does give us some guardrails, but I don't think it acts as an immediate defeater for either side of the topic.
God Bless.
.
There are many observable beginnings and endings that limit the duration of things, where we easily recognise that there is time was time before that beginning and there will be time after that end. The beginning of football game is when the ref blows the starting whistle, and the end is when he blows the final whistle. Time itself does not come into existence when the start whistle is blown, nor does it end when the final whistle is blown. I cannot see any logical reason to assume that time itself began for God when God began creating our particular world.